Steering and tie rod end question

[wavingpine11]

Hi all--

I have a 98 auto that I'm currently in the process of chasing away steering shimming and some terrible cracking noises when I turn. I have the front axle up on jack stands and the steering and knuckles are already removed. I have the MOOG parts to replace all of the ball joints, the drag link, and the DS tie rod end, but I do not have the tie rod end that connects to the drag link.

1) Does anyone know if the tie rod end that sits on the PS of the tie rod is the same part number as the one that actually connects to the steering knuckle on the DS, i.e. are both of the ends on the tie rod the same?

Here is a link for the DS tie rod end at Summit that I bought:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOG-ES3096L/

2) A second question came up when I removed the knuckles, as this is my first time doing the ball joints. I noticed that on both the DS and the PS, the lower ball joint is free to swivel around as one might expect a ball joint to do on first principles, while the upper joints are stuck inline with the vertical axis of the joint. The replacement joints, upper and lower, are all solidly stuck so that they rotate, but do not freely swivel off-axis.

Here is a link for the lower ball joints I purchased:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOG-K3161T/

So my question is: are the old lower ball joints just really trashed, or do I have the wrong part? Should the joints be able to move all over the place like weeble wobbles, or should you only be able to rotate them? Both of my lower ball joints move freely rather than just rotating to follow the movement of the steering knuckles like the upper joints do.

3) My final question regards clearance for a future upgrade to the steering. I have an OX locker installed in the front end, which I would not be interested in parting with. Does anyone have any experience with trying to fit upgraded steering such as the JCR 1-ton or anything else worth upgrading to with the beefier diff cover that is required for the OX locker installation?


Thanks in advance for your replies! I'm hoping to get my rig in better than ever shape (it was a serious POS when I bought it a few years ago) so that I can a) just enjoy it rather than spend all my time under it, and b) finally get to one of these Rausch Creek outings and meet some more of you guys! I'm shooting to make the NACFest this year for the first time ever, despite siphoning off tons of great information from you guys over the last 4-5 years. rocks!

--wavingpine11

 

[Flyfisher]

Can't help you with #2 or #3, but rod ends on tie rods and drag links are typically threaded differently. One is right-hand, the other is left-hand. Don't think they're interchangable. Different threads are to enable adjustment by rotating the connnecting "tube" to shorten/lengthen the rod.

 

[wavingpine11]

Ah, great point--they have to be threaded the reverse of one another in order to turn the tie rod one direction and have the same effect at both ends. Thanks--I hadn't thought it through to that point. This is why I love the collective mind!

 

[wavingpine11]

I found the part numbers I was looking for, so here they are:

MOG-ES3094L and MOG-ES3095R are for the tie rod ends on the actual tie rod.

MOG-DS1238 is the drag link, and MOG-ES3096L is the tie rod end on the drag link that connects to the pitman arm.

Questions 2 and 3 are still wide open. . . For question 2, what I'm trying to say is that while the upper ball joint is rigidly set in its orientation and can only spin, I can take the lower ones and push them from side to side as well, or rotate them off axis like a wobbly top spinning. Just wondering if that is normal, or if that is maybe where all that crunching was coming from when I make turns. The replacement lower ball joints I have do not wobble, they only spin like the uppers.

 

[Matthew Currie]

My recollection from the ball joints I did a few years ago is that the new ones are very very stiff. The only reason for a ball joint to go off axis on a solid axle is to get the stud aligned in the holes without undue stress. They probably do go sideways as a ball joint is expected to, but it's probably too tight to move without a hammer.

 

[wavingpine11]

My recollection from the ball joints I did a few years ago is that the new ones are very very stiff. The only reason for a ball joint to go off axis on a solid axle is to get the stud aligned in the holes without undue stress. They probably do go sideways as a ball joint is expected to, but it's probably too tight to move without a hammer.

Thanks for your input, Matt. Taking it a bit further, do you think that the fact that mine move off axis if I breathe on them hard indicate that they are in need of replacement or that they just loosened up over time? I did try to work the tires back and forth along the vertical axis to check for play in the joints before I tore everything apart and it was pretty minimal. I'm replacing them all on first principles so that I have a defined starting point of known good steering components and then seeing where that leaves my crunches and wobbles. I was kind of hoping the wobbles would go away with the installation of the new tie rod endsm and the crunches would go away with the installation of the ball joints. We'll see. . .

 

[iwannadie]

I replaced my balljoints recently and the new ones were very stiff and hard to move by hand. I figured that was good as the old ones were loose/fell apart.

 

[kastein]

Lowers are ok to move at any angle new but should be stiff and have no play - i.e. they should be able to swivel as a ball in a socket would. Uppers are actually more of a round rod in a hole than a ball in a socket, which is why they stay on axis but spin.

Crunching could be the balljoints, could be any of a million other things too though. Check your steering box bolts and track bar also.

 

[Matthew Currie]

Thanks for your input, Matt. Taking it a bit further, do you think that the fact that mine move off axis if I breathe on them hard indicate that they are in need of replacement or that they just loosened up over time? I did try to work the tires back and forth along the vertical axis to check for play in the joints before I tore everything apart and it was pretty minimal. I'm replacing them all on first principles so that I have a defined starting point of known good steering components and then seeing where that leaves my crunches and wobbles. I was kind of hoping the wobbles would go away with the installation of the new tie rod endsm and the crunches would go away with the installation of the ball joints. We'll see. . .

The top joints will slide up and down*, but the bottoms should have no vertical play, and that means that once installed, there should be no vertical movement in the knuckle, so even "pretty minimal" is probably too much, and you're wise to replace.

*note, in case this turns up in archives, that we're speaking of the late type axle with self-aligning top joints, not the early ones which use a threaded collar in the bore.

 

[wavingpine11]

Thanks again for all the great information, guys. I'm hoping to have the time to make some headway on this over the weekend.

 

[ncmetalmechanic]

if the steering shimmy you have is when you hit a bump, or if it comes on very suddenly, then definitely check the joint, and the bushing on the track bar. i have found the easiest way to check the trackbar, is to have someone get in the jeep, leave the engine off, and very quickly move the steering wheel back and forth, while you lay underneath and look at, and feel the joint and bushing. (front axle must be loaded, tires on ground, no jacks or stands) if it is a small shimmy, and comes on gradually, at certain speeds, i would check the balance on the tires. i hope this helps, i hate to hear people spending money on multiple parts, because they cant find the problem (not that i havent done it :looney so hopefully this will help you. good luck, and let us know what you found!

 

[wavingpine11]

I replaced my balljoints recently and the new ones were very stiff and hard to move by hand. I figured that was good as the old ones were loose/fell apart.

Just wondering what tool you used to remove your ball joints. I have a generic ball joint C-style press from Harbor Freight, but it doesn't have sufficient clearance to actually press out either joint without the other one already having been pressed out. Did you use the factory tools or some other method?

So I spent Sunday helping someone replace a CV shaft on a minivan instead of replacing my ball joints. :tears:

 

[wavingpine11]

if the steering shimmy you have is when you hit a bump, or if it comes on very suddenly, then definitely check the joint, and the bushing on the track bar. i have found the easiest way to check the trackbar, is to have someone get in the jeep, leave the engine off, and very quickly move the steering wheel back and forth, while you lay underneath and look at, and feel the joint and bushing. (front axle must be loaded, tires on ground, no jacks or stands) if it is a small shimmy, and comes on gradually, at certain speeds, i would check the balance on the tires. i hope this helps, i hate to hear people spending money on multiple parts, because they cant find the problem (not that i havent done it :looney so hopefully this will help you. good luck, and let us know what you found!

I appreciate your thoughts. When I get the ball joints done, I will definitely be a lot better situated to check the track bar. It's up on jack stands until then.

Generally, I agree with the approach where you replace specific parts--just the bad ones. In this case, I'd just like a nice fresh start with all of the steering components. The steering issues have been there for a while, and over time they I'd just like to take away all of the variables that I can. Right now, the two front tires are badly worn, and I'd just like to replace the steering components, put on my new set of tires, have it aligned, and not have to worry about futher chasing.

The frame is solid (as much as a unibody can be!), the steering gear is new and securely bolted in, and the other related things like the track bar and control arms are fairly new and were very securely attached last time I checked. The bushings are all good on the control arms as well. So right now, I'm hung up on getting the ball joints pressed out. I'll recheck the track bar and other connections once I've got that done and also have the tie rod ends replaced. I'm just waiting for the tie rod ends to arrive so that I can at least get that part of the excitement out of the way in my spare evening hours.

I found most of the factory tools I needed on ebay and Miller special tools. There is a kit (6289) that is referenced in the factory service manual, but the c-press itself is proving quite difficult to find.

 

[wavingpine11]

I have found two different kits to remove the ball joints from reputable tool companies:

OTC 8031, also referenced in this informative thread:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1026878&highlight=otc+8031

Here's a nice link from OTC detailing the kit and its usage on the XJ (and a few other vehicles):

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/517921.pdf


Miller Special Tools 6289A, as referenced in the 1998 XJ FSM.

http://millerspecialtools.spx.com/Detail.aspx?id=1691

The Miller kit costs about the same as the OTC, but contains fewer adapters (although all required to do the job).

I think I'll save the generic HF kit for lower demand tasks like u-joints and control arm bushings.

 

[iwannadie]

I bought just the OTC adapters and rented a press for free from the local auto zone(it was the OTC press actually). Having the adapters made it pretty painless, I had no real issues at all.

 

[wavingpine11]

I bought just the OTC adapters and rented a press for free from the local auto zone(it was the OTC press actually). Having the adapters made it pretty painless, I had no real issues at all.

That's great to hear. I finally found an OTC press for $60 online, and I'm waiting on most of the adaptors to come from a guy who resells tools from closed car dealerships on Ebay, so I'm getting there! I honestly hadn't thought about renting the tools until after I had pursued buying them. But it's cool--my girlfriend has an '01 XJ so they won't be sitting idle forever.

But I learned a valuable lesson--make sure you have all the required tools *before* tearing things apart. My 16 year old daughter is asking me when I'm going to put it all back together so she can continue her driving practice, and I prefer it as my daily driver for work and travel anyway.

Fortunately, I now have all the tie rod ends, so I can do the steering while I wait for the ball joint tools to arrive. One thing at a time. . .

 

[iwannadie]

That's great to hear. I finally found an OTC press for $60 online, and I'm waiting on most of the adaptors to come from a guy who resells tools from closed car dealerships on Ebay, so I'm getting there! I honestly hadn't thought about renting the tools until after I had pursued buying them. But it's cool--my girlfriend has an '01 XJ so they won't be sitting idle forever.

But I learned a valuable lesson--make sure you have all the required tools *before* tearing things apart. My 16 year old daughter is asking me when I'm going to put it all back together so she can continue her driving practice, and I prefer it as my daily driver for work and travel anyway.

Fortunately, I now have all the tie rod ends, so I can do the steering while I wait for the ball joint tools to arrive. One thing at a time. . .

I bought the adapters on amazon for cheap, I can't remember the exact price but I am thinking around $60. I figure I'd buy the exact adapters and rent the universal press until I am ready to pony up the cash for a quality press. I am one that likes having the right tool for the job even if I use it one time and then it sits there forever ha.

 

[wavingpine11]

I'm the same way. I like to have the correct tools. Got caught with my pants down on this job by trying to save money, though. You got a great deal on the adapters. I'm paying significantly more than that. At this point, I have all of them either in hand or in transit except the 6289-4 (presses in the lowed joints), which was on back order at Miller until April 22nd. The Ebay guy offered one for sale and then refunded me my money saying he couldn't find it. I couldn't find the alternate part number, OTC 521802, for sale individually, but I'll check Amazon since that seems like a good idea. I did find an OTC 521808 press for sale (equivalent to Miller C-4212F) for $60, which blew the Miller direct price of $187 out of the water.

Ironically, I noticed that SPX seems to own both Miller and OTC. Go figure. . .

 

[Matthew Currie]

I have the OTC press and made my own adapters out of this and that, and it did fine. Believe me, once you own the OTC press you will not, as long as you have the strength to pick it up, regret that you have one.

 

[wavingpine11]

I have the OTC press and made my own adapters out of this and that, and it did fine. Believe me, once you own the OTC press you will not, as long as you have the strength to pick it up, regret that you have one.

I'm sold.

I couldn't find that last adaptor to install the lowers on Amazon or anywhere else, so I'll just wait that one out and hope it really does come in on the 22nd at Miller. But I'll do the others in the meantime once the press comes in.

Going to do the tie rod ends this weekend finally. I think that hunting down the tools and obtaining them is going to be the last of the uphill portion of this job......... but I guess I'll see soon enough.