The Deal with all these "Retro" New Vehicles?

YELLAHEEP said:
img-15.jpg



There are those that would find this image disturbing, others that would jump for joy........ "new" Shelby's rolling off the assembly line.


when was that... that photo looks 1970ish. Didnt they make the shelbys 66-71?


guys seriously... if they made new 06 or 07 shelbys.. id be first on the list.
 
helix said:
when was that... that photo looks 1970ish. Didnt they make the shelbys 66-71?


guys seriously... if they made new 06 or 07 shelbys.. id be first on the list.
That picture is current. They do make those now. http://www.uniqueperformance.com/GT350SR-40th.aspx The cars are titled as Shelbys, and are listed in the Shelby registry.

Put your money where your mouth is.... ;)

-----Matt-----
 
drifto77 said:
Ya..... your right about the cost for a "REAL" 427 Cobra.
But still........
IF i had that kind of cash .... whats a "few" grand more?




Hope your not including the Cobra with those.
I'll let the numbers speak for themself........

The 427 Cobra
0 – 60 mph times of 3.8 seconds, 0 – 100 mph in 10.6 seconds, and 0 – 100 and back to a dead stop in less than 14 seconds.

Sounds to me like it stops ok.
Guess I just LOVE them Cobra's.
Always has been my #1 "Dream car".
Even though it is just an "OLD" car. ;)


Thats "0-100-0 in 11 seconds" and it took 7 seconds for the 100-0 part.

You can actually buy a 'new' 427SR, Carrol builds them in las vegas. Parts, body and frame are made in one of the old comblock countries. The factory that produces them was a former mig manufacturer and had been supplying parts for the shelby line since like 88 or so. You could even get some body parts in aluminum as long as you were happy with mig silver...as one of the mig engineers said 'Vats wrong vit silver'... Oh, the complete turnkey on a 427SR is between $65 and $85k last time I heard...they covered it when, I think it was 'rides', did the new cobra story.

As far as rebuilding a 60's camaro or firebird, "YearOne" now produces complete body shells w/subframe, saw it on spike this past sunday.. they also have plans on producing some others. www.yearone.com
 
RichP said:
Thats "0-100-0 in 11 seconds" and it took 7 seconds for the 100-0 part.

You can actually buy a 'new' 427SR, Carrol builds them in las vegas. Parts, body and frame are made in one of the old comblock countries. The factory that produces them was a former mig manufacturer and had been supplying parts for the shelby line since like 88 or so. You could even get some body parts in aluminum as long as you were happy with mig silver...as one of the mig engineers said 'Vats wrong vit silver'... Oh, the complete turnkey on a 427SR is between $65 and $85k last time I heard...they covered it when, I think it was 'rides', did the new cobra story.

You're thinking of Kirkham (http://www.cobracountry.com/kirkham/home.html), not associated with Shelby. You can buy cars from Shelby, though as well, either fiberglass or aluminum.

Ken Miles once drove a production Shelby Cobra 0-100-0 in 13.8 seconds, albiet with racing tires. Without, it was 14.5, still fast as hell.

-----Matt-----
 
you can actually buy an exact reproduction '69 camaro body now. not sure how much they are, but gotta be real expensive . i would love to have the big (3) carmakers in Detroit go back to building original Muscle cars,(for 40k with a big block of course) for no other reason than to see the look on the faces of rich boys who just spent a Quarter of a million bucks on a '70 hemi- cuda at Barrett -Jackson auction!!!!!!!! to answer the original question, old muscle cars are popular and expensive because of mid-life crisis, and excess money from the baby-boomer generation.
 
A good part of the problem, as I see it, is that people have gotten far too soft in the last dozen years or so.

Me, I like a little rough ride and some engine noise - it lets me know that I'm DRIVING and that the engine is RUNNING.

The reason I'll never buy a new car is that no-one makes one I really like! They're all imports, or wanna-be imports, with less engine noise than a well-built axle, and suspensions so soft I'd rather go to sleep on them than drive them.

There will always be (and should be!) a niche market for "pure muscle," I just think that no-one's equal to the task of building it anymore. Not in any real sense.

Throw in the EPA requirements and the FMVSS regs, and we'll never see "pure muscle" again unless both are rescinded in toto.

Endeth the sermon.

5-90
 
lockedstock94 said:
You're thinking of Kirkham (http://www.cobracountry.com/kirkham/home.html), not associated with Shelby. You can buy cars from Shelby, though as well, either fiberglass or aluminum.

Ken Miles once drove a production Shelby Cobra 0-100-0 in 13.8 seconds, albiet with racing tires. Without, it was 14.5, still fast as hell.

-----Matt-----

The ones they showed were not kit cars, these are built using the same new built parts, aluminum bodies, gonna have to dig around some.
 
I guess my final post will be with these points followed up by an article I found yesterday:

- GM and Ford are losing money. What they're doing now obviously ain't working. I guess they have a choice to continue to do what they're doing; making cars people don't care much about, losing market share, or take a chance and offer a bare bones muscle car to see what the reaction would be.

- The Hummers are a success and it ain't because of the cushy ride and awesome fuel effeciency.

Problem No. 1: Making cars people want.
Knight-Ridder Tribune Business News
18 December 2005
[What follows is the full text of the article.]

Byline: Don Hammonds

Dec. 18--Despite massive cost reductions, General Motors and Ford are destined to struggle because they aren't making cars consumers want, says Brad Marion, an automotive industry analyst and senior client partner in the Chicago office of Korn/Ferry International.

"I'm not hearing anybody express optimism when it comes to Ford and GM," Mr. Marion said in a recent interview.

"They're taking the cost-cutting steps" -- General Motors plans to cut about 30,000 jobs and close 12 plants by the end of 2008, including a West Mifflin stamping plant, while Ford is expected next month to announce that it, too, will cut up to 30,000 jobs and close at least 10 North American plants the next five years.

"But everybody knowledgeable about their future product pipelines is suggesting that the boost of adrenaline and hope that you should get from new products are not there," he said.

By contrast, the nation's No. 3 domestic automaker, the Chrysler unit of Daimler-Chrysler, has introduced the PT Cruiser, Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum -- creative, "must-have" products that Ford and GM lack, Mr. Marion said.

It's true that the world's largest automaker's Cadillac division "has done a good job," but the problem is that GM is "surrounded by a lot of other stuff that's mediocre at best," he said.

As for Ford, its Fusion has potential but the automaker's other products have fallen flat, Mr. Marion said. "I drove the Ford Five Hundred and it wouldn't be high on my list of cars to go out and purchase. It's blah."

The problem at Ford, he said, is that continual management changes have made it risk-averse. GM, on the other hand, is hobbled by its sheer size, which creates a sort of bureaucracy that makes it hard to change, Mr. Marion said.

Cost-cutting and capacity reductions will help but should have been done a long time ago, he added. "Shame on the United Auto Workers and the auto companies for not dealing with the business realities of this situation before now. They both have accountability in where things stand today."

Ford lost $2.1 billion on a pretax basis for the first nine months of the year, while sales at the No. 2 automaker dropped 4.6 percent and its domestic market share fell to about 18.6, down from 19.7 percent a year ago. GM has lost almost $4 billion the same period, while its sales were off 3 percent in the first 11 months of the year and its North America market share hit 25.6 percent, down from 28.5 percent a year ago.

Standard & Poor's last week cut its corporate credit rating, already at junk levels, by two more notches to "B" from "BB-minus."

"The downgrade reflects our increased skepticism about GM's ability to turn around the performance of its North American automotive operations," S&P analyst Robert Schulz said in a report.

"GM has suffered meaningful market share erosion in the U.S. this year, despite prior concerted efforts to improve the appeal of its product offerings." He added that "it is now dubious whether GM's new models, set to be introduced over the next year, can be counted on to help restore the company's North American operations to profitability."

To see more of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to http://www.post-gazette.com.

Copyright (c) 2005, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Distributed by Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News.
 
Yeah, that's a current day picture of a shop in CA (I believe) that is offering to take your Mustang "core" and turn it into an "Eleanor" or a Shelby knock off. That's why I posted it. The purists out there hate the place, others think the owner should reach sainthood for his gracious acts of rescue and restoration.

Personally, I lean toward the sainthood part - any saved classic is a good thing. I'm not a fan though of creating a new Shelby, giving it an identifier tag, allowing it to be entered onto the Shelby registry and calling it a true Shelby. Authentic Shelby clone maybe, but not a true Shelby. Kinda ridiculous that those new Shelbys fetch as much as they do on the market. But oh well.
 
BrianB said:
I guess my final post will be with these points followed up by an article I found yesterday:

- GM and Ford are losing money. What they're doing now obviously ain't working. I guess they have a choice to continue to do what they're doing; making cars people don't care much about, losing market share, or take a chance and offer a bare bones muscle car to see what the reaction would be.

- The Hummers are a success and it ain't because of the cushy ride and awesome fuel effeciency.

Problem No. 1: Making cars people want.
Knight-Ridder Tribune Business News
18 December 2005
[What follows is the full text of the article.]

Byline: Don Hammonds

Dec. 18--Despite massive cost reductions, General Motors and Ford are destined to struggle because they are run by imbeciles.

I took a bit of editorial license with that there article.

GM and Ford are run by imbeciles. That has been my position for most of my adolescent and adult life. Heck, Chrysler was run by an imbecile for a while. I'm sure the imbeciles will find a way to re-infiltrate DC some time soon. Be that as it may, it remains an economic fact that any new automotive product should involve the most minimal possible retooling. Heck, the Mustang was produced entirely from off-the-shelf parts, except for the dies to stamp the sheet metal. For the most part, any new product is going to be some degree of massaging what they already have. Given that I can't even fit into most of the new products, going back to a vehicle that will sit eight on two bench seats is quite a stretch.

Actually, the Hummer line isn't that big a success. That division's been bleeding money like a stuck pig for some time now.
 
YELLAHEEP said:
Yeah, that's a current day picture of a shop in CA (I believe) that is offering to take your Mustang "core" and turn it into an "Eleanor" or a Shelby knock off. That's why I posted it. The purists out there hate the place, others think the owner should reach sainthood for his gracious acts of rescue and restoration.

Personally, I lean toward the sainthood part - any saved classic is a good thing. I'm not a fan though of creating a new Shelby, giving it an identifier tag, allowing it to be entered onto the Shelby registry and calling it a true Shelby. Authentic Shelby clone maybe, but not a true Shelby. Kinda ridiculous that those new Shelbys fetch as much as they do on the market. But oh well.

Shelby's always been savvy. Licensing his tag makes good economic sense to him, I'm sure.
 
YELLAHEEP said:
Yeah, that's a current day picture of a shop in CA (I believe) that is offering to take your Mustang "core" and turn it into an "Eleanor" or a Shelby knock off. That's why I posted it. The purists out there hate the place, others think the owner should reach sainthood for his gracious acts of rescue and restoration.

Personally, I lean toward the sainthood part - any saved classic is a good thing. I'm not a fan though of creating a new Shelby, giving it an identifier tag, allowing it to be entered onto the Shelby registry and calling it a true Shelby. Authentic Shelby clone maybe, but not a true Shelby. Kinda ridiculous that those new Shelbys fetch as much as they do on the market. But oh well.


Shelby had unused VIN tags left over from the original 500 unit production run (verified unbuilt vehicles). After the heart transplant he relented and authorized construction of the unbuilt Cobras, with all profit proceeds going to charity. These are as real of a Shelby Cobra as you can find, and the Cobra clubs track the VIN's so no one tries to pass one off as a historic competition model. They carry a premium over a kit/clone, but less than a chassis with documented history.

Clones? Restorations? Claims by rebuilders? Where does it end?

Recently the Corvette Community policed an E-Bay auction claim ...

(Faked) L88 Corvette

Does the seller have a right to make a claim of authenticity, considering the dollars involved?

Can you imagine someone trying to fake/clone an original XJ (forty years from now) and could it be policed?

Yes, modern retro vehicles are usually better than the originals. One thing that struck me over twenty years ago was visiting Shelby's shop in Costa Mesa (CA) and his personal driver Cobra was highly modified. It was not an original restored Cobra but a modified improved version (modern brakes, engine mods, suspension) built on the old frame and body.

When a lightly modified ($20K stock plus $1000 in mods) Neon SRT4 can go 0-100-0 in less than 18-seconds it's hard to claim a modern car is not a better $/fun value (over a "classic" or clone).
 
lockedstock94 said:
Ironically, the SSR and the GTO ("the blunder from down under") were both produced based off public reaction to concept cars. The SSR concept was shown in 1999, and the GTO was Bob Lutz's way of plugging the leaking dike that is Pontiac. Both have been dissapointing in terms of sales. The Solstice GXP sure looks good, though!

-----Matt-----

In my opinion, Pontiac died 3 years ago when the Firebird/TA died.

Don't even get me started on the Solstice. My wife and I had decided on waiting for one, and considered putting money down, but bought elsewhere instead. Best move we made, avoiding the Solstice. A good friend of mine took delivery of his a few weeks ago and I got some seat time...

It has a plain interior, no trunk space, no leg room, no head room, and no balls. It is slower than the Nissan Sentra daily driver I got rid of a while back (and I'm not talking Spec-V). I was thoroughly disappointed.

Now the high performance version (which I assume is what you are referring to as the GXP) looks very appealing. Even next years 240 hp turbo version would be better, but the current model sucks.

A few months back I drove almost every convertible on the market; Z3 roadster, S2000, Toyota MR2, Mustang GT, etc. I would place the Solstice dead last in every category.

Now the S2000 on the other hand, was smoking. Quicker than quick. The Mustang was second, and I really like the mid engine MR2 in the cool department.
 
As much as I hate to say it the first company that comes out with a 55mpg 4 passenger, nice handling, attractive easy to work on box in the $15,000 range will make a killing. I don't know about any of you but when the mustang first came out my mom bought one, a 66 actually, 6cyl auto, a sports car it was not but it got good milage, she used to fill it once a week at $.17 a gallon and it got about 25mpg like the falcon and comet.
Gas just hit $2.50 a gallon here....it was $2.19 two weeks ago..
 
lockedstock94 said:
You're thinking of Kirkham (http://www.cobracountry.com/kirkham/home.html), not associated with Shelby. You can buy cars from Shelby, though as well, either fiberglass or aluminum.

Ken Miles once drove a production Shelby Cobra 0-100-0 in 13.8 seconds, albiet with racing tires. Without, it was 14.5, still fast as hell.

-----Matt-----

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com

I have been to Kirkham's plant. It is outside of Orem Ut. and is a pretty sweet setup. The bodies are hand made on old tooling in Poland and then shipped to his plant. It was about 7 years ago when I was there but he had 3 finished "Cobras" about 5 in process and 8 "raw" bodies stacked up. You would be hard pressed to find the difference between his original cobra and the ones he built. He is a pretty cool guy.
 
YELLAHEEP said:
Sure the new GTO doesn't have one single retro-bone in it's configuration, but I'll tell ya, you can't beat the Corvette inspired suspension, brakes and drivetrain in a 4 seater car that has interior comfort, fit and finish that mirrors a BMW - that's no joke there.

Yeah thats all great, but why name it the GTO? If they would have named it something else it would be an awesome car, instead its an awesome car that didn't really live up to people's expectations. I guess they just named it that for marketing purposes?

sorry if someone else brought this up, but i cant read through the whole thread when you guys write frickin books in your posts :)
 
91Limited said:
Yeah thats all great, but why name it the GTO? If they would have named it something else it would be an awesome car, instead its an awesome car that didn't really live up to people's expectations. I guess they just named it that for marketing purposes?

sorry if someone else brought this up, but i cant read through the whole thread when you guys write frickin books in your posts :)


The GTO has a name, the Holden Commodore (the modern GM counter to the age old GM Holden vs. Mad-Max Ford XC Falcon with Phase IV heads). It's quite a catchy name, Commodore, maybe Captain Ron would be attracted to the Commodore name ;) , but not too many folks in the USA would notice.

With the demise of the Camaro/Firebird (a bean counter CEO decision), GM needed a rear drive sport model to compete with the pony car Mustang. Holden (GM Australia) still builds rear drive cars and has a great package to exploit.

What makes a GTO? Is the mid-1970's Grand-Am body GTO a real GTO, and what about the Ventura/Nova body GTO (one year only, with Chebby 350 under the shaker hood)? Is the early 1965 Tempest GTO option a real GTO, or does it have to be the tried and true 389/400 without the Tempest badging? What about the 2-barrel 350 ci. GTO's, and the ones with a powerslide trans, and the wheezer post 1971 models? They account for quite a performance record, don't they (people forget the GTO was a trim model option, with engine and drivetrain options from slugs to rabbits under the hood)?

I owned and raced a 1970 GTO (with a 400), and it was fast but no match for the current GM Holden model. The right pedal was great, but the left pedal was good for smoking the interior with burning pad dust. The later (68+) chassis did have fair handling, with a whopping .76G skidpad performance on wide tires, that included heavy anti-swaybars and stiff springs, but they did not toss around like a Sting Ray or 911. My GTO ran mid 15-second ET's stock (fast for the day) and had a hard time making 60-0 under 200 feet. A 4-cylinder 1970 Ford Cortina could beat it on an autocross course (with the same driver, me). The new model is faster, handles better, gets better mileage, but it looks different (it's Australian).

Who is kidding here ;) , what's to live up to regarding the GTO name (what are you talkiing about, the Ferrari)?
 
It's too bad the big 3 North American car makers can't make a vehicle that can survive the test drive let alone a years worth of ownership.

They have a long way to climb back to the top from the fall. The self labeled "masters" have fallen so far in relation to their "inferior" import competitors.

Would anyone dare say they have fallen lower than where the “inferior” import competitors originally started?
 
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