Operation Fast and Furious

[RichP]

Head of ATF removed from office, AZ AG resigns........

The head of the ATF has been removed after months of speculation about his role in a botched gun-tracking operation that could have contributed to the death of a Border Patrol agent.

The Department of Justice (DOJ) announced on Tuesday that acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Kenneth Melson was being replaced. Melson is being transferred to the Office of Legal Policy, where he will be a senior adviser.

U.S. Attorney for the District of Minnesota Todd Jones will take over as acting ATF director, according to the Department of Justice.

In a simultaneous move, the U.S. Attorney for Arizona, Dennis Burke, announced his resignation on Tuesday. Burke oversaw the legal aspects of the Fast and Furious operation, providing advice to agents involved.

Maybe we need to add the moniker of teflon to holders name...:laugh3:

 

[tbburg]

Yet another official punished by NOT being fired.
Oh, but it's a demotion! He's no longer in charge of his own whole Bureau! Really!

Wonder how much of a pay cut the resignation/transfer will entail,..

 

[XJEEPER]

Fired and charged with criminal negligence resulting in the death of Federal Agents seems more fitting, but that would take someone with integrity to take a stand , of which there is none in Washington.

 

[Tom R.]

What's sad is military and government peons are always taught that the higher the position the more responsibility and accountability. The reality is usually the opposite; that as one moves up, the consequences are far less severe.

 

[XJEEPER]

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/02/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110902

The supervisor of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation in Phoenix specifically mentioned Fast and Furious in at least one email to a White House national security official, and two other White House colleagues were briefed on reports from the supervisor, according to White House emails and a senior administration official.

But the senior administration official said the emails, obtained Thursday by The Times, did not prove that anyone in the White House was aware of the covert "investigative tactics" of the operation.

:eyes:

 

[tbburg]

Plausible Deny-ability. Beginning to look like they didn't even get that part right,..

 

[tbburg]

Entertainment! Looks like Mexico wasn't the only country that received "gunwalker" guns:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has acknowledged an Indiana dealer’s cooperation in conducting straw purchases at the direction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Exclusive documents obtained by Gun Rights Examiner show the dealer cooperated with ATF by selling guns to straw purchasers, and that bureau management later asserted these guns were being traced to crimes.

From the confidential source providing the documents:

The dealer…was sent a "demand letter," based on the number of traces to him, which was retracted after his attorney pointed out they resulted from his cooperation with ATF. (Strangely, he got two voicemails from two different ATF people, both saying they were the head of the tracing operation).

Some of the straw men turned out to have felony convictions, the agents called the FBI background check system and fixed it so the transactions would be approved, something which may also have happened in Phoenix. (The attorney wasn't clear as to whether the guns were actually delivered to the gangs).

If the guns did not make it to criminal end users, why the demand for the reporting requirement was made remains unexplained: A demand letter, dated February 14, 2011 and signed by Charles J. Houser, Chief, National Tracing Center Division, informed the dealer he was required to provide acquisition and disposition information on firearms obtained from non-licensees, as well as to provide quarterly reports, based on ATF’s assessment that the dealer “had an unusually high number of traces of new crime guns with a relatively short ‘time-to-crime’…”

In a response dated March 10, 2011, attorney Brent R. Weil of Kightlinger and Gray, LLP, informed Houser:

Specifically, my client participated with and cooperated in certain law enforcement operations during 2009/2010 at the behest of ATFE enforcement officers from the Evansville, Indiana office (Agent Kevin Whittaker) and in the course of doing so, followed their instructions regarding the completion of certain transactions and the delivery of firearms to purchasers who did not clear the standard NICS [National Instant Check System] background check and were suspected of being involved in the purchase and transportation of handguns out of state despite passing NICS’s background checks.

n order to verify ATF claims, Weil requested they “be given a list of the ‘ten or more crime guns with a “time-to-crime: of three years or less’ so that we can satisfy ourselves that we are not being improperly included in this program because of our cooperation with and/or involvement with ATFE enforcement activities.”

'Guess that's one way to prove felons and gang members are getting guns from legitimate sources. Well, I guess the good news is at least Mexicans aren't being directly maimed or killed by THIS action of the federal govt. 'Sucks if you live in the mid-west though,..

Link:
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...icate-atf-fbi-allowed-indiana-crime-gun-sales
Commentary:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-explodes-into-the-heartland/

 

[tbburg]

FBI involvement/cover-up?

We already knew that Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was murdered in December with two AK-47s sold by the ATF through the F&F operation. That’s what broke the scandal open, of course,.. ..,What we didn’t know until recently is that there might have been more than two guns recovered at the scene. Enter CBS brandishing a snippet of audio between an ATF agent and the gun dealer who assisted the ATF in selling those AK-47s that points to three guns having been found. Why didn’t we know that? Because the legal filings in the case took care not to mention it,...

Sources say emails support their contention that the FBI concealed evidence to protect a confidential informant. Sources close to the Terry case say the FBI informant works inside a major Mexican cartel and provided the money to obtain the weapons used to kill Terry.

Unlike the two AK-style assault weapons found at the scene, the third weapon could more easily be linked to the informant. To prevent that from happening, sources say, the third gun “disappeared.”…

Link to HotAir.com

 

[tbburg]

This is interesting,
Headline:
Gunwalker Update: Rumor ATF to be Abolished

The actual story is that there is a white paper floating round the DOJ about the possibility of abolishing the ATF and moving all of it's regulatory functions to other agencies, as a ploy to say the problems caused by "gunwalker" and other agency screw-ups are now fixed.

And speaking of ATF agents losing their job, I have information that there is a white paper circulating within the Justice Department that implies abolishing ATF in order to clean house, get rid of all the agents, in an effort to kind of say “we’re taking this very seriously, we’re getting rid of ATF.” They would transfer all the explosives to FBI so that way the ATF no longer has jurisdiction over it. And then that way they can say “we’ve gotten rid of ATF, we’ve gotten rid of the low-level agents, and therefore, we’ve cleaned this up, no one else knew about it” – keeping the pressure off of DOJ once again.

Link to the patriot perspective

Not sure of the patriot perspectives' accuracy, but they're quoting(and linking to) a "Cam & company" podcast, and providing a transcript. "Cam & company" is an NRA backed talk radio show. They're partisan, but have a good reputation as to being accurate at least.

On the one hand, I would like to see a bunch of ATF agents on unemployment. It would be nice if the government moved the revenue aspects of ATF out of DHS, and back to the Department of Treasury where it belongs.
On the other hand, ATF has been constrained by the courts pretty much at every turn. Every time someone has the money to stand up to them, they loose. Transferring their regulatory functions to another agency would probably mean starting all over again across the board. Added to that, the likelihood of any higher-ups getting canned is about,.. oh,.. nil.

Probably overall not a great thing,...

 

[XJEEPER]

New information released today indicates that Fast and Furious wasn’t really a botched sting operation, but a taxpayer-backed firearms delivery service for ruthless Mexican drug cartels.

ATF agents actually bought weapons from a gun store in Arizona and knowingly sold those firearms to illegal straw buyers.​

“Agent John Dodson was ordered to buy six semi-automatic Draco pistols… an unusual sale, Dodson was sent to the store with a letter of approval from David Voth, an ATF group supervisor. Dodson then sold the weapons to known illegal buyers, while fellow agents watched from their cars nearby.”​

​

Agent Dodson apparently recognized the operation was a terrible idea. His ATF group supervisor, Agent Voth did not want to continue surveillance on the weapons, but according to Fox, Dodson:

“felt strongly that the weapons should not be abandoned and the stash house should remain under 24-hour surveillance… for six days in the desert heat… defying direct orders from Voth. A week later, a second vehicle showed up to transfer the weapons. Dodson called for an interdiction team to move in, make the arrest and seize the weapons. Voth refused and the guns disappeared with no surveillance.”​

Dodson eventually went public with his allegations about the Fast and Furious program after the murder of U.S. Border Agent Brian Terry.
​

 

[n1ywb]

New information released today indicates that Fast and Furious wasn’t really a botched sting operation, but a taxpayer-backed firearms delivery service for ruthless Mexican drug cartels.

If that's true, what's the motive?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

-- Robert J. Hanlon
​

 

[XJEEPER]

If that's true, what's the motive?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

-- Robert J. Hanlon

​

Enjoy your 2nd Amendment rights? It's not a conspiracy theory when the theory is proven correct........

CBS’ "Early Show" on March 26, 2011 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said: "We have to recognize and accept that the demand for drugs from the United States drives them north, and the guns that are used by the drug cartels against the police and the military, 90 percent of them come from America."

President Obama- April 16, 2011: "A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border."

Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) and Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) during a March 17 congressional hearing on the subject. Durbin said: "According to ATF [the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives], more than 90 percent of the guns seized after raids or shootings in Mexico have been traced right here to the United States of America." Feinstein added: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico used to shoot judges, police officers, mayors, kidnap innocent people and do terrible things come from the United States, and I think we must put a stop to that."

 

[n1ywb]

Fascinating theory, but I call shenanigans! (Get your brooms!)

With the current SCOTUS, the 2nd amendment has only been getting stronger lately, e.g. the DC handgun ban being overturned. After all the disasters for the dems lately I can't really see them doing something THIS retarded on purpose so close to the election, especially knowing it would be unlikely to pass muster in the SCOTUS; the last thing they need is another failure.

Of course that's exactly what F&F is; epic fail. Are the quotes you have provided are factually correct? If so it seems like the dem leaders were TRYING to get something done about it and the ATF royally bonerized it up as usual. I again invoke Hanlon's Razor. The gov wasn't intentionally malicious, just fricktarded, which shouldn't surprise anyone. And now they're trying to cover it up to save face.

A 2009 CNN poll found even lower levels of support for gun laws: in this poll, only 39% favored more restrictive laws. The poll indicates that the drop in support (compared to 2001 polls) came from self-identified Independents, with levels of opposition among Democrats and Republicans remaining consistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#United_States

Nobody wants stronger gun controls in the US. The dems know that. They are dying for independents this election. I don't think gun control is even on their radar right now.

 

[XJEEPER]

Fascinating theory, but I call shenanigans! (Get your brooms!)

With the current SCOTUS, the 2nd amendment has only been getting stronger lately, e.g. the DC handgun ban being overturned. After all the disasters for the dems lately I can't really see them doing something THIS retarded on purpose so close to the election, especially knowing it would be unlikely to pass muster in the SCOTUS; the last thing they need is another failure.

Of course that's exactly what F&F is; epic fail. Are the quotes you have provided are factually correct? If so it seems like the dem leaders were TRYING to get something done about it and the ATF royally bonerized it up as usual. I again invoke Hanlon's Razor. The gov wasn't intentionally malicious, just fricktarded, which shouldn't surprise anyone. And now they're trying to cover it up to save face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#United_States

Nobody wants stronger gun controls in the US. The dems know that. They are dying for independents this election. I don't think gun control is even on their radar right now.

Ya, thats why I posted direct quotes.... because they are made up. :twak:

You give them way too much credit for caring what the voter wants.

 

[n1ywb]

Ya, thats why I posted direct quotes.... because they are made up. :twak:

I didn't mean to suggest that you made up the quotes. What I meant to say was "Assuming Hillary etc aren't lying..."

 

[XJEEPER]

"Never discount a behavior of one as ignorance or stupidity, when the result of such behavior provides the means to their end."

----XJEEPER

 

[ocean_jet]

First of all... if those are the facts, those statements are pretty innocuous. Facts are facts, and if it is true that 90% of all guns recovered in Mexico originate in America, that is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Wouldn't you agree?


But anyway...

...actions speak louder than words.


With nearly three years in office, Obama has initiated NO legisltaion to increase gun control. None. Nor has he made any statements, official or otherwise, to suggest it is anywhere on his agenda.

Further, he has signed into law legistlation that allows people to carry fire arms in national parks (about time!!!), and legislation that allows fire arms in checked luggage on Amtrak.

And, he also signed legislation tightening up the privacy of gun purchase information.


Don't you think if Obama was so interested in taking our guns, he would have done it when he had a Democratic legislature to work with??? Now, even if he wanted to (he doesn't), there is no way he could with a Republican house.


Obama supports the 2nd Amendment. His words and his actions both say so.

 

[tbburg]

About the "90% mem: It's an interesting statistic. Here's approximately how it was arrived at:

When the Mexican authorities bother to trace guns confiscated, found, etc,.. they first look at country of origin. Once they determine a gun was manufactured in the US, they attempt to find out if it was manufactured for export to another country. If it was not, they turn the data over to US authorities(FBI, I think) Amazingly, a huge portion of the firearms that were manufactured for domestic US sale, that find their way to Mexico, were sold through US retail outlets, then somehow smuggled to Mexico illegally.(Firearms being illegal for civilian use/possession/transport into in Mexico, this is not too surprising) The figure is about 90%. That's where the "90%" stat comes from. My only question is , "What about the other 10%?"

Anyway, in real life here's how that works:

The Mexican authorities conduct a raid, where three select fire Uzi machine pistols, two select fire AK-47 battle rifles, and a pair of S&W semi-automatic pistols are recovered. Cursory investigation reveals the Uzis were made in Israel for export to Africa. The AK-47s were Czechoslovakian manufacture, for domestic use and were "lost". The S&W Pistols were made in the US, one marked for export, the other for domestic sale.
The Mexican authorities turn over the SR# of the single S&W pistol to US authorities, who determine the gun was sold in Tuscon: Wallah! 100% of the guns confiscated in the raid checked by US law enforcement were found to have been illegally imported into Mexico.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/testimony-on-assault-weapons-guts-obamas-90-percent-lie/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/

 

[n1ywb]

1. Give guns to Mexican cartels
2. ?
3. Ban all guns

Brilliant!

 

[tbburg]

Oops!.. turns out somebody sent a memo to the Attorney General. Looks like he just didn't read it.

New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html