Police shooting. Good shoot or Bad shoot?

[Trail-Axe]

Firing under stress is waaaaaay different than firing at a target. I bet a lot of these cops are good shots on the range, but when you might die adrenalin kicks in screws you up...I know in the USMC, I'd shoot mid to high sharpshooter all week when it didn't count and then come qual day I'd suck...AT that's not even that much stress.

Good point Darky. If person normally shoots a 12" group with a pistol at say 10 yards (at the range), then double that group size in a gun fight. Some factors that figure in are physical fitness, frequency of time spent at the range, time spent shooting while moving, shooting moving targets, moving while shooting moving targets, and time spent shooting with an elevated heart rate. A persons preconceived ideas of using deadly force may also factor in for some folks.

Contrary to popular belief, many street cops lack basic shooting skills, and their range time is often very minimal. Some departments require their officers to shoot twice a month, some once a month, and many only shoot twice a year.

 

[Hammered]

cell phone or not... even if he was "high on drugs" he was a danger to the public and needed to be brought down... 6 shots or 1000. Whatever it takes to keep LAW ABIDING PEOPLE Safe.

I would have to say, it might be a LITTLE safer if they used the shooting tazer... so there arent stray bullets wizzing around.

 

[msrorysddad]

It does not matter what he had in his hand. He was running from the police, resisting arrest, and combative. They should shoot more people that act that way. The reason some in our society choose to act in such a manner is that they can and do most often get away with little or no punishment. The "what if" game is a joke, what if they saw he had a phone, bla, bla, bla... He was committing a criminal act, he was wrong, it is his fault. The fact that some will try to demonize the police for the actions taken that night just shows the extent to which our society has devolved. He picked the outlaw trail, it is often cold lonely and deadly. As for the amount of shots fired, take your pistol to the range run around, think of taxes, get all pumped up, pick up your piece and fire away. As for one handed, I shoot from the hip one handed and am as accurate at that as with both. We must remember, this was no range, you don't have time to clear the firing line, or position yourself. I pray for the officer and his family, to take another's life, no matter how justified is nothing a man should wish for. I'm sure he's second guessing his actions, and will untill he dies.

 

[FordGuy]

Good point Darky. If person normally shoots a 12" group with a pistol at say 10 yards (at the range), then double that group size in a gun fight. Some factors that figure in are physical fitness, frequency of time spent at the range, time spent shooting while moving, shooting moving targets, moving while shooting moving targets, and time spent shooting with an elevated heart rate. A persons preconceived ideas of using deadly force may also factor in for some folks.

Contrary to popular belief, many street cops lack basic shooting skills, and their range time is often very minimal. Some departments require their officers to shoot twice a month, some once a month, and many only shoot twice a year.

I used to ride dirt bikes with a guy who was in the Brea Vice Narcotics dept, he was also the range master. He used to take me and my wife there for practice all the time, he use to make fun of me because I could never hit the moving targets worth a crap, would empty 15 rounds with my Beretta 92 and maybe hit the target twice, and never a kill shot. He would say "you think thats hard, try it while your chasing a guy and your adrenaline is pumping, you cant hit anything!" He always said he never worried about being hit in a foot chase!

 

[JoesXJ]

....If person normally shoots a 12" group with a pistol at say 10 yards (at the range), then .....

....then they should have to practice MUCH MORE or have thier gun taken away.

 

[Trail-Axe]

I used to ride dirt bikes with a guy who was in the Brea Vice Narcotics dept, he was also the range master. He used to take me and my wife there for practice all the time, he use to make fun of me because I could never hit the moving targets worth a crap, would empty 15 rounds with my Beretta 92 and maybe hit the target twice, and never a kill shot. He would say "you think that's hard, try it while your chasing a guy and your adrenaline is pumping, you cant hit anything!" He always said he never worried about being hit in a foot chase!

I here that! The bad thing about the foot chase is when the suspect jumps a high wall; the officer jumps over in the same spot and there is a gun waiting, instead of a suspect running. That will put ya into retirement right quick, if not the grave!
:hang:

 

[Trail-Axe]

....then they should have to practice MUCH MORE or have thier gun taken away.

I agree, but many departments have had to make budget cuts, and range time is one place those cuts get made for many smaller departments.

 

[bjoehandley]

I agree, but many departments have had to make budget cuts, and range time is one place those cuts get made for many smaller departments.

I'd be willing to spend a little of my own money on something like that if my ass was on the line like that of a cop.


BTW, you need a Hard to say option for this one.

 

[Trail-Axe]

BTW, you need a Hard to say option for this one.

Not if ya put yourself in the shooters boots. Very good shoot IMHO.

 

[GhostDakota]

It was completely justified IMO after seeing that second video.

 

[8Mud]

It does not matter what he had in his hand. He was running from the police, resisting arrest, and combative. They should shoot more people that act that way. The reason some in our society choose to act in such a manner is that they can and do most often get away with little or no punishment.

Seems fair to me, one in the forehead for arguing with the meter maid.
Morality 101, guy is dead, beyond pain, who has his death really hurt. The people he leaves behind. The people who actually hurt the most are the ones the Cop has never meant or likely seen.
The only reason more Cops don't get picked off by snippers, isn't fear, their training and skills, it's more likely the people many harass on a daily basis are more moral than they are.
Also some simple logic, people are wired for one of three responses, flight, freeze or fight.
So running is wrong, you take away that option, that only leaves two. Freeze is the ideal option, but who really knows what a persons instincts are going to cause to happen, before reason kicks in.
Anybody who says they have never had a momentary lapse in judgment and/or never done anything illegal, is lying through there teeth. So in effect it's just luck, you haven't been shot six times in the back by somebody trained and paid to have better judgment than you do at the moment.
A cop stops you, your pissed, the adrenalin is flowing, you reach into your breast pocket for your drivers license and get shot half a dozen times.
I've been pulled over enough times to know, that 50% or more is bullchit. So in effect the Police have precipitated a situation that could get you dead for no good reason, on many occasions.
Somebody sooner or later is going to have to balance human rights with Police rights. I for one don't think a Policeman's life is any more valuable than mine, or my wifes, or my sons, or my daughters.

 

[8Mud]

It was completely justified IMO after seeing that second video.

I still want to know what they were chasing him for in the first place? I noticed he had a broken tail light.

 

[Ray H]

I for one don't think a Policeman's life is any more valuable than mine, or my wifes, or my sons, or my daughters.

Grrr.
Youve just hit one of my pet peeves.
I hate that killing a police officer is an automatic capital offense but killing john Q public isnt. Talk about a slap in the face. Many years ago, when I carried a badge, my life was somehow worth more than it is now????? How stupid is that.

 

[8Mud]

Grrr.
Youve just hit one of my pet peeves.
I hate that killing a police officer is an automatic capital offense but killing john Q public isnt. Talk about a slap in the face. Many years ago, when I carried a badge, my life was somehow worth more than it is now????? How stupid is that.

I was once invited over to do a shoot with the German Border Police. We got in a little late, got our range briefing, but really didn't get a brief on the target scenario's. We shot first, then the Border Police. We all failed that round. My target had every round in the ten ring, middle of mass. Germans had all of there shots below the waist. I remember thinking at the time, that's dumb. I've gotten older, wiser and a bit more moral in my old age.
We eventually cleaned their clock's, once we understood the rules of engagement.
In the video that guy was standing in front of a picture window, at what looked like a market. Good shoot, bad shoot, dumb shoot.
I once had a 6 point buck in my scope, he was feeding so there wasn't any rush. I scoped him again and noticed a flicker of light behind him. I eventually figured out it was some guys TV 4-500 meters behind the buck and behind a pile of brush. There was a time I would have pulled the trigger the instant I had the cross hairs on target. That Buck had to wait for another day.
If somebody would have gotten shot and died in that store, would the Cop been charged and convicted?

 

[Trail-Axe]

8Mud wrote:If somebody would have gotten shot and died in that store, would the Cop been charged and convicted?

8Mud/ Ray H
You make some valid points, as do many others. Personally, I believe police officers are public servants. They are paid by our tax dollars to do the job they have sworn to do. They are not above the law, just well versed in it. Because of this fact, they are held to a higher standard by the citizens they serve, and the governments they represent.

The policeman should represent society's best, though not all do, and very few do all the time. A police officer has dedicated himself to protecting and serving the public in which he lives. A felonious assault against a policeman is in effect an assault against us all. So I personally believe that those who murder police officers should have an E-ticked ride to their final Judgement in front of God Himself. Those who felonious assault policemen have no regard for the human rights of society.

It is often easy to second guess an officers split second decision made in the field from the comfort of ones easy chair; it happens often. In the video in question, the officer was justified to use deadly force. This officer believed that his partner was in harms way when the suspect they were attempting to apprehend turned and motioned as if he were going to shoot him. If an innocent person would have been shot and killed, the officer would not be liable. Officers are exempt from liability when they are defending their own life, or the life of another from serious bodily harm and or death (but exempt or not, most officers would be deeply grieved if the innocent people they are sworn to protect were injured or killed).

It can be a very tough job, an officer is usually at a disadvantage when contacting people on a daily basis. He is not afforded the luxury of a well thought out plan, and unlike deer hunting (deer don't shoot back), he is not always able to let the big one get away and wait for another. He is sworn to protect, and this means he can not let a felon go, and wish himself better luck next time.

As far as an officer's life being worth more then those we know and love; I would not say more, but worth just as much. They may not protect us all from every crime committed, but they do play a vital role in our society in the prevention and apprehension of those who do not play well with others.

 

[Darky]

I think taking someone's someone's life ought to be a capital offense, no matter what. Cop, Civilian, military, you murder someone, you die too. The only exceptions would be manslaughter, ie unintentional killing, or negligence. However I'd make it hard to pursue a manslaughter or negligent homicide charge. If there was any motive, any shadow of a doubt that you didn't mean to, it's going up as murder, and if convicted you're dying as well.

 

[Trail-Axe]

I think taking someones life ought to be a capital offense, no matter what. Cop, Civilian, military, you murder someone, you die too. The only exceptions would be manslaughter, ie unintentional killing, or negligence. However I'd make it hard to pursue a manslaughter or negligent homicide charge. If there was any motive, any shadow of a doubt that you didn't mean to, it's going up as murder, and if convicted you're dying as well.

Amen. Dead murders are no longer a threat.
:hang: :skull2: :eyes:

 

[msrorysddad]

excuse me 8 who said arguing? If you choose to flee, and fight, be damned, die. He wasn't in a tiff with a parking maid. He chose to run in the largest weapon a civilian can own (auto) when he was stopped, he exited the ride took off and began fighting. Lets not stray off into the twilight zone. He was a crook, to make up excuses as to why he should have been saved from a fate he well chose is once again to give up the rights of others for the "rights" of one. HE WAS/IS A CROOK. Feel sorry for his loved ones, yes, and no, I didn't raise him, some good people have bad kin. So that argument also doesn't hold up well. As far as whose life is worth more, well boys and girls give me productive members of society as neighbors, and move all the crooks and crackheads to your street. I figure if you run and fight the police need to stand and take aim, and stop the fight and the flight. To say that we all could have been smoked, well, if I ever acted like that, let's go, kill away. Remember guys we're dealing with reality. I FEEL like this kid shoulda been saved from this situation, and lived to be an active member of the community. However my feelings are far removed from fact. I honestly believe the police should be more like the Texas DPS of old. They handed down ass kickins, liberally. Sounds harsh 'till you realize that back then they were and should be held to a higher standard, they for the most part were the "good guys". I know more than one recipient of a beat down of old, and they all told me the next time the red and blue was behind them they did as they were told. Do you think, see here I go second gussing, do you think if when he got out and acted as he did a severe beat down would have saved him? Remember, it's hard to do much when your trying to recieve a beatin, believe me, I've tried. Love ya'll

 

[8Mud]

excuse me 8 who said arguing? If you choose to flee, and fight, be damned, die. He wasn't in a tiff with a parking maid. He chose to run in the largest weapon a civilian can own (auto) when he was stopped, he exited the ride took off and began fighting. Lets not stray off into the twilight zone. He was a crook, to make up excuses as to why he should have been saved from a fate he well chose is once again to give up the rights of others for the "rights" of one. HE WAS/IS A CROOK. Feel sorry for his loved ones, yes, and no, I didn't raise him, some good people have bad kin. So that argument also doesn't hold up well. As far as whose life is worth more, well boys and girls give me productive members of society as neighbors, and move all the crooks and crackheads to your street. I figure if you run and fight the police need to stand and take aim, and stop the fight and the flight. To say that we all could have been smoked, well, if I ever acted like that, let's go, kill away. Remember guys we're dealing with reality. I FEEL like this kid shoulda been saved from this situation, and lived to be an active member of the community. However my feelings are far removed from fact. I honestly believe the police should be more like the Texas DPS of old. They handed down ass kickins, liberally. Sounds harsh 'till you realize that back then they were and should be held to a higher standard, they for the most part were the "good guys". I know more than one recipient of a beat down of old, and they all told me the next time the red and blue was behind them they did as they were told. Do you think, see here I go second gussing, do you think if when he got out and acted as he did a severe beat down would have saved him? Remember, it's hard to do much when your trying to recieve a beatin, believe me, I've tried. Love ya'll

My point was, everybody, without exception, everybody period, has made a bad judgment call at one time or another, should they be fatal (or cause serious injury)? I don't see the polices job as helping Darwin out. The guy wasn't attacking, he was fleeing, bad judgment sure, Capital offense not in my mind, no way.
Stuff happens and people die, trying to avoid the preventable deaths should in my mind, be a moral objective. Deadly force should be used as a last resort. Unnecessary excessive force causes more problems than it solves.
Fleeing felons are another thing and require different rules.
I still say many Police over react, make hormone driven mistakes that a reasonable person would expect them to avoid.
Radio ahead and block off the streets. Use your binoculars to get his license plate number, make of car and any identifying marks like dents etc. Take casts of the tire tread, if they drive in the dirt. Pictures if you can, I have a dandy camera. The pictures can be enhanced radically. Apprehend about half, deter the other half (scare the hell out of them), enough in my book.
Just an opinion, but running some apparently mildly retarded, likely stoned person to ground, then shooting him dead, is poor procedure and likely causes way more problems in the long run than it will ever solve.
I still say thumping or shooting the runners is eventually going to breed fighters. I for one am happier when they run and don't fight.
Is it possible, if you drive the number of runners down, you may be increasing the kamikaze's?
There is no defense against a decent shot from a rifle at 200 meters. Most everybody is a creature of habit and can be ambushed.
In my experience, Cowboy cops and the incompetent often die young and should be weeded out before they die or do more damage than good.
Who was it that said a fearful population is a dangerous population? Montague I think.

 

[Ray H]

excuse me 8 who said arguing? If you choose to flee, and fight, be damned, die. He wasn't in a tiff with a parking maid. He chose to run in the largest weapon a civilian can own (auto) when he was stopped, he exited the ride took off and began fighting. Lets not stray off into the twilight zone. He was a crook, to make up excuses as to why he should have been saved from a fate he well chose is once again to give up the rights of others for the "rights" of one. HE WAS/IS A CROOK. Feel sorry for his loved ones, yes, and no, I didn't raise him, some good people have bad kin. So that argument also doesn't hold up well. As far as whose life is worth more, well boys and girls give me productive members of society as neighbors, and move all the crooks and crackheads to your street. I figure if you run and fight the police need to stand and take aim, and stop the fight and the flight. To say that we all could have been smoked, well, if I ever acted like that, let's go, kill away. Remember guys we're dealing with reality. I FEEL like this kid shoulda been saved from this situation, and lived to be an active member of the community. However my feelings are far removed from fact. I honestly believe the police should be more like the Texas DPS of old. They handed down ass kickins, liberally. Sounds harsh 'till you realize that back then they were and should be held to a higher standard, they for the most part were the "good guys". I know more than one recipient of a beat down of old, and they all told me the next time the red and blue was behind them they did as they were told. Do you think, see here I go second gussing, do you think if when he got out and acted as he did a severe beat down would have saved him? Remember, it's hard to do much when your trying to recieve a beatin, believe me, I've tried. Love ya'll

Have you got a crystal ball? Its funny when someone says the cop is to blame, the common reaction is "you can't say that by just watching a few seconds of video" but its somehow ok to say the "criminal" is to blame by watching the same few seconds of video.
I dont mind who a person sides with but at least be fair about what you see and dont see.
This isnt directed at you in particular msrorysddad. Its just a general statement directed at those who were adamant about people drawing conclusions from a short internet video.