This will start some

[RichP]

Yep your right, get used to it. You need oil just as much as everyone else. Just think what its going to be like when the supplies really start to run out. Lets see what Russia, China, India start to do then. All that wonderful oil just off our coasts, is that still territorial water? All that oil in Alaska, that Russia is still pissed about selling it to us so cheap.

I remember a book I read around 65 or so called 'Under Pressure', it was by Frank Herbert or Asimov, not sure, but that was the world situation in that book. It was an interesting submarine book by the way...

 

[Tom R.]

If you research a bit more...

There's a novel idea!

I think Mike writes history books for our public school system. Revisionist historian.

Now to be fair, he did get a few things right.

 

[RichP]

There's a novel idea!

I think Mike writes history books for our public school system. Revisionist historian.

Now to be fair, he did get a few things right.

No, he's pretty fair, it's tough to say things sometimes as the history revisionists have already started rewriting the history books. The 73 oil thing was fake as all get out, mainly by the oil companies both government and corporation oil companies, the press and media sucked it right down, the media not only plays on fears they also get played, how much you want to bet the Russian invasion causes oil prices to jump on monday and EU won't do anything for fear they will get their LPG cut off from the Russians. Revised history only works after all the people who were there and saw it are dead but then history revisionists plan for the long term.
I have to laugh at the number of documents that are still classified from the civil war and WWI, they must have some interesting stuff in them to keep them classified for 200 years.

 

[Ecomike]

Regan (and advisors) finally outspent the Russians and all but ruined there economy, that was the end of it for while. Though Russia is back on it's feet now and flexing it's muscle.
If Detente had continued and Russia had the breathing room to regroup, no telling what would have happened. Likely they would have rearmed and reconstituted in half the time.
You're right though, there is still an argument going on, whether he helped or hurt. Regan sure enough saw an opportunity to make detente work for him and seems to have helped the old USSR to implode. It may have been the plan all along or just opportunity knocking.

Actually there was another factor involved in the colapse of the USSR. In that factor the USSR out spent us about 100:1 which actualy bankrupted them. In the mean time we funded Star Wars with what we saved and put them at a huge disadvantage. I am speaking of how the Carter & Reagan administration's CIA quitely and off budget destablized Afghanistan, tricked the Russians into moving troops into Afganistan, shipped Russian weapons previously captured from Egypt by Israel during a prior war, shipped from Israel to Pakistan, then from Pakistan to the Afgan mojahedin rebels fighting the Russians in Pakistan. The Saudie's helped finace it, and our CIA trained Bin Lauden who went to Afghanistan to train the Afghans for our CIA. We had no US weapons or troops there, just Arab and Israeli cooperation to help and arm the Afghan rebels with what they needed to bleed the Russian military into a Vietnam style defeat.

The afghans rebels shot down and wasted the Russian tanks and chopers with missles we supplied under the table, and the Russians lost tanks and chopers that cost roughly 100 times what the missles cost us.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/soviet-war-in-afghanistan

http://hnn.us/articles/1491.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

 

[8Mud]

Actually there was another factor involved in the colapse of the USSR. In that factor the USSR out spent us about 100:1 which actualy bankrupted them. In the mean time we funded Star Wars with what we saved and put them at a huge disadvantage. I am speaking of how the Carter & Reagan administration's CIA quitely and off budget destablized Afghanistan, tricked the Russians into moving troops into Afganistan, shipped Russian weapons previously captured from Egypt by Israel during a prior war, shipped from Israel to Pakistan, then from Pakistan to the Afgan mojahedin rebels fighting the Russians in Pakistan. The Saudie's helped finace it, and our CIA trained Bin Lauden who went to Afghanistan to train the Afghans for our CIA. We had no US weapons or troops there, just Arab and Israeli cooperation to help and arm the Afghan rebels with what they needed to bleed the Russian military into a Vietnam style defeat.

The afghans rebels shot down and wasted the Russian tanks and chopers with missles we supplied under the table, and the Russians lost tanks and chopers that cost roughly 100 times what the missles cost us.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/soviet-war-in-afghanistan

http://hnn.us/articles/1491.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

No argument here, pretty much how I remember it. It seems we spent more wisely than they did, with a little BS (exaggeration) about the effectiveness of the (proposed) missile defense shield thrown in.

I don't know about the part of us sucking the Russians into Afghanistan. Something that didn't get a lot of press in the west was that Iran was exporting Islamic fundamentalism right up the guts of the old USSR. They invaded as a pro active method to stem the tide, threaten Iran and possibly gain some year round ports in that part of the world. Pretty much the same reasons we are there now.
One thing that was never reported is that there was a German presence in the north west of Afghanistan before during and after the Russian invasion. Real politic in action. The Germans have some sort of mining venture in that area. Have had for a very long time. I've never been able to find out exactly what they are mining. But what isn't reported or general knowledge is often more telling than what is reported. Sometimes what isn't said, is more important than what is said. When people say look here and here and here, I have a tendency to look there and there and there.

 

[Ecomike]

For those of you who like movies, entertainment mixed with some history, Hollywood recently made a humorous fairly historical account of the this called "Charlie Wilsons War" starring Tom Hank and Julia Roberts, it is funny, cynical and sad at the same time. Quite a stirring movie in many ways.

"Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and Special Service Group (SSG) were actively involved in the conflict, and in cooperation with the CIA and the United States Army Special Forces, as well as the British Special Air Service, supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets. After Ronald Reagan became the new United States President in 1981, aid for the Mujahideen through Zia's Pakistan significantly increased, mostly due to the efforts of Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson and CIA officer Gust Avrakotos. In retaliation, the KHAD, under Afghan leader Mohammad Najibullah, carried out (according to the Mitrokhin archives and other sources) a large number of operations against Pakistan, where a rapid and unprecedented influx of weaponry, drugs and refugees from Afghanistan caused a near total collapse of civil society. Even today, the effects of this war are widely felt in Pakistan."

It also tells the story of how we screwed up Afghanistan by not spending any money to help clean up the remaining economic and social mess and Vacuum left behind when the Soviets left Afghanistan. A mistake we repeated under Bush Jr. when we moved into Iraq and failed to keep our promises of aid to Afghanistan the last 5 years. If we don't clean up the mess permanently in Afghanstan by rebuilding schools to educate the populous and create real economic opportunities for the hoards of unemployed there, it will eventually lead to very serious problems in Pakistan which does have nukes already!

I noticed from one of my last posted links, that even China helped arm the Afghan rebells in the 1980's. Wow, that was eye opener! No wonder China got less friendly with the USSR back then.

 

[fscrig75]

It also tells the story of how we screwed up Afghanistan by not spending any money to help clean up the remaining economic and social mess and Vacuum left behind when the Soviets left Afghanistan. A mistake we repeated under Bush Jr. when we moved into Iraq and failed to keep our promises of aid to Afghanistan the last 5 years. If we don't clean up the mess permanently in Afghanstan by rebuilding schools to educate the populous and create real economic opportunities for the hoards of unemployed there, it will eventually lead to very serious problems in Pakistan which does have nukes already!

Your statement about what we need to do in Afghanistan is the exact same reason we can't just up and leave Iraq.

Regardless about what anyone thinks, whether we should of went in or not went in, we are there. We can't just up and leave and hope for the best. We messed up with Afghanistan the first time and now we are back correcting our mistake. Is that what we want to do with Iraq?

 

[Ecomike]

This is from one of my prior posted links. Basically confirms what I have said about our own CIA training the Afghans in modern terrorist :explosion tactics.

"After the Soviet deployment, Pakistan's military ruler General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq started accepting financial aid from the Western powers to aid the mujahideen.[46] In 1981, following the election of United States President Ronald Reagan, aid for the mujahideen through Zia's Pakistan significantly increased, mostly due to the efforts of Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson and CIA officer Gust Avrakotos.
The United States, the United Kingdom and Saudi Arabia became major financial contributors, the United States donating "$600 million in aid per year, with a matching amount coming from the Gulf states."[47] The People's Republic of China also sold Type 56 (AKM) assault rifles and Type 69 RPGs to mujahideen in co-operation with the CIA, as did Egypt with assault rifles. Of particular significance was the donation of American-made FIM-92 Stinger anti-aircraft missile systems, which increased aircraft losses of the Soviet Air Force.[48]
In March 1985 the U.S. government adopted National Security Decision Directive (NSDD) 166, which set a goal of military victory for the mujahideen. After 1985 the CIA and ISI placed greater pressure on the mujahideen to attack regime strongholds. Under direct instructions from Director of Central Intelligence William Casey, the CIA initiated programs for training Afghans in techniques such as car bombs and assassinations and in engaging in cross-border raids into the USSR."

 

[8Mud]

I noticed from one of my last posted links, that even China helped arm the Afghan rebells in the 1980's. Wow, that was eye opener! No wonder China got less friendly with the USSR back then.

One of the main arguments (Kissinger) for not turning North Vietnam into a parking lot, was the Chinese and North Vietnam were exchanging artillery fire across there own DMZ in the North (with Russian artillery). Kind of like the cure being worse than the sickness type thing. De fang North Vietnam and you may be facing the Chinese.

The Chinese supporting the Afghanistan rebels, sounds like a pay back is a futher mucker type thing and entirely plausible.

What was that quote. "Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it".

 

[Ecomike]

Your statement about what we need to do in Afghanistan is the exact same reason we can't just up and leave Iraq.

Regardless about what anyone thinks, whether we should of went in or not went in, we are there. We can't just up and leave and hope for the best. We messed up with Afghanistan the first time and now we are back correcting our mistake. Is that what we want to do with Iraq?

That is correct, but staying in Iraq for 50 years, or even suggesting that we might wish to stay in Iraq for 50 years is only going to spawn more middle east terrorist attacks, and further destablize the region and the world, just as it did for the USSR in Afghanistan.

What is needed is a comprehensive UN stategy that involves everyone, including Syria and Iran, rapid retraining and rearming of an Iraqi army, indications to the world that we are willing to withdraw troops ASAP, and replacement of some of our troops if needed with UN security forces, but most of all we need to force the Iraqi people to reach internal political settlements that have dragged out in political stalemate since the invasion.

Otherwise Iraq will eventually turn into another Vietnam or Afghanistan.

 

[scottmcneal]

What is needed is a comprehensive UN stategy that involves everyone....



Good luck with that..

 

[Ecomike]

The estimate is more people died (as a result of) after our pulling out in 18 months than died in the previous ten years, due to the war (I've heard between 3 1/2 and 6 million). The dieing spread well beyond Vietnam's borders, all sorts of atrocities were perpetrated when the Sheriff was gone. The purges started as the war was winding down and continued for years.

Is there any proof of that? This is the first I heard of it.

 

[fscrig75]

That is correct, but staying in Iraq for 50 years, or even suggesting that we might wish to stay in Iraq for 50 years is only going to spawn more middle east terrorist attacks, and further destablize the region and the world, just as it did for the USSR in Afghanistan.

I agree, but I think the problem with the 50 year thing is that people believe thats what McCain wants. I believe he is saying if it takes that long to bring Iraq back around, we will not abandon them. People are taking what he said out of context. Yes it is exactly the same way people miss quote what Obama said about going into Pakistan, I did it too. He really isn't planning on going in there, just showing thats how determined he is about catching Osama.

What is needed is a comprehensive UN stategy that involves everyone, including Syria and Iran, rapid retraining and rearming of an Iraqi army, indications to the world that we are willing to withdraw troops ASAP, and replacement of some of our troops if needed with UN security forces, but most of all we need to force the Iraqi people to reach internal political settlements that have dragged out in political stalemate since the invasion.

Sorry I can't by off on the UN idea. The whole idea of the UN in the begining was a nice idea but it just doesn't work. Almost every place the UN has been involved in has gone to sh*t. They failed in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, Dafur and don't forget there is a small war going on right now in Georgia.

Gen Petraeus is getting the job done there now. He has recommended that we begin to pull out the surge troops, lets see how that works.

 

[8Mud]

Is there any proof of that? This is the first I heard of it.

It was fairly widely reported at the time, though the western news outlets of the day were almost universally liberal and underreported it. Pulling out of Vietnam Good, the consequences, well we will just not talk much about that right now. The actually numbers are anybodies guess. The British press reported on it a bit more, because many of the refugees were showing up in Hong Kong.
The boat people that got reported (or noticed), were likely just the tip of the iceberg. If you have that many people becoming refugees it's usually fear, that drives them. Pol Pot was killing off his own people at the time (millions), not a healthy place for South Vietnamese refugees, Laos was in North Vietnamese hands mostly.
I tend to believe it as factual, maybe inflated, maybe not.

 

[Ecomike]

Funny that Russia invaded Georgia a day after the ceremony closing the base near my house. The draw down in Germany is almost complete.

Just caught this on a re-read. They kept the draw down in Germany quite here. I find it interesting that Bush recently visited Georgia, and that the Russians invaded Georgia shortly before our US elections, and between the changing of the Guard here. They did the same thing timing wise, when they invaded Afghanistan. They invaded Afghanistan shortly before Reagan took office, and while Carter was busy with the Iran Hostage mess.

I did not realize conciously how many years the Iran - Iraq war, and the Afgan-USSR war overlapped each other. We were all so busy with problems with Cuba and SA at the time as well as the outfall of the oil bubble bust here in Texas (unemployment hit something like 70% in parts of Texas in the early 80's under Reagan) followed by the Reaganomics devastation / economic disaster that followed until 1986. I remember it got so bad here that 1000 college students were lined up for interviews for a single job at McDonalds one day in Austin.

 

[scottmcneal]

1000 college students



What is the key word here?
good morning mike

 

[8Mud]

Is there any proof of that? This is the first I heard of it.

Wiki
Events resulting from the Vietnam War led many people in Cambodia, Laos, and especially Vietnam to become refugees in the late 1970s and 1980s, after the fall of Saigon. In Vietnam, the new communist government sent many people who supported the old government in the South to "re-education camps", and others to "new economic zones." An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges or trials.[1] 165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-education camps, according to published academic studies in the United States and Europe.[1] Thousands were abused or tortured: their hands and legs shackled in painful positions for months, their skin slashed by bamboo canes studded with thorns, their veins injected with poisonous chemicals, their spirits broken with stories about relatives being killed.[1] These factors, coupled with poverty, caused hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese to flee the country. In 1979, Vietnam was at war (Sino-Vietnamese War) with the People's Republic of China (PRC), and many ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, who felt that the government's policies directly targeted them also became "boat people." On the open seas, the boat people had to confront forces of nature, and elude pirates.

In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge regime murdered millions of people in the "Killing Fields" massacres, and many attempted to escape.

 

[fscrig75]

What Kasern did they shut down now?

 

[Ecomike]

One of the main arguments (Kissinger) for not turning North Vietnam into a parking lot, was the Chinese and North Vietnam were exchanging artillery fire across there own DMZ in the North (with Russian artillery). Kind of like the cure being worse than the sickness type thing. De fang North Vietnam and you may be facing the Chinese.

The Chinese supporting the Afghanistan rebels, sounds like a pay back is a futher mucker type thing and entirely plausible.

What was that quote. "Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it".

VERY Interesting! I thought the Chinese were the major backers of the NV, or at least one of the major backers, at least from 68 to 72. Tell me more! Please!

 

[8Mud]

What Kasern did they shut down now?

Pioneer (Hanau) and most all of the surrounding Kaserns. They have been drawing down for years.