Stroker: Titan Engine: My Story

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

01-MAY-2008

It appears that I was supplied a defective fan clutch. I installed a new one with the Titan engine and swapped it out last night. Today the Jeep runs much more dependably cool. Temp sticks at 210 and doesn't show all the highs that I saw early this week. Air temp here in San Diego has cooled a great deal since the start of the week so I can't be sure, but it really seems a lot better. The acid test will come soon. Deserts, grades, air conditioning.

I suspect this is not the end of my Titan story but it might be nice to summarize.

In December 2007 I purchased a Titan 4.6 liter 0.060 bored I6 in my 1992 XJ. Titan had it to me in under two weeks. I installed along with 24# injectors recommended by them. It ran hot from the start. The heat now appears to be a result of the fan clutch and not the engine. I requested a stock cam which Titan supplied. The stock cam breaths more air into the engine. Measured compression at 200 psi. This is quite high. Engine pinged. In 2500 miles with the engine running hot and pinging, the valves overheated and bent, head cracked.

About mid January 2008 I pulled the head and purchased a new one from Titan. They gave me a good deal ($300). There then occurred a comedy of error on Titan's part, beginning with their sending two heads to the wrong addresses followed by their sending a head setup for roller rockers, resulting in 3 months passing until I had all the parts to install a roller-rockered head that I didn't want in the first place but am glad I received now. Titan has either paid part or all the cost of the roller rockers and all of the cost of associated parts. I paid for a new 'hot' cam and installed.

This week I finally got the engine going. I've put cold plugs into it as recommended by go-jeep. Engine seems to run great and no pinging. Idles a little rough. Maybe this is the cam.

So the stroker died because of a combination of a bad fan clutch and a bad cam choice. They didn't know a factory cam would have such an effect on compression. Neither did I.

I've learned Titan's build. They use pistons from a standard application that have 11 cc of dish. Working forward from this you end up with a rather large quench height (about 0.100 in my engine) to keep compression in the lower 9s. I guess these pistons are inexpensive. It's a budget stroker and I got what I paid for. The jeep really leaps and if the ping doesn't start again, well I don't care about quench height.

So if I'd purchased their normal stroker with hot cam, and if I'd had a good fan clutch, the stroker install might have gone smoothly. I'd be happy with Titan now.

But it didn't go that way. On the negative side for Titan, the time it took to get the new head and the frustration of calling basically every day are a very black mark. But on the other hand they didn't give up and have at least shared in the cost of the repair even though the reason for engine damage was not completely clear.

My only complaint at present is about *time*. If they'd only been able to get me the head a week or two after I ordered it I would be happy right now.

To be fair to them it would be nice if others here at who have had good or bad experiences with Titan contribute to this thread and allow the reader to make their choice.

Stay tuned... the jeep goes to Utah next week. 2000 miles high speed driving under hot conditions. Think I'll make it?

Mike

 

[Gojeep]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Very good of you to put that opinion across and think what you have said is very fair.
About the AF running in the 11's, I was just saying it is the same as stock and you might not need to do anything about it on this stroker. I adjusted the MAP sensor on the one I installed to the same stock AF as was the only way to be totally rid of any pinging. Soon as I leaned it out at WOT to the low 12's, the pinging would come back if it was hot outside.
Hope all goes well from here on in.

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

As you know I installed roller rockers and intended to drive jeep to NE Arizona for a vacation. Here's how the new engine worked out.

Didn't notice any pinging on 91 octane and didn't have a chance to try 89 octane. Air/fuel indicated 14.7 just as expected. Engine still regulates temperature at 210 deg F and heats nearly up to the third line under load.

We made 327 miles from home, (putting a total of about 400 miles on the new head since I drove about 75 test miles) into central Arizona when the engine suddenly began missing and knocking.

By the side of the road and miles from anywhere (Arizona is mostly an unpopulated desert) I removed the rocker cover. The stud for exhaust rocker on #6 cylinder snapped. However the push rod showed no bends or other defects. I can't think of a force that could be applied by an unbent push rod that would break a 1/2" steel stud. My only guess is that the stud was somehow defective.

On more careful inspection I observed that the guide plates had, in only 400 miles, nearly worn thru some but not all of the push rods. Even if we could replace the stud, this motor was doomed. A few more miles and the push rods would begin to fail. Of course I installed the guides centered around the push rods and torqued the nuts 1/2 turn beyond the point where all mechanical lash disappeared. I re-checked this adjustment again and it was still correct. Some force was appling a twisting torque to the rockers. Maybe the tops of the valves aren't flat, or more likely the studs holes aren't drilled in exactly the right spots relative to the lifters. If the studs aren't exactly over the lifter centerline then the push rod will be at an angle (in the front of vehicle to rear of vehicle direction) and will tend to twist the rocker as the valve opens and thus bring the push rod into contact with the guide plate. I don't think the entire head is mis-alligned since push rods showed different degrees of damage.

A 327 mile tow at $4/mile is expensive. We had no better place to go for a short Auto Club tow so we simply camped by the side of the road that night expecting to work out the logistics of our damaged vacation on the next day.

Next day I elected to remove the other #6 push rod and rocker, remove the wire to #6 fuel injector and drive on 5 cylinders. This worked well for about 150 miles but eventually the lifters came out of their ports. I don't know what these might have hit when falling into the pan and heard nothing. But without lifters the oil pressure could not be maintained and we had to stop.

We made about 6 miles from Yuma AZ on I-8. Called a tow truck to take us off the freeway back to Yuma AZ. We had to bring in a spare jeep from San Diego (about 150 miles distant) and leave my Cherokee in Yuma so that we could continue the vacation. On return to Yuma we rented a dolly from Uhaul for about $130 and towed the Cherokee home. This was a scary event since our tow vehicle, another jeep, wasn't really up to the task, but by driving in the middle of the night to avoid traffic and a little luck we made it back.

We lost about 3 days of a 9 day vacation to this event.

As you might imagine I've lost faith in the present motor and it will come out. What will go back in is now the topic for discussion. I've listed possibilities below. I expect I'll have to pay more money for each. It's not about cost for me, just about getting my jeep going reliably.


1) Return engine to Titan for a complete inspection and rebuild with normal non-roller head.

2) Same as #1 but with the roller rockers and the rocker rotation problem corrected, and operationally tested.

3) Return engine to Titan for exchange with a rebuilt standard, non-stroked, engine

4) Purchase a Jasper stock rebuild and use Titan as a core.

5) Purchase a stock rebuild from some other company and use Titan as a core

Anyone have a vote?

 

[Gojeep]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Get Titan to replace the stroker but sell it off and get a stock rebuild from some where you trust.

 

[Clean Racing]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Mike.

I agree with Marcus.. Get Titan to replace the motor, and sell it off.. I would get a stock rebuild from Jasper. If you still want a stroker give me a pm. I am building one for a local guy on here..

 

[corbinafly]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Mike, sorry you're going through hell with that Titan. Clean-RC is definately a good choice!!! Scott's the man.

 

[Talyn]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

I'm still dealing with my Titan issues as well. I gave up on their warranty since they don't return phone calls nor emails. I have over $5000 into this engine including purchase price, new parts, repeated oil drains, etc. Not to mention another vehicle and the fact that my XJ hasn't moved for over a month.

Hope you get your problems worked out.

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

I'm still dealing with my Titan issues as well. I gave up on their warranty since they don't return phone calls nor emails. I have over $5000 into this engine including purchase price, new parts, repeated oil drains, etc. Not to mention another vehicle and the fact that my XJ hasn't moved for over a month.

Hope you get your problems worked out.

I'm surprised you have communication problems. I've called very many times and they always talk and try.

Like you my jeep, excepting 327 miles to the recent blow up, hasn't moved since Jan 6 2008. Money is a problem but the loss of use of the vehicle and my destroyed vacation and the others that couldn't be attempted are the largest cost.

So here's the latest edition. I've given up on stroked motor from Titan. They have agreed to replace the stroked motor with a regular stock rebuild if I will pay shipping both ways, $300.

Now if I get a Jasper it's about $3300 which is a lot more than $300. And Jasper wants $300 if I don't have a core. I can use the new Titan as a core should it fail so I'll break even on the Titan. Of course if I put it into the vehicle I risk the labor. But $3000 is a lot of money so I'm willing to risk the labor. I'm getting good at swapping motors now. Still it took from 7 am to 5 pm last Saturday to get the Titan stroker out, and another two hours to strip it. If the titan has problems I'll just use it for a core.

Titan also offered to completely go thru the stroker and return it to me for the same 2-way shipping. Why not get the stroker going again? After all I did get it to stop pinging on 91 octane with cold plugs. Well, I never managed to get it to run cool. On a cold morning downhill it ran at 210 which is odd since it should run at the thermostat setting of 180 (the previous motor did). With this high starting temp, there just isn't much room to get hotter. And it nearly overheated (made it to the third line on the temp gauge, just before the red zone) under sub-maximum conditions of 92 deg F air temp, gentile up hill, 70 MPH, fully loaded. But I could easily demand the same performance at 105 deg air temp. So temperature is the final straw.

So stay tuned. I expect to put the motor in mid-June and have a 800 mile trip planned across -you guessed it- desert to California's Sierra Nevada and two more trips planned later in the summer. Stay tuned.

Looks like the score is (according to replies to this thread)

mhead - trouble with Titan stroker
gojeep - has one running
Talyn - trouble
tl1r - trouble

Anyone out there with a postive experience? Either on a stroker or a plain rebuild?

 

[xj-grin]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Man, your experiences are enough to make a grown man cry -- I hope it works out for the best for you eventually. You asked for positive stroker experiences... I have almost 70k on my Accurate Power (unfortunately now out of business) 4.6L, both city, highway and trail rides. Gets @16mpg on low octane dino fuel with no pinging (at 5k feet of altitude), and @14mpg on E85 with no issues whatsoever. Constant temperature of 195, except on the hottest of days when it'll touch 210. And I even have the much maligned Crane 905 cam... Truly has been a fantastic engine -- hope your next one is too.

 

[Talyn]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

I think this thread has the full account of my Titan problems. At this point even if they offered to build me a new one or a stock spec engine I wouldn't want it. The next one I am building myself.

 

[corbinafly]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

I got about 60K miles on my hesco stroker and i recently found the cause us my warmer than normal running. There was a pinhole in the #2 exhaust port that was undetectable by magnafluxing. A pressure test found it. So after 3 1/2 years of flogging this motor for all it's worth, they are sending me a new bare Al head for the trouble. THat right there is customer service!!!:guitar: :guitar: :guitar: :guitar:

Kyung

 

[Talyn]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

According to Titan none of this is their fault, and currently they claim there is no problem. How is that for lack of service?

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

22-AUG-2008

When last we left our hero (me!) he was trying to decide weather to have Titan rebuild the blown stroker or just have Titan send a stock rebuild. They offered to do either to keep me happy. I did get the stroker to run on 91 octane and perhaps it would have run on 89. What to do?

I believe that a stroked Titan can be made to run ping-free. It just seemed that in my limited experience with the stroked motor that it ran hot. Downhill in the cold morning I would see a little more than 210 and it got hot from there. The thermostat is set for 190 but that indicated 20 degrees hotter means a very lot since it means that all the thermostat's ability to open and regulate engine temperature is gone. So based on this I decided for the stock motor. Received it. In it went. Reviewed all the radiator components. All seemed well.

Way back I mentioned that I accidentally broke the rear temperature sensor when removing the worn out engine. Purchased a replacement from NAPA. Bad idea. In desperation I recently replaced this new sensor with one from the jeep dealer. Now I see 190 degree thermostated operation! I guess the Titan didn't run unusually hot and now I'm wishing I'd stayed stroked.

New stock Titan compression #1 to #6:

150, 160, 150, 165, 160, 160 (PSI)

Not the most even but seems OK. Am running the new 24# injectors purchased for the stroker. I have a wide-band air/fuel meter and see 14.7 operation in closed loop. Drops to 11 (as expected) under full throttle, but I don't drive full throttle so this isn't a problem. Staggers a little at idle with 14.7 indicated but I'm guessing the computer simply can't open the injector briefly enough for smooth fuel regulation.

Ran motor 800 miles up to Mammoth. 4 people on board with a huge amount of gear. Max loading of vehicle. It got hot, nearly to 3rd line on Sherwin grade above Bishop even at 35 MPH operation but outside air was 104 (deg F). So this is a new and presumably somewhat tight, motor being operated at maximum conditions.

But I gotta say that once you've been stroked you won't want to go back. Jeep is a dog now.

I still have the stroker bug but think I'll do the build locally. I'd love to see personal recipies for stroked motors. Is there a thread?

By the way, if you want a look at the jeep there's a thread:

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4802

Mike

 

[Gojeep]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

22-AUG-2008


But I gotta say that once you've been stroked you won't want to go back. Jeep is a dog now.

I still have the stroker bug but think I'll do the build locally. I'd love to see personal recipies for stroked motors. Is there a thread?

By the way, if you want a look at the jeep there's a thread:

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4802

Mike

Cant go past Dino's site to learn how to build one yourself.
http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/stroker.html

 

[tl1r]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Hey, I was on my way out to change the plugs on my Titan and I thought I'd check in to see how your problem was going. Since I last posted the RE-rebuilt new stroker titan sent me was broken in for 3500 miles and driven from PA to phoenix AZ. So what are my views of titan now? I still hate them and would not reccomend them to anyone. I feel this way because when you go to buy an engine your ultimately admitting you don't have the experience, confidence, or time to build your stroker. As an engine buyer your expecting to perform nothing more than a standard engine swap with some new injectors and you'll be on your way. This is the experience titan advertises and confirms over the phone before you order your engine. By the time I got my first titan drivable it took a year of messing with everything I could think of and almost 10k miles. Then it blew a headgasket at 10K. The second titan works much much better but this is with the lower 180 degree tstat (not exactly a healthy fix) 91 octane and an adjustable map sensor. Is it ping free NO, is it ping free most of the time yes. Titans customer service thankfully they stand behind there warranty thats the only good thing I can say about there customer service. In the end of all my troubles I can tell you with 100% confidence that for the time and $ spent I could have installed a 5.3L chevy w auto tranny for less $ and less headache.

Mhead I would have done the same thing you did. I would have taken the stock motor from them but I would have tried to sell it and go V8 or I would have installed it like you did and saved money for the V8 swap in the near future. This experience has me fully convinced that stock set ups are all I'm going to trust from now on(unless I ever have an over abundance of time and money). It just might be a stock set up from some other truck that had 300 horse/torque that fits in my jeep. On a side note I also had the rear head temp sensor problem you had after installing 2 different new sensors I hooked up a code reader and saw that the engines computer was reading the proper temp off of the sensor in the tstat housing and now I just subtract 25 degrees from my gauge read out. (sorry i wasn't around when you were going through that) Matter of fact I had so many problems with the titan that I bought a snap on "brick" scanner and permanatley installed it in my jeep. That sentence should say it all for anyone considering a titan.

As far as my current motor it still runs ok but I'm only keeping it as long as it has a warranty. Which is another year and a half, if it lasts that long! If it breaks before that I will take whatever replacement they give me and put it up for sale. I cant wait for the day I can finally put 87 back in my tank. I get 14mpg w 4.10 gears and 35's in my YJ I sure could use that 30cents a gallon savings.

Well good luck from here I can only imagine how much it sucks to go back to stock power so I can't wait to read about your next attempt.

 

[Talyn]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

My Titan POS is still in pieces, but almost back together for like the 5th time or so. Its been over a year since i purchased it and over a year of problems. As far as I am concerned Titan's customer service is horrible. They kept sending me faulty components, components that wouldn't work for my application, and finally they are not helping me in any way. I also gave up on receiving 100% working parts from them. What I have experienced there was always somethign wrong with somethign they buioilt for me. First I had a knock in the first engine, then the second engine ate the camshaft and a rocker (after they installed it and broke it in). While replacing the cam on that engine I realized that they never installed the larger valves in the head that I paid for. Send head back to have larger valves installed. Get the head back late and one of the valves was lose in the guide. I found this out only after I replaced the cam, the lifters, the roller rockers and put it back together. They claim that their head guy never let anything faulty out. Right. Gave up on their incompetent help and had a used head rebuilt. And that is leaving out all the details... I don't have time to type up all the other screw ups on Titan's part.

With the money and time I have spend on this pos engine I could have either built my own engine or purchased a fully spec'd Hesco.

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

As mentioned above I traded out the stroker and istalled a Titan rebuilt stock engine. I've put 4500 miles on it now in the course of several long trips. It seemed to run hotter than I expected (even after working out my sensor issue.. see above) but has cooled off since. I think heat is about what I would expect now.

Engine seems to run ok. Has a little roughness at idle but this could be the 24# injectors just supplying too much fuel for the shorter open time that is required of this higher flow injector. No major complaints so far save that the engine seems noisy. Seems like there is noise in the pan so maybe there's a rod knock. I can't tell for sure so I'm just going to drive the thing until it dies, hopefully not too far from home. So even the stock rebuild has not left me with a really good feeling.

I agree that a stroked motor might not be as desirable as a stock, but larger, motor. I'm not up to the task of swapping in a motor from some other vehicle so both ideas have downsides.

I've concluded I like the lower compression 6. No ping on regular gas. Low compression motors can run forever. My use of the Jeep is for recreation and with some introspection I've realized that the stock 6 does a reasonable job of moving the Jeep down the road. Yes, it does get slow on the hills but so what. I'll just get there a little later.

Titan promised me a trouble free stroker and it seemed like a good idea at the time. More horsepower with no downside. It didn't turn out that way.

I'm guessing that Titan isn't 100% of the problem and that any stroker would have issues to be worked out.

Thanks for asking about the status. I spent nearly 6 valuable months with the Jeep off the road, but since the stock motor went in I've had a really good time 'froden in Oray and driving all over the Sierra Nevada. Looking forward to good fall and winter desert camping! Check out the link in the previous post if you want to see the jeep.

 

[tl1r]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

More Titan stroker bad news. Well sometime around $4 a gallon gas I bought a Honda and stopped using my YJ as a daily driver. Needless to say its gotten less than 4,000 miles in the last 6 months. I've off roaded quite a few times and am happy w the motors output. That was until last sunday night as I was driving around town and she just shut off. Well looking into it 2day my camshaft is no longer spinning and this is with roughly 10k or less miles since titan had the engine back at there facility. I will be taking my timing cover off within the next few days and determining what broke. Regardless of the outcome it will have been another 10k miles and the engine will be going back to titan again. I hate this motor and I hope anyone thinking about a titan finds these posts. Anytime I find a good review about titan I wonder if we are just extremely unlucky or if they are extremely fortunate.

 

[Talyn]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

I gave up on my Titan POS... After my last post I replaced the head on my dime. The noise was gone and all was quiet... for about 2000 miles.. then the bottom end starts to knock. At that point I gave up on having a reliable engine from Titan and scrapped it and in the process of installing my own 4.6L. The Titan 4.Fail is at the machine shop and they are going to be looking in to the knock.

 

[EverAE82]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

the fact that a brand new is running a 15 psi variation between cylinders is pretty terrible. not that those arent within "spec" for variation as a rule of thumb, considering my 146,000km 4.0L is running 150-151 psi across all cylinders, it speaks pretty poorly for their quality.

i have all the engine specs for the 4.0L if anybody needs anything as well.