alexgalexg
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Connecticut
Color difference
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Problems after 12 hole injection upgrade
- Thread starter alexgalexg
- Start date
- Location
- Torrance, CA
Color difference
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Is the bosh logo stamped at an angle on the second set on injectors?
- Location
- Rainy side of Washington
pretty much this.
Raffi sells crappy knockoff injectors from China. This has been well known for a long time. People still fall for it and still call it an "upgrade" which boggles my mind as missing and bucking do not constitute an upgrade as far as I am concerned.
Given that you have two sets that are both bunk and one set of stock ones that have no problems, had no problems when put back in in between chinesium junk sets, and had no problems originally, I would "upgrade" to the originals you took out and tell Raffi to piss up a rope. I will have to discuss having injector upgrade stickers made by one of the other
members. No injector change necessary, just put the sticker on and enjoy your performance improvement. You can even tell people they're 36-hole injectors (if you own 6 jeeps, and count all the injectors.)
- Location
- Torrance, CA
pretty much this.
Raffi sells crappy knockoff injectors from China. This has been well known for a long time. People still fall for it and still call it an "upgrade" which boggles my mind as missing and bucking do not constitute an upgrade as far as I am concerned.
Given that you have two sets that are both bunk and one set of stock ones that have no problems, had no problems when put back in in between chinesium junk sets, and had no problems originally, I would "upgrade" to the originals you took out and tell Raffi to piss up a rope. I will have to discuss having injector upgrade stickers made by one of the other
But he says he doesn't deal in Chinese injectors...
- Location
- Rainy side of Washington
Well that's bullshit. (As you're obviously aware.)
As for the absolute perfect track record thing. The thread I posted this in on facebook either disappeared or I just can't find it (even odds on that, FB search is terribad) - my wife works in the failure analysis department of a major tier 1 automotive sensor IC manufacturer.
Zero-mile failures like this are taken EXTREMELY seriously. Every single one is tested in the "customer assembly" (for example, a crank sensor w/ molded on plastic housing, bracket, cable, and connector), then if a failure is detected, it is disassembled to extract the component that failed, and tested again. If the failure is no longer extant, it is deemed to have been a "customer assembly issue" and the support ticket is closed. If the failure is still present, the component is deprocessed - the housing ground down and then dissolved painstakingly with acid to expose the semiconductor die - and the problem is found, even if it means days spent with a scanning electron microscope, focused ion beam tool, X ray microscope, microscopic thermal scanner, photon emission scope, etc. Each of these tools is well into the five or six figure price range. There have been times when she spent two entire weeks doing a failure analysis on an electronic power steering rack angle sensor or a crank/cam/ABS sensor, only to find out that it was a single failed transistor in an integrated circuit with hundreds of thousands of transistors in it. Two weeks of time with those kinds of tools and one or two skilled engineers is NOT cheap. This is the kind of thing that real automotive suppliers do when faced with a defective part return. Raffi just tells you to keep or toss the failed set and sends you more because... he's probably paying a lot less than he charges for those chinesium injectors, so pissing off the occasional customer with bunk parts and throwing a free set at them to placate them is just a cost of doing business.
Acceptable failure rates are in the low single digit parts per million range, if not lower, depending on the OEM. So for example in 1996 when Jeep made 286000 Cherokees, the vast majority of them with 6 injectors each, they bought 1.716 million injectors.
At a failure rate of 10ppm - far higher than I would expect Chrysler to have tolerated from a tier one supplier like Bosch - that means I would expect 17 failed injectors in the entire 1996 model year production run. Absolute maximum. And that level of failures would result in high level management meetings, angry phone calls to Bosch, many hours of Bosch engineering team overtime to find the problem, etc.
Raffi has sold what, a few thousand injectors maybe? Let's call it ten thousand to be generous.
I have personally seen more than 17 threads concerning misfiring, stuttering, etc - that were determined to be caused by defective injector(s) he supplied. Alex here got two sets with at least one bad injector each.
That is a failure rate - minimum - of 283ppm. (assuming 1 failed injector per set - probably a low estimate - 17 sets containing failures, just what I've seen and probably a low estimate as well - and 10k sets sold.) That is something like 28 times the number of failures that most auto OEMs would already be angry about.
Just buy real injectors from a supplier that's not scooping up garbage from alibaba/ebay and reselling them. Rockauto, most other actual auto parts suppliers, etc aren't going to have this kind of problem.
As for the absolute perfect track record thing. The thread I posted this in on facebook either disappeared or I just can't find it (even odds on that, FB search is terribad) - my wife works in the failure analysis department of a major tier 1 automotive sensor IC manufacturer.
Zero-mile failures like this are taken EXTREMELY seriously. Every single one is tested in the "customer assembly" (for example, a crank sensor w/ molded on plastic housing, bracket, cable, and connector), then if a failure is detected, it is disassembled to extract the component that failed, and tested again. If the failure is no longer extant, it is deemed to have been a "customer assembly issue" and the support ticket is closed. If the failure is still present, the component is deprocessed - the housing ground down and then dissolved painstakingly with acid to expose the semiconductor die - and the problem is found, even if it means days spent with a scanning electron microscope, focused ion beam tool, X ray microscope, microscopic thermal scanner, photon emission scope, etc. Each of these tools is well into the five or six figure price range. There have been times when she spent two entire weeks doing a failure analysis on an electronic power steering rack angle sensor or a crank/cam/ABS sensor, only to find out that it was a single failed transistor in an integrated circuit with hundreds of thousands of transistors in it. Two weeks of time with those kinds of tools and one or two skilled engineers is NOT cheap. This is the kind of thing that real automotive suppliers do when faced with a defective part return. Raffi just tells you to keep or toss the failed set and sends you more because... he's probably paying a lot less than he charges for those chinesium injectors, so pissing off the occasional customer with bunk parts and throwing a free set at them to placate them is just a cost of doing business.
Acceptable failure rates are in the low single digit parts per million range, if not lower, depending on the OEM. So for example in 1996 when Jeep made 286000 Cherokees, the vast majority of them with 6 injectors each, they bought 1.716 million injectors.
At a failure rate of 10ppm - far higher than I would expect Chrysler to have tolerated from a tier one supplier like Bosch - that means I would expect 17 failed injectors in the entire 1996 model year production run. Absolute maximum. And that level of failures would result in high level management meetings, angry phone calls to Bosch, many hours of Bosch engineering team overtime to find the problem, etc.
Raffi has sold what, a few thousand injectors maybe? Let's call it ten thousand to be generous.
I have personally seen more than 17 threads concerning misfiring, stuttering, etc - that were determined to be caused by defective injector(s) he supplied. Alex here got two sets with at least one bad injector each.
That is a failure rate - minimum - of 283ppm. (assuming 1 failed injector per set - probably a low estimate - 17 sets containing failures, just what I've seen and probably a low estimate as well - and 10k sets sold.) That is something like 28 times the number of failures that most auto OEMs would already be angry about.
Just buy real injectors from a supplier that's not scooping up garbage from alibaba/ebay and reselling them. Rockauto, most other actual auto parts suppliers, etc aren't going to have this kind of problem.
Last edited:
- Location
- Hammertown, USA
What's interesting in the pictures Alex posted, one injector is setup for a single intake valve and the other for multiple intake valves.
But they have the same part # stamped on them.
But they have the same part # stamped on them.
- Location
- Rainy side of Washington
They're also different colors, which cracked me up. Apparently china doesn't realize that OEMs color code connectors and injectors and such so that the assemblers can easily tell if they're grabbing the right parts, not just 'cause they feel like making 24lb/hr injectors purple today instead of pink, for the hell of it.
- Location
- Torrance, CA
What cracks me up is they have two different spray patterns, probably two different flow rates and the exact same part number. Just different colors, which would never happen with a genuine OEM injector. :gee:
alexgalexg
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Connecticut
See this is what I wanted to make this thread. Proving these were junk with actual proof and explaining why. Thanks folks hopefully this will help a lot of people steer clear down the line.
I wish I could say I ended up with these out of stupidity. And i guess in a way i did. But someone i know put these in his 89 stroker and they are working to this day. I then saw these injectors marketed on the ksuspension page for the 4.0. I even sent him a message with my year and engine type to confirm! It's really sad to see someone doing this to the jeep community. I think we have the best vehicle community in the world. I'd call this case closed.
-Alexander
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I wish I could say I ended up with these out of stupidity. And i guess in a way i did. But someone i know put these in his 89 stroker and they are working to this day. I then saw these injectors marketed on the ksuspension page for the 4.0. I even sent him a message with my year and engine type to confirm! It's really sad to see someone doing this to the jeep community. I think we have the best vehicle community in the world. I'd call this case closed.
-Alexander
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lawsoncl
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- North Idaho
Here's what they're supposed to look like. All of the pictures of genuine bosch seem to have blue o-rings, which these don't.
http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/product-detail/-/product/0280156161
http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/product-detail/-/product/0280156161
- Location
- Torrance, CA
Color difference
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What's strapped onto the top one? Connector converter?
- Location
- Rainy side of Washington
Looks like it. Appears to be a USCAR/EV6 to Jetronic/EV1/Junior Power Timer connector adapter, I assume for running a newer injector in a 98ish? and down XJ.
old_man
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Loveland, Colorado
Why is everybody so opposed to going old school? How about a simple plug reading? It should tell you a bunch. To me it sounds like you are probably running too rich.
I went back to my OEM injectors with 180k on them. For some reason I started getting P020X codes last week or so and they kept happening on the 12 hole injectors. OEM injectors feel exactly the same but no codes or bucking. the only pro I can tell is the 12 holes fire the engine up immediately where the 1 hole injectors take another second of cranking.
- Location
- Rainy side of Washington
P020x indicates an electrical circuit fault on the injector controls. Only 3 things that can be:
the injector/injector connector
the harness/injector plug
the ECU
90% of the time on XJs it's the harness where it jumps from the engine to the firewall but given that swapping your OEM injectors made it go away, I'm going to blame the chinesium Ksuspension injectors or the connector on them. I'm actually kinda surprised, I would have expected the winding and plug in those injectors to be fine, it's not hard to get it right. I figured the mechanical components and nozzle would be the things to fail. Though one guy posted pictures of Ksuspension injectors that literally melted recently. They were replaced free, but... do you really want your injectors to melt? I don't. Sounds like a great way to start a car-be-que.
the injector/injector connector
the harness/injector plug
the ECU
90% of the time on XJs it's the harness where it jumps from the engine to the firewall but given that swapping your OEM injectors made it go away, I'm going to blame the chinesium Ksuspension injectors or the connector on them. I'm actually kinda surprised, I would have expected the winding and plug in those injectors to be fine, it's not hard to get it right. I figured the mechanical components and nozzle would be the things to fail. Though one guy posted pictures of Ksuspension injectors that literally melted recently. They were replaced free, but... do you really want your injectors to melt? I don't. Sounds like a great way to start a car-be-que.
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