Rocker Arm Chatter. Pic/Vids and questions

[DannyRoark89]

howdy folks this is my first post on however i visit it most everyday, i am just getting fed up with the forum i post on normally so figured i would switch it up. im not a noob so through me your best shot on this

so here the scoop on the jeep. its an 89 with 189K miles and is actially closer to 195k ish i would assume based on when i was told the gauge cluster quit working. but its all good i got my own dash in their right now but the price was so good because the owner self diagnosed a broken rod to be the source of an awfully loud and chattery noise. and said he would take a fair price for it, and i was prepared to battle but he offered a price so good i just said sold heres the money. although the chatter is loud and annoying it wasnt a broken a rod i knew. his loss my gain, not my problem if he doesnt know what a broken rod sounds like.

got it home determined to get rid of the horrible noise. the noise is
loud compared to other ticking issues from the lifters or cracked or loose flex plates and bent rods that i have dealt with. if compared to anything it sounds like valves on a 4 stroke dirtbike engine that need major adjusting. thats what i thought anyway so i pulled the valve cover off and figured since it was out some high temp paint would make it a little brighter under the hood.

i started checking the rocker arms for play and movement or damage or anything that seemed out of the norm. i started in the back of the engine and worked towards the grill simply checking for play. when i reached the the rocker arm that is closest to the front grill i did have a slight amount of movement in the rocker arm. moving it by hand did create a mild ticking noise so common sense says if the engine is running at 3000 RPM then I imagine the ticking the would be proportionally louder right?

here is a video of the movement in the rocker arm (the Image is a link to the video on photobucket, ill put a direct link too incase im wrong)



http://s730.photobucket.com/albums/...s valve cover/?action=view&current=forum1.mp4

i unbolted the bridge and re tourqued them to make sure that wasnt the issue and it wasnt. and although i believe my tourque wrench is fine as far as calibration i double checked with a beam style tourqe wrench. so now came the looking and pondering and looking over specs trying to decide the next step and also try and determine what caused this to happen.

When i was looking at it i thought it looked like the second rocker arm was sitting a little lower than the other ( but i also know that sometimes your brain tricks you when you look at something long enough)

I pulled the bridge off the rocker arms to see if there was anything noticeably wrong with the rocker arm to allow the movement i felt. and as soon as i had the bridge in my hand it was apparent to me that it wasn't flat. heres a couple pictures of the twist that it has

here is a video too showing how far out of plumb it is


http://s730.photobucket.com/albums/...s valve cover/?action=view&current=forum2.mp4

I pulled the rest of the bridges off one by one to see if any of the others were like this and they all were flat and square like the one below

my question is what would have caused something like this to happen? would replacing the bridge likely make the chatter go away? should i consider changing all the rockers and bridges (in which case i would do the lifters and rods and the 258 head)

my step dad mentioned that its possible part of the cam chipped off. I dont think thats the case the chatter is in the top end of the engine however it certainly wouldnt be the first time im wrong and hes right so im not enirely sure what to think.... i dont want to do a full rebuild yet, i am still a 6-8 weeks away from having the rest of the money and parts for a stroker

i havnt checked yet to see if the bolts for the bridge or fulcrum are straight or if the threads have been damaged on the bolts or the cast so that is one thing ill be looking at too

any and all info or thoughts are appreciated
thanks

 

[cruiser54]

Someone being a gorilla when reinstalling the rockers can bend a bridge. You can straighten it or replace it and see what happens. How does the underside of the rockers look where the pushrod rides compare with the others?

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

IMO, cruiser has the right idea. Gorrila in the works. I would straighten it out and reinstall. Also IMO, the likelyhood of a rocker arm being worn to the point it can't be adjusted is remote. I have seen exactly one go bad and it was on a 90 Grand Waggy. Evidently, in it's life before I got it, the POs thoght it unnecessary to change the oil. Net effect was that the pushrod went through the rocker. You may have a lifter or two collapsing.

I would start with an oil change and add your favourite oil treatment to attemp to salvage the lifters. If there is a lot of muck built up on the head, that would be a good sign.

What is the oil pressure? The cam and lifters get oiled first from the gallery. Is there a good flow up the pushrods to the rockers?

BTW, welcome to .

 

[DannyRoark89]

the rocker arm is still fine i will update this evening with some pictures. i recon ill crack a cold one, fire up todays podcasts and go pull the bridge off and get to work.

yes there seems to be normal oil flow up the rod and lots of people have suggested lifters, however i dont know what to think really until i get the movement out of the rocker arm. before i pulled the valve cover off i did the normal stuck lifter checklist, oil change with some ATF ran it for 3 hundred miles and changed the oil again. I have had this work before on my old 95 xj and 2 89's a buddy had but it didnt this time so i dug a little deeper and found all this.

oil pressure is normal and consistent.

im gonna bend the sucker back to square and put it in and see what happens, honestly im getting close to stroker build so if i can just shut the ol' pig up between now and then itll make me a happy.

 

[cruiser54]

Have you pulled the pushrod and checked it for straightness?

 

[DannyRoark89]

thats a big negative i was so fixated that the twisted bridge was the problem the rest went out the window, im waiting for her to cool down right now and ill pull the valve cover again and straighten the bridge and check the rods. is there anything else i can check by only removing the valve cover that im not aware of? i want to check the springs too to make sure they are square.

 

[cruiser54]

Visual inspection of the springs would be good, concentrating on the failed assembly. Take the pushrod out and roll it on a flat surface to see if it's straight.

 

[N8N_99xj]

piece of glass makes a good flat surface for checking pushrods.

 

[cruiser54]

piece of glass makes a good flat surface for checking pushrods.

The table in the living room works great as long as your wife isn't home and you leave no traces of Brake-Kleen smell in the house.

 

[NorCalChris]

I'd also agree that the bent bridge is from some gorilla. Deffinetly check the pushrod for straightness. Can you get a video of the sound? You said oil pressure is normal and consistant, but what is it?

 

[DannyRoark89]

i checked the two pushrods that are on used with the two rocker arms connected by the bridge. on a surface that is flat and true atleast according to my straight edge.


http://s730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/dannyroark89/?action=view&current=DSCN1117.mp4

i straightened out the bridge and worked the twist out of it. heres a couple pictures of before and after however i forgot to snap some pics with the squares on it, but its just as square as the rest of them now.

heres a video of it running with the valve cover off. its a pretty loud noise :smoker:


http://s730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/dannyroark89/?action=view&current=DSCN1123.mp4

as far as the oil pressure at idle its right around 13-15 psi cruising around its right around 40psi and if i put my foot in it it climbs to around 55 psi

i have read of people saying 55-60 is on the higher side but i have also read these are normal pressures. i cant remember what my 95 said when i would get on it but it just cruising around it was always near 40psi as well.

 

[DannyRoark89]

i think all the pictures of the bridge are before pictures, sorry, ill snap some photos using the squares in the morning

 

[NorCalChris]

Hows it sound when held at a high idle (4k)?

 

[DannyRoark89]

when im driving it the noise seems to go away after the engine climbs above 3k rpm but i dont know really. i will put that on my checklist for the morning, and ill take a video of that too. what would you think is the cause of the noise based on what you have heard so far?

 

[NorCalChris]

Im playing the video on a laptop with crappy speakers. It sounds like a lifter tick almost, but without hearing it better I cant say. I've had some pretty faint lifter ticks and one real loud SOB. I've fixed everyone of them without doing any mechanical work. I always say change the oil first. I use 15w40 mobil delvac. My process on a stuck lifter goes like this.

Run engine til warm.
Drain oil
Fill with new oil
Run engine again at various rpms. Rev it up and down.
Drain oil once its hot. Change filter and fill engine with new oil.
Run engine for a minute idling, Then rev up to 4-4.5k rpm. Hold for 5 minutes.
*Watch engine temp while doing this! If temps start to get hot back off throttle. You have a cooling issue to fix first*
After holding for 5 minutes bring the idle down in steps. Let idle for a few minutes and shut off
Check oil condition. It should be new looking still. If its not then change it again.

This procedure has fixed every 4.0 with a stuck lifter I've ever worked on. Adding atf a week before oil changes helps too. Sometimes the high idle test needs to be done a few times before a lifter will fully unstick. I let one Jeep sit for a month one time and the lifter made a slight tick at start up then went away after 10 seconds. Its also good idea to do the test every 6 months or so. Especially if you dont run your engine above 2500 very often.
'

 

[DannyRoark89]

sounds like how i have unstuck lifters in the past as well minus the high rev and incremental step down. and thats what i thought it was at first and what my cousins (jeep junkys) said it was as well i just had never heard one so damn loud before i was convinced it was something else......its funny dealing with numerous 4.0L and their sticky lifters i never have been able to pinpoint the cause of them haha

 

[Ecomike]

I have had very good success with running the engine idle up to 3700 rpm for a while on several 4.0 jeep engines to solve the noise problem. So have others here. 3700 rpm seems to be the minimum rpm needed to unstick them.

 

[DannyRoark89]

aaahhhh son of gun i had good long post created about my findings today but there was an error loading it to the thread of naturally i didnt save or copy it nor did the computer. bummer. well here is everything in a nutshell.

i got it warm this morning and replaced the oil (had a quart of atf in for the last 200 miles or so) replaced the filter as well and then let it idle for a couple a minutes, brought it up to 4k for 5 minutes, then backed off to 3k for 4 minutes, then 2k for 3 minutes then 1500 for 2 minutes and then let it idle for another 2-3 minutes and did not have anyluck in getting rid of the noise, the oil was still nice and clean looking so i didnt bother draining it i just replaced the filter one more time. i figure if its gonna tick its gonna tick, might as well not waste another 30$ in oil (if by not skipping that part it would have solved my problem then please ridicule all you want at my direction following abilities, i know what im doing in the morning)

being frustrated i decided to pull the valve cover one last time and just double check everything one last time before i walked away from the jeep for a couple days. i pulled the rocker arms and bridges and rods out. i did it in section the front 3 and the rear 3 (i dont know if doing it like this has any negative impacts on my findings i just have always done it this way since i seen my step dad do it that way.)

when i got to the very last push rod farthest from the grill of the jeep it slipped out of my hand and dropped into the hole a couple inches. below are some pictures. after a smoked a few cigarettes to calm my nerves as i thought i had just lost the push rod into the next layer of hell i determined that infact that lifer must be collapsed stuck anyway. and my counsin confirmed that with the push rod incident. but as always your guys feedback is put to good use.

my questions after today.
-has anyway ever had a push rod slip past the lifter and get inserted deeper into the hole?
-is it safe to assume that the lifter is indeed the problem after the pushrod incident?
-what is the difference between a 'collapsed' and 'stuck' lifter?
-what would cause a lifter to get stuck like this? just a jeep thing? haha

thanks again fellas your advice is being put to good use i assure you!

 

[cruiser54]

Sure it didn't just go off to the side of the lifter?

 

[DannyRoark89]

no im sure thats what it did, but i couldnt get any of the other rods to do with the lifters they are normally seated in, which makes me think that based on my loose knowledge of how a lifter works the plunger spring in the bottom has become damaged or weakened allowing for the whole unit to sit a fuzz lower than the rest allowing for the rod to fall in like that. (i could be just over analyzing everything too, like that dude who hangs a bunch of sheet rock and he sands the joints and screw holes and then he sees another imperfection and another and another not realizing nobody will ever see it once the paint is slapped on, the more you look and focus the more you see and the more time it takes to fix problems that aren't even problems) im gonna take a step back and work on some other jeep projects and re-focus my chi before i look at the engine again just encase i am going bonkers. but looking at this picture of a hydraulic lifter or 'tappet' it seems to me that if that spring were to become stretched out or i guess just weakened in this case and did not have enough retention in it anymore to hold the weight of the push rod then it would settle lower into a position with a different height.

this is just a shot in the dark either way the head is coming off and the lifters will get replaced this weekend with or with out the 258 head.

another question though, and i guess i could just as easily call around here in a couple hours when parts stores open, but are the lifters something i can order through just your normal parts store? i assume they dont keep them in stock, i really dont know though i never had to buy them before, or should i look for an OEM manufacturer online?

and one last question, i have heard mixed claims regarding the replacement of just the bad lifter vs. all of them....my gut tells me do all of them, just like you dont buy one new 33" and you dont buy 1 spark plug. but from what i have read i am pretty torn between one or all, and there have even been some threads on a different forum that suggested once you get the lifter out and unplug the hole you can stick it back in as if nothing happened. Just not 100% sure what to think about these claims.