Doc Holliday
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Portsmouth, VA
:twak: You wouldnt have asked that if you had been following this thread. :roflmao:
-
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Optima Batteries
- Thread starter Tryfan
- Start date
iwannadie
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Gilbert, Az
If anything, this thread pushed me into trying an optima. I was originally against them just because of the cost and being no longer made in the USA. After considering the pros/cons and hearing endless positive experiences from people who bought the battery new and not used, I decided to give it a shot. Worst case, the battery fails within 3 years and I get a new one free under warranty. Worst case it lasts just over 3 years and I am out the $168 or whatever I paid and re-evaluate my battery of choice.
So far I am happy and my XJ has never started so quick, it is like instant start as soon as I touch the key. Even in the past with a brand new battery I have never had such a instant start.
So far I am happy and my XJ has never started so quick, it is like instant start as soon as I touch the key. Even in the past with a brand new battery I have never had such a instant start.
Milford Cubicle II
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Out there.
Oh, and I almost forgot. Optima does NOT use pure lead in their plates, like other AGM manufacturers do.
hubs97xj
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Fort Wayne, IN
Still tilting at windmills, I see.
Milford Cubicle II
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Out there.
Lol, you're the one ignoring pertinent facts to defend something, mainly because you spent a lot of money on it. But if you think that using crap lead, precariously thin plates that are arranged in a space-inefficient manner, and having less capacity than an equivalent traditional AGM battery isn't something to consider when purchasing a battery, then of course you're not going to understand.
Milford Cubicle II
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Out there.
Oh looky here. I found a really interesting tidbit on Odyssey's site:
And guess what. Odyssey batteries outperform optima in EVERY measurable aspect. And that's no coincidence.
And guess what. Odyssey batteries outperform optima in EVERY measurable aspect. And that's no coincidence.
Ronbo
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- San Marcos, CA
Odyssey recommends the 34-PC1500T @ $302.($371.00 MSRP) for my 98. That means 15% more plate surface area at 100% price increase? I would think totally-more-awesomeness is guaranteed. :dunno:
dieselenthusiast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Zuni Mountains, New Mexico
I’ll agree that Odyssey is the best, hands down.
And Ronbo is correct, you will obviously pay more for it.
I bought the Odyssey PC1500/Sears Platinum P1 for my Jeep Liberty. It’s a Group Size 34 (with exchange) $219.99
tbburg
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Scottsdale AZ
While the argument is fun to follow, we have lost sight of the point of the thread( Hint: it wasn't to argue. :looney: ) The fact is, if you never worry about rolling over, you don't need anything other then a conventional tech. lead-acid battery, and they're a butt-load cheaper then any of the alternatives. If your major concern is running a stereo, rolling over probably isn't a huge issue. If your major concern is powering a winch,.. slightly different story. When you're on the side of a trail, on your side, and the winch you want to use for recovery is attached to the battery under your hood, whether or not the acid has all spilled out of it becomes a legitimate concern. As long as the battery is upright, it really doesn't matter.
Milford: obviously, you don't like Optima batteries. Optimajim works for Optima. His posts sound like he sincerely believes they're a good product. Even if he doesn't have a high personal opinion of Optima batteries, he's not going to agree with you on a public forum.
Optimajim isn't going to debate the merits/drawbacks of different size/group batteries with you. It's a marketing thing. It's an "I like to stay employed" thing. Plus, he probably doesn't have the stats available to make an informed comparison, and probably isn't going to look them up/have someone run a test, and he's not going to talk out his a**. Personal aside: several people have pointed out that the batt you're comparing the Optima to is double the price. If I was willing to pay double the price that I paid for my XJ, I could have had a real nice Rubicon, that would out-perform my XJ in almost every off-road situation I can think of, short of spending that extra 12 grand on the XJ.
Optimajim has already answered you a couple times about why your battery failed. Here's the short version:
In all honesty, you're making yourself look bad. The original thread question:
(i know it's bad form to refer to the original topic of a thread around here, but,..
)
You gave him your opinion: "Don't buy an Optima." :lecture:
You gave him your reasoning: "I had one, and it sucked" :wow:
You gave him an option: "Buy anything else but an Optima." :lecture:
Optimajim gave his take on your advice: "He's full of it." :doh:
EVERYTHING else you've said has made you look worse. Several other posters have said they had Optimas fail, just like you did. Many(most) of them went out and got a second one(Yep, I'm one of them,.. "the definition of insanity: Repeating the same action again and again and expecting a different result." ) Interestingly, most of us have had a different result.
What I've gotten from this thread(including my own posts);
1: We like to argue.
2: AGM batteries are good technology,but expensive. Don't run them flat, or you likely will be buying another one.
3: We REALLY like to argue.
4: Sometimes sh*t breaks, we don't always know why.
5: We F***ing LOVE to M***ERF***ING argue.
Milford: obviously, you don't like Optima batteries. Optimajim works for Optima. His posts sound like he sincerely believes they're a good product. Even if he doesn't have a high personal opinion of Optima batteries, he's not going to agree with you on a public forum.
Optimajim isn't going to debate the merits/drawbacks of different size/group batteries with you. It's a marketing thing. It's an "I like to stay employed" thing. Plus, he probably doesn't have the stats available to make an informed comparison, and probably isn't going to look them up/have someone run a test, and he's not going to talk out his a**. Personal aside: several people have pointed out that the batt you're comparing the Optima to is double the price. If I was willing to pay double the price that I paid for my XJ, I could have had a real nice Rubicon, that would out-perform my XJ in almost every off-road situation I can think of, short of spending that extra 12 grand on the XJ.
Optimajim has already answered you a couple times about why your battery failed. Here's the short version:
Short of tearing the failed component down, nobody can know for sure. It's all educated guesswork. He can't even make an educated guess, because he doesn't know how old the battery was, how it was used, etc. It could be a manufacturing flaw. It could be your charging system is over- or under-charging. 'Could be a piece of a plate broke off and shorted out a cell. It could be a mechanical failure of one of the terminal post connections inside the battery, or a connection between cells. He doesn't know. What I'm reading in his answers to you is that he doesn't know why your batt. failed, and he can't even guess at the cause.
In all honesty, you're making yourself look bad. The original thread question:
(i know it's bad form to refer to the original topic of a thread around here, but,..
)He asked for opinions, and options.
You gave him your opinion: "Don't buy an Optima." :lecture:
You gave him your reasoning: "I had one, and it sucked" :wow:
You gave him an option: "Buy anything else but an Optima." :lecture:
Optimajim gave his take on your advice: "He's full of it." :doh:
EVERYTHING else you've said has made you look worse. Several other posters have said they had Optimas fail, just like you did. Many(most) of them went out and got a second one(Yep, I'm one of them,.. "the definition of insanity: Repeating the same action again and again and expecting a different result." ) Interestingly, most of us have had a different result.
What I've gotten from this thread(including my own posts);
1: We like to argue.
2: AGM batteries are good technology,but expensive. Don't run them flat, or you likely will be buying another one.
3: We REALLY like to argue.
4: Sometimes sh*t breaks, we don't always know why.
5: We F***ing LOVE to M***ERF***ING argue.
hubs97xj
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Fort Wayne, IN
Aaaaand [/thread].
b.jenks, besides the fact that the diameter of our Spiralcells varies, based on battery group size, the problems I would have in estimating the volume of our batteries is that I'd have to ask how thick our case is (that varies from one manufacturer to the next) and how tall our cells are inside our case.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Optima uses a continuous cast strap to join adjacent cells and there are no welds to add resistance or corrosion points between the cells. A cast strap is unique to Optima, proprietary, more expensive, and more difficult to manufacture, but it is a process that gives superior performance. A larger and/or better-designed, manufactured or connected strap will allow better high current flow due to lower internal resistance, which can be reflected in the CCA rating. This also allows the Optima design to use taller cells and thus, in general, to have higher electrical performance characteristics because there is more active material present. The weight of a battery does reflect the volume of the battery, the thickness of the plates and quality of materials (we do still use 99.99% pure lead, which is fairly standard practice amongst AGM manufacturers).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Milford Cubicle II, I appreciate the advice about not disparging used vehicles and I hope you didn't misinterpret what I said about my preference for new vehicles (I haven't bought a new vehicle since 2002). I just prefer the increased reliability and complete knowledge of the service history of the vehicles I own. I do realize the only way I'll ever find the Cyclone I'm looking for is if I buy it used, but that vehicle will probably be totally taken apart and re-assembled when I do find the right one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The question battery manufacturers often wish they could ask consumers is at what point does a battery no longer fail from a manufacturing defect, but from use or misuse? As I previously indicated, many of our batteries that are used in government/military applications are taken out of service at specific intervals. Without knowing the service history of the used battery you purchased, it is impossible to know what kind of application it was used in and why it was removed from service. Was it in a parallel application, where they other battery failed and both had to be replaced? Was it cycled to 80 or 90% of it's projected lifespan and then replaced? Cycling is enough of a concern for some battery manufacturers, that their warranties are voided after a specific number of cycles, regardless of the battery's age. We do not place such limitations on our warranty for number of cycles or minimum voltage levels.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]WNC95xj, if you are going to upgrade your stereo, I would strongly encourage you to do “The Big 3” and make sure all of your wiring and grounds are in good shape. Cranking amps should only be a concern for you as it relates to the requirements of your engine for starting. Beyond that, reserve capacity and the ability to be deep-cycled should be strong considerations for the battery (or batteries) you purchase. If your headlights are dimming, that indicates your alternator is not producing enough energy to meet your vehicle's demands at that moment. A new battery can mask dimming and shortcomings of a substandard electrical/charging system for a period of time, but those issues will eventually manifest themselves again, if not addressed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jim McIlvaine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]www.facebook.com/optimabatteries [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Optima uses a continuous cast strap to join adjacent cells and there are no welds to add resistance or corrosion points between the cells. A cast strap is unique to Optima, proprietary, more expensive, and more difficult to manufacture, but it is a process that gives superior performance. A larger and/or better-designed, manufactured or connected strap will allow better high current flow due to lower internal resistance, which can be reflected in the CCA rating. This also allows the Optima design to use taller cells and thus, in general, to have higher electrical performance characteristics because there is more active material present. The weight of a battery does reflect the volume of the battery, the thickness of the plates and quality of materials (we do still use 99.99% pure lead, which is fairly standard practice amongst AGM manufacturers).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Milford Cubicle II, I appreciate the advice about not disparging used vehicles and I hope you didn't misinterpret what I said about my preference for new vehicles (I haven't bought a new vehicle since 2002). I just prefer the increased reliability and complete knowledge of the service history of the vehicles I own. I do realize the only way I'll ever find the Cyclone I'm looking for is if I buy it used, but that vehicle will probably be totally taken apart and re-assembled when I do find the right one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The question battery manufacturers often wish they could ask consumers is at what point does a battery no longer fail from a manufacturing defect, but from use or misuse? As I previously indicated, many of our batteries that are used in government/military applications are taken out of service at specific intervals. Without knowing the service history of the used battery you purchased, it is impossible to know what kind of application it was used in and why it was removed from service. Was it in a parallel application, where they other battery failed and both had to be replaced? Was it cycled to 80 or 90% of it's projected lifespan and then replaced? Cycling is enough of a concern for some battery manufacturers, that their warranties are voided after a specific number of cycles, regardless of the battery's age. We do not place such limitations on our warranty for number of cycles or minimum voltage levels.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]WNC95xj, if you are going to upgrade your stereo, I would strongly encourage you to do “The Big 3” and make sure all of your wiring and grounds are in good shape. Cranking amps should only be a concern for you as it relates to the requirements of your engine for starting. Beyond that, reserve capacity and the ability to be deep-cycled should be strong considerations for the battery (or batteries) you purchase. If your headlights are dimming, that indicates your alternator is not producing enough energy to meet your vehicle's demands at that moment. A new battery can mask dimming and shortcomings of a substandard electrical/charging system for a period of time, but those issues will eventually manifest themselves again, if not addressed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jim McIlvaine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]www.facebook.com/optimabatteries [/FONT]
Milford Cubicle II
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Out there.
You're right, this has gone waaaay off topic.
I'd hope that (other than being argumentative) posting good battery tech and raising legitimate concerns of going with an optima battery or one similar to it hasn't made me look bad though :dunno:
To sum it up, I'd have serious hesitation in buying an AGM deep cycle battery like optima (or odyssey for that matter) because the extremely thin plates go against the very nature of a true deep cycle battery.
Also, I would argue that when a Jeeper goes battery shopping, CCA's should be all but ignored. The truth is, even the smallest, cheapest batteries will have more than enough CCA's to crank our ultra high compression 4.0's in even the coldest temps with no problems whatsoever. That's been my experience. Because if you're not worried about CCA's, then you can focus on what I believe is much more important to a Jeeper: capacity. Mainly in the form of reserve capacity which is just a different, more practical way to measure what is referred to as capacity. There's obviously a plethora of examples of when running things off your battery without the engine running is important or convenient, I don't think I need to remind anyone of that.
Which battery is going to get you closer to home in the event of an alternator or charging failure: one with a butt-load of CCA's or one with a butt-load of capacity? Cause ya can't have both in any given same size battery :nono: Obviously the higher capacity battery is going to get you a lot further and to top it off, it's going to be much more likely that you're gunna get home and charge it up and it's gunna be good to go whereas the other, high CCA battery, is most likely going to be trash soon if not immediately.
And for those who don't actually deep cycle their battery very often (which applies to me, I don't cycle my deep cycles very often at all and when I do, I rarely even get down below 80% Depth Of Discharge) then you're still most likely better off going with a deep(er) cycle battery because you're essentially operating your battery far UNDER it's specified limits. Just like with anything else, that's going to make it last much longer. Whether it's having a battery designed to be cycled to 50% DOD over 500 times and only cycling it to 80% DOD a handful of times, or driving a Jeep Speed rig down the gravel road and back to get the mail, running something far below what it's designed to do is almost always going to cause it to last much longer and be more reliable.
For the money, go pick up a good lead-acid with lots of reserve capacity (or an all out deep cycle) from a reputable brand. It'll do you good, they're definitely the best value. If money is no object then go order a specialty AGM deep cycle such as the Lifeline brand I referenced earlier. To be honest, I don't know much about deep cycle AGM batteries because they're not gunna be in my price range for a while, lol :doh:
I'd hope that (other than being argumentative) posting good battery tech and raising legitimate concerns of going with an optima battery or one similar to it hasn't made me look bad though :dunno:
To sum it up, I'd have serious hesitation in buying an AGM deep cycle battery like optima (or odyssey for that matter) because the extremely thin plates go against the very nature of a true deep cycle battery.
Also, I would argue that when a Jeeper goes battery shopping, CCA's should be all but ignored. The truth is, even the smallest, cheapest batteries will have more than enough CCA's to crank our ultra high compression 4.0's in even the coldest temps with no problems whatsoever. That's been my experience. Because if you're not worried about CCA's, then you can focus on what I believe is much more important to a Jeeper: capacity. Mainly in the form of reserve capacity which is just a different, more practical way to measure what is referred to as capacity. There's obviously a plethora of examples of when running things off your battery without the engine running is important or convenient, I don't think I need to remind anyone of that.
Which battery is going to get you closer to home in the event of an alternator or charging failure: one with a butt-load of CCA's or one with a butt-load of capacity? Cause ya can't have both in any given same size battery :nono: Obviously the higher capacity battery is going to get you a lot further and to top it off, it's going to be much more likely that you're gunna get home and charge it up and it's gunna be good to go whereas the other, high CCA battery, is most likely going to be trash soon if not immediately.
And for those who don't actually deep cycle their battery very often (which applies to me, I don't cycle my deep cycles very often at all and when I do, I rarely even get down below 80% Depth Of Discharge) then you're still most likely better off going with a deep(er) cycle battery because you're essentially operating your battery far UNDER it's specified limits. Just like with anything else, that's going to make it last much longer. Whether it's having a battery designed to be cycled to 50% DOD over 500 times and only cycling it to 80% DOD a handful of times, or driving a Jeep Speed rig down the gravel road and back to get the mail, running something far below what it's designed to do is almost always going to cause it to last much longer and be more reliable.
For the money, go pick up a good lead-acid with lots of reserve capacity (or an all out deep cycle) from a reputable brand. It'll do you good, they're definitely the best value. If money is no object then go order a specialty AGM deep cycle such as the Lifeline brand I referenced earlier. To be honest, I don't know much about deep cycle AGM batteries because they're not gunna be in my price range for a while, lol :doh:
- Location
- Las Vegas, NV
Sears Platinum. Also AGM like the Optima, but with a 4 year replacement and 100 month pro-rate. Made in the USA. And the Die Hard is cheaper than the Optima yellow top.
iwannadie
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Gilbert, Az
I had a horrible customer service experience with sears(the automotive separate store), I had an issue with a diehard battery. It was not a Platinum but it was testing bad at 2 different places but sears would not replace it under warranty and gave me the run around for over a week. I decided then, I would never buy a battery from them again.
- Location
- Las Vegas, NV
Jim,
Just this week, I had to replace my third Yellow Top Opitma battery. I bought the first one early in 2003, shortly after buying my 1999 XJ in October 2002. That one lasted four years.
One day in 2007 I woke up to a dead battery. A jump from AAA started the Jeep and I drove it to the mechanic. There's only one place in town here that specializes in 4x4 vehicles and that's who I use. At the time, I replaced one, I also had to replace my alternator. Not sure if the battery took out the alternator or the other way around. The shop installed a new alternator and a new Yellow Top.
In January of 2010 that battery died and was pro-rated warrantied. I was rather upset to learn that at the time Optima's warranty was only a two year free replacement. Nevertheless, I am loyal and I again took the pro-rated warranty and the shop installed a new battery.
That one died last Monday night. I had driven the Jeep the day before with no issues. Monday, the battery showed no signs of life. No clicking, no headlight, not even an idiot light on the dash. I called my mechanic and verified that the battery was still covered under the free replacement time period. Here's what my "free" replacement cost me:
$19.95 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM TEST
$12.95 NON CORROSION BATTERY TREATMENT
$ 5.00 BATTERY CORROSION PAD
$ 7.95 NON CORROSION LABOR
______
$45.85 Total
Never again. Jim, I don't know if this is Optima's warranty policy or the shop squeezing more money out of me, but I'm done. I know that Sears does not charge to warranty a free replacement battery.
Jim,
I'll be happy to email you a .pdf of the invoice.
iwannadie
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Gilbert, Az
You basically paid the shop 25 bucks to spray some anti corrosion spray onto the terminals, and install 2 pads under the terminals? I would not hold anyone responsible except the shop that charged you and I imagine any battery they install would have that same fee.
- Location
- Las Vegas, NV
You're right except that I was told it was a free replacement and no mention was made of any other charges, nor did I okay them.
iwannadie
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Gilbert, Az
I don't want to come off as an optima fanboy because really I am not at all. However, if the shop did that I don't see how it has anything to do with the battery manufacturer. If the shop charged you for unauthorized service then you had every right to decline to pay. I still say, no matter what battery or warranty that you went into that shop with they were going to squeeze those same fees from you.
If it were me, I would never have them touch my vehicle at all. I would remove the battery and take them the battery to replace, if they declined my warranty I would call the manufacturer.
The shop saw you coming, not optima.
