Optima Batteries

[hubs97xj]

I think that means there's an Optima battery (or several) in there...

I know it's heresy, but my Duralast lead acid (another Johnson Controls product?) has been zero trouble for six years and change. Can't tell where it was manufactured, it's pretty filthy at the moment.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Milford Cubicle II, I'm sorry to hear you were not able to take a picture of your used BlueTop's label, so we could verify exactly how old it was. Regardless of it's age, our BlueTops can be found in a wide variety of military and government applications, some of them far more demanding than others. Although I am not allowed to discuss specific applications, I can say that some batteries in more demanding applications will be changed out after a specific length of time, regardless of the battery's performance in that application. In some instances, this length of time may be measured in hours. Without knowing the exact application, usage and service history, purchasing any used battery from anyone, even with a load-test report from a carbon pile tester, is a gamble at best.

Sorry, but being dropped from an airplane isn't "far more demanding" than what we do. Jeep Speed and or amateur prerunners/go fast racers subject their batteries to much more abuse than simply being chuted out of a cargo plane, if that was the point of the link. Just making a point, that optimas aren't any better than many other batteries.

Speaking of deceptive marketing, I really like how optima compares its batteries (which are AGM, obviously) to old style lead acid batteries. Talk about apples to oranges.

And don't get me started on the inherent compromises of the very design of optimas. Significantly less plate surface area than AGM's of the same footprint. The "spiral cell" BS is nothing more than marketing hype. How else do you explain the following:

Optima D27M:
Volume: 726.49 cubic inches
Capacity: 66 AH (20 hour rate)
Weight: 53.8 pounds
Lifeline GPL-24T:
Volume: 679.49 cubic inches
Capacity 80 AH (20 hour rate)
Weight: 56 pounds

The smaller batter has a higher capacity than the optima and also weighs more than the optima. This is mainly due to all the dead space between the fancy, gimmicky "spiral cells." So what else can you do to make up the differential in surface area in a battery with limited space? Make the plates thinner and cram them in as tightly as possible. Obviously, this results in a battery with a high number of CCA's but low energy density (capacity) as well as an increased likelihood of an internal short (trashed battery) due to the increased dependency on the separator material.

Where as a traditional battery can use much thicker plates as well as separator material because there's no dead space in their design. This results in a battery that is able to be cycled many more times than an optima - Optima: 300 unknown DOD cycles, Lifeline: 1,000+ 50% DOD cycles, 500 100% DOD cycles. The fact that optima doesn't give their rated number of DOD cycles is pretty suspect to me as well.

I'm not a Lifeline salesman or anything, they're just the first company that popped up when I googled agm batteries. I'd be willing to bet that the same results would occur with about any other AGM battery manufacturer.

Oh, and do you care to explain yet how the battery would work for over a year before deciding to crap out if it was previously damaged? I'm still waiting

 

[iwannadie]

I picked up my optima redtop 34/78 today at my local napa. The group 34 was more pricey and not in stock so I opted to go with the 34/78 and have the side terminals incase I want to make use of them. It was $168 or something like that and brand new in shrink wrap lol.

I will be sure to keep the thread up to date about the longevity of this battery. I will say it seems like a nicely made battery and it is much heavier than the bigger walmart battery it replaced and I think double the claimed CCA rating.

I would like to get a nice battery box for it now, it fits fine in the stock tray and uses the hold down fine but it really deserves a specific made box ha.

 

[techno1154]

I picked up my optima redtop 34/78 today at my local napa. The group 34 was more pricey and not in stock so I opted to go with the 34/78 and have the side terminals incase I want to make use of them. It was $168 or something like that and brand new in shrink wrap lol.

I will be sure to keep the thread up to date about the longevity of this battery. I will say it seems like a nicely made battery and it is much heavier than the bigger walmart battery it replaced and I think double the claimed CCA rating.

I would like to get a nice battery box for it now, it fits fine in the stock tray and uses the hold down fine but it really deserves a specific made box ha.

Congratulations on an excelent purchase. I have 2 of the 34/78 in my XJ. Been there more than 3 years each. I had 1 previously died in its infancy. I left the XJ for 18 months and went over seas. On my return the volt meter (VOA) read 9 volts or less on the battery. Recharged it and it worked about a week at a time before it required recharging. Having the XJ charging system normal peak about 13.5 volts did not help either. I returned it Auto Zone and go a brand new replacement no questions asked. That was early 2009.

Fast forward to the present. I have a Sunsei SE-1500 solar panel connected to the batteries. Left the US and the XJ the middle of 2009. Two weeks ago I sat in the driveway in a rental car and pressed the remote start for the XJ. The engine swing real fast and fired right up the first time. I never did get out of the rental car. The XJ ran about 15 minutes as programed by the remote start equipment then shut down. I was/am impressed.

Despite what others have said about the Optima batteries, I am quite happy with those I have owned. :smsoap:

Question? To Optima Jim,....How much amps could the side terminals safetly sustain? I would like to connect my winch to them. :dunce:

 

[rocknxj]

I picked up my optima redtop 34/78 today at my local napa. The group 34 was more pricey and not in stock so I opted to go with the 34/78 and have the side terminals incase I want to make use of them. It was $168 or something like that and brand new in shrink wrap lol.

I will be sure to keep the thread up to date about the longevity of this battery. I will say it seems like a nicely made battery and it is much heavier than the bigger walmart battery it replaced and I think double the claimed CCA rating.

I would like to get a nice battery box for it now, it fits fine in the stock tray and uses the hold down fine but it really deserves a specific made box ha.

I am using the RuffStuff stainless steel Optima battery box in my XJ for my Red Top and I like it. You may need to modify the stock battery tray to make it fit, but I have a write up someplace on the Frog Blog.

My kid runs the Yellow Top and I'm on my second Red Top purchase. I'm sold on them and have never had a problem with any of them in 4 years. I have had less success with my Blue Top that I purchased in June for my travel trailer, but me thinks I need a second one to meet the electrical demands of the trailer.

 

[iwannadie]

I am using the RuffStuff stainless steel Optima battery box in my XJ for my Red Top and I like it. You may need to modify the stock battery tray to make it fit, but I have a write up someplace on the Frog Blog.

I have seen the RuffStuff box and I actually saw your post about it earlier today. I am kinda surprised that no one makes a direct bolt in box. I would really rather not re-use the factory plastic box but I guess it will not really be load bearing. It would just be nice to have something that drops right in.

 

[OptimaJim]

SaMo_XJ, take a second look at that video an see if you can find the Optima BlueTops. Being dropped from an airplane is a walk in the park, compared to what those batteries go through once they're on the ground.

Millford Cubicle II, while there are significant differences between traditional flooded lead-acid batteries and AGM batteries, comparing car batteries is hardly an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing two batteries of different group sizes, as you did, would be an apples to oranges comparison. Likewise, ignoring cranking amps as a point of comparison also fails to present a full picture.

As I previously indicated, most consumers who are concerned about the number of cycles a battery can tolerate will actually perform their own testing in their own specific applications. Our batteries are designed and marketed for the automotive and marine markets, where the number of cycles is far less of a concern to the vast majority of consumers, than cranking amps and reserve capacity.

Patrick, our side terminals are designed for the short bursts of power required for starting and are not designed (or warrantied) for the type of longer duration draws typical of winching applications.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[techno1154]

Patrick, our side terminals are designed for the short bursts of power required for starting and are not designed (or warrantied) for the type of longer duration draws typical of winching applications.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Thank you. I may probably put some accessories on the side terminals. :dunno:

Back to the drawing board. :cheers:

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Millford Cubicle II, while there are significant differences between traditional flooded lead-acid batteries and AGM batteries, comparing car batteries is hardly an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing two batteries of different group sizes, as you did, would be an apples to oranges comparison.

Let me clarify, because you're obviously having trouble. The size difference is intentional. The obvious point is that the smaller battery has a much greater capacity than the larger, optima battery. Get it now?

And I probably don't need to explain to most on this board why reserve capacity is extremely important to those who winch, run auxiliary lighting, inverters, radios, fridges, blah blah blah you get the point.

Likewise, ignoring cranking amps as a point of comparison also fails to present a full picture.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Obviously, this results in a battery with a high number of CCA's...

Apparently reading isn't part of an "eCare Manager's" job description...

 

[cal]

Milford,

A manufacturer is coming to our forums trying to offer information and support.

STOP BEING AN ASS.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Haha I'm sorry!

But seriously, I'm honestly just pointing out some facts about optima batteries that others may otherwise not know. And those facts are important to those who are shopping for batteries. I've learned from my mistake, I'm trying to help others avoid the same one - paying way too much for a battery that's really no better and in some cases may be worse than many others.

I don't think there's anything wrong with publishing FACTS about a manufacturer's product. Also, isn't it part of his "ecare" JOB to get on forums and defend optima?

I'm sure he appreciates your concern though, it's not often that someone comes out of the woodwork just to try to make someone else's job easier :cheers:

 

[cal]

I didn't say don't make points, debate, argue or even fight. I love a good technical argument..


I just said don't behave like Cracker.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Yea yea yea... well we'll see if jimmy even replies to the technical parts of my argument. I'd be surprised if he did. It's hard to argue when you know you're wrong

I'm not very familiar with "cracker," but I'll try my best not to behave like him :dunno:

 

[OptimaJim]

Milford Cubicle II, in all the time I've been doing this work, I've heard people compare batteries in a lot of different ways, typically starting with price and warranty (neither of which you've mentioned). I've never heard anyone compare batteries by volume. To be honest with you, because of the Spiralcell design of our batteries, I wouldn't even know how to accurately calculate the volume of our batteries without asking one of our engineers. I do know the volume you cited for our battery, by simply multiplying the length, width and height, is overstated, as those dimensions indicate the maximum space occupied by the battery and do not reflect the actual volume of the battery itself.

If you want to compare our Group 27 battery with anyone else's, an accurate comparison is with another Group 27 battery. The BCI came up with universal specifications to allow consumers to make an apples to apples comparison. If you want to dissect those numbers further, by comparing reserve capacity per pound, cranking amps per pound or even price per pound, you are welcome to do that.

I am glad to hear you learned from your mistake of purchasing a used battery with an unknown service history. I haven't bought a used vehicle since 1990, simply because I got tired of dealing with issues created and/or ignored by previous owners. I don't buy second-hand tires, used batteries or any other second-hand products for my vehicles that have a finite life cycle and can potentially leave me stranded if they fail. While I understand the risk and reward is different for everyone, it just isn't worth the hassle for me.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[b.jenks]

... because of the Spiralcell design of our batteries, I wouldn't even know how to accurately calculate the volume of our batteries without asking one of our engineers. I do know the volume you cited for our battery, by simply multiplying the length, width and height, is overstated, as those dimensions indicate the maximum space occupied by the battery and do not reflect the actual volume of the battery itself.
...
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Not jumping into an argument over contrasting battery volumes, or whether it matters, but ...

Volume of 6 cylinders is easy to calculate, although the result would still be an estimate.

Total volume of a battery of any shape is very easy to determine with great accuracy (again, if it matters) via displacement.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Milford Cubicle II, in all the time I've been doing this work, I've heard people compare batteries in a lot of different ways, typically starting with price and warranty (neither of which you've mentioned). I've never heard anyone compare batteries by volume. To be honest with you, because of the Spiralcell design of our batteries, I wouldn't even know how to accurately calculate the volume of our batteries without asking one of our engineers. I do know the volume you cited for our battery, by simply multiplying the length, width and height, is overstated, as those dimensions indicate the maximum space occupied by the battery and do not reflect the actual volume of the battery itself.

If you want to compare our Group 27 battery with anyone else's, an accurate comparison is with another Group 27 battery. The BCI came up with universal specifications to allow consumers to make an apples to apples comparison. If you want to dissect those numbers further, by comparing reserve capacity per pound, cranking amps per pound or even price per pound, you are welcome to do that.

I am glad to hear you learned from your mistake of purchasing a used battery with an unknown service history. I haven't bought a used vehicle since 1990, simply because I got tired of dealing with issues created and/or ignored by previous owners. I don't buy second-hand tires, used batteries or any other second-hand products for my vehicles that have a finite life cycle and can potentially leave me stranded if they fail. While I understand the risk and reward is different for everyone, it just isn't worth the hassle for me.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

You still aren't getting it :doh:

Again, I INTENTIONALLY compared a BIGGER optima to a SMALLER other brand to show how the SMALLER battery has MORE energy density than a BIGGER (optima) battery. Get it yet?

And the reason for that is optima's gimmick that they advertise as the ultra cool "six-pack" design.

But if you want me to compare an optima to another AGM battery of the same size, then the disparity is going to be even greater and optima will get blown away even more :dunno:

And I'm not arguing value, I'm arguing the inherently bad design that leads to shortcomings in the optima battery versus many comparable AGM batteries of other manufacturers. If I was arguing value then I would say, go get a quality traditional SLA battery. They can be very dependable, and are generally MUCH cheaper than their AGM counterparts.

And I'm very happy that you can afford to buy everything new, congratulations - "eCaring" must pay well. Had not everything told me that the optima I bought had been lightly, if at all used, then I wouldn't have bought it. I agree that tires, batteries, and brakes aren't things that should be skimped on. And btw, for the umpteen millionth time, how could a previously damaged battery work fine for a year and then crap out due to a damage that occurred over a year ago?

And a word of advice: You probably shouldn't disparage used vehicles on a forum for a vehicle that hasn't been made in almost 12 years :cheers:

 

[bigalpha]

This sounds like a Mac vs. PC debate.

I don't even know why you're still arguing with Jim or what you're even trying to get across.

 

[Shorty]

I INTENTIONALLY compared a BIGGER optima to a SMALLER other brand to show how the SMALLER battery has MORE energy density than a BIGGER (optima) battery. Get it yet?

I think we get it-- correct me if I'm missing something:

1.) You buy a surplus Optima to get a cheaper battery
2.) battery fails
3.) you get into a pissing contest with someone who didn't sell the battery to you
4.) you compare it to a battery costing roughly $80.00 more that the battery you wouldn't pay full price for to begin with

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

This sounds like a Mac vs. PC debate.

I don't even know why you're still arguing with Jim or what you're even trying to get across.

That optimas suck.




Lol ok not exactly, but I am trying to get across that they're inferior to other AGM manufacturers in terms of capacity and durability. The capacity is a fact, you can put it on paper and look at it all day long. Part of the durability argument can be inferred from the fact that optimas use thinner plates that are more closely spaced and therefore are inherently more likely for sulfation to cause an internal short thus rendering the battery a fifty pound paperweight.

I think we get it-- correct me if I'm missing something:

1.) You buy a surplus Optima to get a cheaper battery
2.) battery fails
3.) you get into a pissing contest with someone who didn't sell the battery to you
4.) you compare it to a battery costing roughly $80.00 more that the battery you wouldn't pay full price for to begin with

After reading the thread, if that's really what you got out of this, then your reading comprehension skills suuuuck.

Would you maybe care to explain how it fails from the way it was handled/used BEFORE I got it, an entire year AFTER I'd been using it with no problems?

 

[WNC95xj]

I read the first page of this and didn't feel like reading it all lol, so... I'm about to put a massive stereo in my 95 and am trying to decide should I A) suck it up and get a capacitor or B) if there is a good, reputable battery with high cca's that can handle the power without needing a capacitor and without my headlights dimming/my alternator dying in a week.
Suggestions? Optima or otherwise, I just want a strong ass battery.