So explain to me....

[88manche]

Why are some reasons that the American Recovery and Reinvestment plan Will or will not work?

What do you guys think?

 

[wolfpackjeeper]

not work

-it gives out money for no work without stimulating anything.
-instead of providing $30mil for govt autos and a bailout to the industry, why don't we give them a contract to retool and provide the govt with new vehicles on a yearly basis.
-how does stimulating solar cells put money in the pocket, same for all the other earmarks
-it ultimatly will just increase the "I need a handout" mindset of america and probably allow people to be lazier instead of encouraging them to work harder.

that is just getting started

 

[RichP]

All this handout did initially was cover the executives asses, ensure they get their salaries and bonus's then whatever is left over *might* be used for job creation but I doubt it.
We know we need to start going solar and wind for power in this country so that gas and coal take a backseat. Take a few billion and fund a couple of hundred start ups in EVERY state for the production of solar cells, that puts a few factories in business, then you have sales people, installers, etc. Start that kind of production and prices on solar come way down, real fast. Subsidize the purchase and installation of solar arrays for homeowners and business's. The power companies would fight that tooth and nail, they want exclusive power generation and do not want it in the hands of the individual and the stock holders and investment funds would be right behind them.
Fund a contest for hydrogen fuel cells, winner gets a billion and the fuel cell design becomes public domain, fund more companies to produce and sell them, there goes the battery packs in hybrids. Start the hydrogen infrastructure building, solar and wind power hydrogen generators in several gas stations. Boot strap an entire new green industry. With this kind of economic condition it would be worthwhile, what we had did not work, not well, time for something different and making ourselves independent is a worthy goal.

 

[bigalpha]

All this handout did initially was cover the executives asses, ensure they get their salaries and bonus's then whatever is left over *might* be used for job creation but I doubt it.
We know we need to start going solar and wind for power in this country so that gas and coal take a backseat. Take a few billion and fund a couple of hundred start ups in EVERY state for the production of solar cells, that puts a few factories in business, then you have sales people, installers, etc. Start that kind of production and prices on solar come way down, real fast. Subsidize the purchase and installation of solar arrays for homeowners and business's. The power companies would fight that tooth and nail, they want exclusive power generation and do not want it in the hands of the individual and the stock holders and investment funds would be right behind them.
Fund a contest for hydrogen fuel cells, winner gets a billion and the fuel cell design becomes public domain, fund more companies to produce and sell them, there goes the battery packs in hybrids. Start the hydrogen infrastructure building, solar and wind power hydrogen generators in several gas stations. Boot strap an entire new green industry. With this kind of economic condition it would be worthwhile, what we had did not work, not well, time for something different and making ourselves independent is a worthy goal.

This is the best idea I've heard in a long time.

 

[fscrig75]

The power companies would fight that tooth and nail, they want exclusive power generation and do not want it in the hands of the individual and the stock holders and investment funds would be right behind them.

Here in El Paso we have sun constantly, its the desert. They are trying to get people to install solar on their homes, and I'm all for it, but the local electric company won't pay the individual for the excess power that is created.
You make power, your meter spins backwards, lowering your bill. But what if your still conserving and you create excess electricity? These morons want us to give them the power for free so they can sell it to someone else. If the electric companies would actually pay the consumer more people would be installing solar cells on their roofs. I know New Jersey and Colorado pay.

 

[mavinwy]

I thought they had to pay you (at voided cost) for the excess power created. The law has been in place since Carter.

But Solar alone rarely produces more than a household will use, it just is not that efficient yet for the price. So the point may be moot unless you have 10 acres to fill with solar cells for a household.

On topic

IF and ony if the $$$ gets spent on infrastructure and one time cost iems (roads, development) it has a VERY slim chance of working. However, if it gets spent on "programs" that will need to be funded for the future as well....forget it. That just means that we will eventually be raising taxes on everyone to pay for those programs.

Jim

 

[RichP]

I thought they had to pay you (at voided cost) for the excess power created. The law has been in place since Carter.

But Solar alone rarely produces more than a household will use, it just is not that efficient yet for the price. So the point may be moot unless you have 10 acres to fill with solar cells for a household.

Jim

Hmm, not quite true, if I have solar cells on my roof and pump power back into the grid my cells start producing power within an hour to two of sunrise and continue to generate till late afternoon, meanwhile those living west of me start generating power a couple of hours after me and continue a couple of hours after me, 3 or 4 hours to the west coast. Now with no one home and the house sitting there idle, keeping the hot water hot and some heat [I have an all electric house] I don't use any real power till evening at which point I start drawing from the grid instead of pushing.
Now if you are picturing large solar panels you also need to look at the shingle replacements, they replace standard roof shingles and other than being shiny look the same with a 20 year warranty. Right now this is fairly expensive because it's a specialty item, build 3 manufacturing plants in every state and the prices would drop like a rock. Efficiency has gone up quite a bit, 30-35% I seem to recall and one of the universities has come up with a solar cell that also works fairly well with reflected light so they work longer, from false sunrise to past sunset and generate from IR exposure, 17% efficiency there.
For my house the shingle cells and converter, installed and up and running I'm looking at close to $45K, turnkey. If I was in NJ the state would subsidize that to the tune of 50%, in Pa, ZILCH, the power companies and big coal run this state and they don't want the competition. The solar shingles though could be brought down to pretty much the same price as normal shingles.

 

[mavinwy]

I stand corrected if the shingles have become that efficient....the last numbers I saw were rougly 16% efficiency. It meant on a per year basis (accounting for longer days in the summer with AC when people were home and the shorter winter days with heat) for the average family of 4, it would take roughly an acre of cells to break even. Not that I am against using solar/wind/water/other to offset the costs of energy and save some resources. Heck, my in-laws retired and sold their family owned hydro plant last year that produced enough energy for around 1000 homes for a year and has been in operation since 1984. We have a lot of wind power coming in to play here in Wyoming...after all, we have the wind

Either way, at least for the Hydro plant. The electric company purchased the power back at voided cost. That is what it takes them to make it rather than what they charge the consumer. Doing it on the scale the in-laws were prodicing, it took 13 years to pay back the initial investment. I imagine a home based 45k turnkey op would take longer, but it would be cool to do.

Jim

 

[RichP]

Either way, at least for the Hydro plant. The electric company purchased the power back at voided cost. That is what it takes them to make it rather than what they charge the consumer. Doing it on the scale the in-laws were prodicing, it took 13 years to pay back the initial investment. I imagine a home based 45k turnkey op would take longer, but it would be cool to do.

Jim

I'm going to have to dig for it but NJ had a site up with the business and residential customers that took advantage of the subsidy. Off the top of my head the funeral parlor that did it dropped his electric bill 90% the first month, in his case the system cost was $100K, he footed $50K, payoff was 3-5 years not to mention he was still making money selling carbon credits on some kind of carbon credit trading site. In fact it was so good he decided to double the panels and take advantage of the sell to the power company.

A guy I knew back in the navy in 75 had a house in NH, he also has a stream running behind his house and put in a custom home made water powered generator. He used an electric motor out of a elevator he got from a building that was being torn down, that motor was a SOB to move by hand.

 

[RichP]

Took a while but I'm pretty sure this is the place
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/trusts_estates_prof/2008/06/funeral-home-ru.html
I'm in the middle of changing tapes so I don't have time to read it right now.

 

[karstic]

City of Los Angeles DWP had a ballot on city elections last week that would have given them the exclusive right to install and maintain a crapload of solar panels in LA. Last time I heard it was being narrowly defeated.

Last time I flew into Munich (August '08) I was amazed by the number of solar panels that have been installed even in the smallest of towns.

 

[whatevah]

An expo center in Atlantic City NJ just put up a new 65,000 square-foot roof that can make 412 kilowatts. I dunno if that's efficient or not, but it's only supposed to take 10 years to pay for itself. http://www.boston.com/news/science/...wlands_solar_panels_start_soaking_up_the_sun/

 

[JNickel101]

Anyone else notice how gas prices are creeping back up, even though oil prices are still rock bottom?

Gas should be like $1.25 a gallon right now....instead of $2+ (at least that is what the cheap stuff is here in NM)

 

[mavinwy]

I suppose I should mention that the first 3 of the 13 years was renovating the building, the first generator went online in year 4, the second in year 6. So there was a lot of initial outlay before any income started. And don't forgrt that they had overhead a home user would not have running a business (employees, insurance, taxes, remote access services, licensing etc) So really a 13 year payoff was not too shabby.

Because of this discussion, I have been looking into the changes in solar, and they have become more efficient...so I ran the numbers for the amouunt of south facing roof I have at the house. The overall cost would be 18,000 and by the numbers they have, what it would save me is around $100-120 per month. (the way my house sits makes it a little inconvenient for a lot of panels). Payback in 150-180 months at current electrical costs. This does not include any tax credits/special deals or any other mitigating values, just raw costs.

All in all, that is not too bad. I am sure that there would be other cost savings to make it less expensive. With the amount of space I have available for panels I would never pay for all the electricity I use in a year (at least not if I want to keep welding ) but it would certainly reduce the cost and save a few resources.

The topic certainly does not match the initial post, but the conversation has been good.

Jim

 

[RichP]

Anyone else notice how gas prices are creeping back up, even though oil prices are still rock bottom?

Gas should be like $1.25 a gallon right now....instead of $2+ (at least that is what the cheap stuff is here in NM)

All those investors who lost billions, they need somebody to gouge and make their profits back. It's also the start of the summer run up which is hilarious, I don't think anybody is going anywhere this summer. I know I'm not, I'm going to be working around my house, getting the new deck up as soon as I get the footers done. I also have plans on making a few solar cell panels, 8 actually which should offset my electric quite a bit, building them from seconds sold on ebay and some ingenuity you can get a $800 panel down to about $100...

 

[kujito]

Anyone else notice how gas prices are creeping back up, even though oil prices are still rock bottom?

Gas should be like $1.25 a gallon right now....instead of $2+ (at least that is what the cheap stuff is here in NM)

It's about 'futures trading'. Every time there is a dip in oil prices, OPEC starts with the talk of restricting output to keep prices where they want them. I've talked to several people associated with the industry, and almost to a man, they think that a gallon will level off at around $2.50. I'd obviously prefer $1.25, but I'll take $2.50($1.70-$1.90 here right now) over $4.00+ any day.