Military Hummers Don't Make The Cut

[Root Moose]

Since we are on the subject of arms, let me say I hate the Beretta M9 pistol. I am carying it over here in the middle east (comming home soon) and i realy dont trust it. 9mm ball ammo. come on now. there have been several documented cases with law enforcement stateside that have shot suspects with 9mm hardball and the guy keeps on attatcking and continuing the action that lead the officer to shot. due to NATO regs and such, we have to carry ball ammo over here. the only guys that get to carry hollow points are aircrew so that the round is less likely to puncture the aircraft. something about too massive of an injury caused by hallow points. too bad we cant all just carry arround a bunch of claymores. i would be a lot happier with the old M1911 than i am with the M9

Sounds like a stupid, politically (PR), based decision. If you have a reason to fire a weapon then the target it hits should be stoppped.

I guess I'm too simplistic.

Here's a Q for people that know: Cougars are making a come back in this area (Eastern Ontario). I'm thinking about a small, rugged, "backpackable" side-arm for protection "just in case".

I know nothing about handguns. One of the guys that looks after our local dump has at least one revolver and one 9mm in the cab of his PU at any given time for dealing with bears but the gear looks pretty retro/cumbersome.

Recs?

 

[Zoro]

I heard that DC outfitted arround 150 TJ's back arround the start of the war specificly for use in Afganistan. I've seen strecthed YJ's that DC outfitted for the Kuwaiti military. Just think, they went from horses to Jeeps to Humvees to mules...

 

[5-90]

Cougars? Fairly soft-skinned target, and you'll want a lot of energy transfer (and a lot of energy TO transfer!) to make sure they're stopped - same philosophy you'll use with hunting lion...

For a cougar, I'd probably feel best with .357 Magnum, .44 Special/Magnum, a hot .45ACP, or one of the .45 "Magnum" variations if you can get it - say, .451 Detonics or .45 Winchester Magnum. Select a good hollowpoint (I really favour the Federal Hydra-Shok) or a frangible round (the Glaser Safety Slug will likely also be useful) to effect maximum energy transfer.

A 12-gage with a low-spread heavy shot (#2 buck or larger, with a "buffer" to help keep spread down) would also serve, if you are comfortable backpacking a shotgun (not everyone is, but I don't mind.)

A 9mm for a bear would work about as well as pepper spray on a rock - I'd not want to tangle with a bear with anything less than a .44 Magnum! They can get quite cranky...

If you go with the revolver, you won't need to get silly with barrel length - anywhere from 4-6" should serve. Long barrels are for long-range hunting - which it sounds like you won't be doing.

Whatever you get - PRACTISE! Know your sidearm as well as you know your wife, and learn to do anything that might need doing underwater, in the dark, with your eyes shut, and behind your back (using the wrong hand.) You may never need to be able to do it that way in real life, but the first time you need to you'll wish you could. There are some things you just can't be TOO good at...

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[woody]

As for the Sig Sauer sidearm... I read (7-10?) years ago that the Army adopted the Sig P-229 as a primary weapon for civ-dress agents (like CID) and General Officers...

That the Navy Seals (or other special ops folks) may be toting them :dunno: possibly... I can't see why they wouldn't all pack a common calibre & make of sidearm (like the H&K Mk23) to facilitate crossload of ammo/mags...

 

[Weasel]

.357Sig is a nice little round that packs a good punch. Similar to the 10mm.

I would assume the seals, ect would use which ever they felt would work best for the job. Just like tools to work on the Jeep, 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" wrench, rachet, ect.

 

[5-90]

No argument here - as I've often told people when I was training them - "Carry what you're comfortable with. Here's my opinon, but you're the one that has to shoot it."

Still, guys like SEALs are usually in a real hurry to put down a bad guy and make sure he STAYS down. The 9mm has a piss-poor record of doing just that - you're better off throwing soup cans.

The decision to switch to 9mm has to do with simplifying the NATO logistics train (which makes sense,) and since we were the only people not using the 9mm (and rightly so, y'ask me,) we were "brought to heel."

Not really a good thing to me - if European soldiers can't handle a .45 or a .40, it's time for remedial training. The raison d'etre of a sidearm is to solve emergencies F-A-S-T - meaning put the guy down and put him down NOW! The 9mm really sucks at doing that - it has trouble guaranteeing one-shot stops on anything larger than a housecat. Sure, you can carry twice as many rounds in the mag - and you'll need them. If I've got to put a guy down, I don't want to waste ammo doing it by having to shoot him eight times.

As far as the whole "ball" ammo thing, frangible ammo was essentially outlawed under both the Hague Accord and the Geneva Convention. Why we care escapes me, and now for two reasons:
1) The United States never signed either agreement.
2) We're fighting people who won't "play by the rules" - and haven't since, say, 1952 or so (late Korean Conflict/early French Indochina War.)

I remember my CO not caring - as long as he'd look into the mag and see at least one "ball" round (the ones underneath where all either Hydra-Shok or Silvertips - but he didn't look that closely. Nice working for a former enlisted man...)

Stewie - good luck over there, man. I was in Iraq, Saudi, and Kuwait in 1991, and I'd been on the ground in Afghanistan a few times in the early 1990's, so I feel for ya. I agree - the M16 would be nicely complemented by the old AR-10 over there - load it with .22-08 for real long-range work and make both uppers available, and you've got a SERIOUSLY bad weapons platform! At least, offer the AR-10 with full-size .308 and DS .224-.308, and you're getting close... The terminal energy of the SS109 62-gr loaded into a full-house .308 with a discarding sabot is just nuts...

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[Root Moose]

A 9mm for a bear would work about as well as pepper spray on a rock - I'd not want to tangle with a bear with anything less than a .44 Magnum! They can get quite cranky...

If you go with the revolver, you won't need to get silly with barrel length - anywhere from 4-6" should serve. Long barrels are for long-range hunting - which it sounds like you won't be doing.

Whatever you get - PRACTISE! Know your sidearm as well as you know your wife, and learn to do anything that might need doing underwater, in the dark, with your eyes shut, and behind your back (using the wrong hand.) You may never need to be able to do it that way in real life, but the first time you need to you'll wish you could. There are some things you just can't be TOO good at...

Thanks for the tips. Can you rec a couple of specific guns to get me googling? I'm not a fan of revolvers.

Not too worried about bears. We only have black bears here and they spook easy enough.

In Canada hand guns are considered "restricted" weapons and as part of the reqs to carry you need to do the whole multiple testing (paper) and belong to a shooting club, etc. Practising is not a worry.

One of these days I should get around to registering my long guns I suppose. Part of the problem is that my wife is a "townie" and as such she is not comfortable around guns so I don't keep them at our premises. My background is/was rural, Dad was in the miitary, I used to shoot in the Air Cadets, etc. ,etc. so I'm comfortable but not looking forward to the fight when I bring stuff home.

 

[Weasel]

Well there are quite a few guns that would work in either .40 or .45 cal. My personal prefrences are Sigs or Hk's. 229's are compacts, 226 are fullsize, 2022 are polymer guns, all of hk's are poly. find one that fits your hand.

 

[5-90]

I'm cranky - I like chunks of metal - and I just can't bring myself (easily...) to trust my life to an auto designed by anyone other than John Browning...

The M1911 can be had easily and from pretty much anywhere, it shoots the venerable (and proven!) .45ACP, and can be had also in .451 Det and .45 WM, with a little digging. There is also a variation in .357 (the Coonan Cadet) which isn't too bad.

There are quite a few .40 variants, but you'll have to do some digging to get decent ammo. Everyone's fond of the truncated cone solid, and you'll want something a little more effective (like I said, Hydra-Shok or Silvertip.)

Even if you're not a fan of revolvers, I'd suggest you see if someone will let you pop off a few rounds with their .357 or .44 - you may be surprised.

I'm fortunate - my wife is an x-cop, and therefore has no trouble with firearms at all. Neither do I.

The most useful advice I can give you at first is to see if you can try a few different sidearms out - by borrowing them at the range. It's like any other tool - you need to handle it comfortably to get to be any good with it. It's also important that you can handle your sidearm with only one paw (and maybe the wrong one!) in the event you might have to.

I'm also not a huge fan of revolvers, but they do offer the advantage of a stronger chamber - as well as being more accurate at long ranges (properly built, of course.) They're just another tool - and I'm sure you own more than one wrench, don't you?

If I'm going to get a revolver, my first choice is a pre-1975 N-frame S&W (yeah - good luck!) The later Smiths still aren't bad, and the Rugers are catching up. If you're overly worried about handling the .44 Magnum (no real reason to, but some people are...) you might want to think about .45 Colt - which is a little milder.

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[Root Moose]

Even if you're not a fan of revolvers, I'd suggest you see if someone will let you pop off a few rounds with their .357 or .44 - you may be surprised.

I'm fortunate - my wife is an x-cop, and therefore has no trouble with firearms at all. Neither do I.

The most useful advice I can give you at first is to see if you can try a few different sidearms out - by borrowing them at the range. It's like any other tool - you need to handle it comfortably to get to be any good with it. It's also important that you can handle your sidearm with only one paw (and maybe the wrong one!) in the event you might have to.

I'm also not a huge fan of revolvers, but they do offer the advantage of a stronger chamber - as well as being more accurate at long ranges (properly built, of course.) They're just another tool - and I'm sure you own more than one wrench, don't you?

If I'm going to get a revolver, my first choice is a pre-1975 N-frame S&W (yeah - good luck!) The later Smiths still aren't bad, and the Rugers are catching up. If you're overly worried about handling the .44 Magnum (no real reason to, but some people are...) you might want to think about .45 Colt - which is a little milder.

I'm cranky too, but only because Timmy Ho's screwed up my coffee at the drive through this AM.

Thanks for the advice guys. I like the idea of polymer for some reason. Knowing nothing about this style of gun, is there a fatigue cycle attached to that kind of weapon at all, do you have to replace the frame every X number of shots or something along those lines? Non issue for me given how little it will be fired I expect, just a point of curiosity.

One of the acquaintances that I "coffee break" with is fairly involved with his local gun club. He's into hand guns (rarity in Canada) and he is very active. I should tag with him one Saturday. He's currently into black powder pistols but also has a .357, 9mm, etc., etc.

 

[Weasel]

infinte fatique life....Sigs have gone 250,000 rounds with no problems(factory tests).

 

[5-90]

Nothing intrinsically wrong with polymer - but I'm a traditionalist. Unless you're cranking off some Gawd-awful number of round each year/day/month/week, the theoretical lifetime of the frame is longer than yours (and I have to admit, the Glocks we trialled held up much better than the aluminum-framed Beretta...)

I'm just a big fan of steel - if you run out of ammo, you can still get a good whack in upside someone's head if you need to.

I gave up on other people making coffee for me - except to go to Starbuck's, order "plain black coffee," and complain when I can see the bottom of the cup. Everyone knows that coffee you can see through is rotten coffee...

Don't bother with the 9mm - it's a paperweight. The .357 should be useful against cougar and other cats (but get lots of practise - and put stress on yourself when you do. After the first fifty round that day, do a half-hour of windsprints and shoot some more...) but don't bother with an auto unless it's at least a .40 - and preferably a .45. The .50AE is pretty much overkill, and I can't really think of any jobs that I can do with it that I can't do with the .45 cheaper, easier, and quicker.

5-90

 

[Beej]

Why can't we all just get along? :dunno:

 

[Root Moose]

Why can't we all just get along? :dunno:

:wierd:

Stray vector from outer space?

Time to put down the wacky backy, Beej.

 

[Beej]

:wierd:

Stray vector from outer space?

Time to put down the wacky backy, Beej.

As a dope smokin' smelly liberal westcoast hippy, I just cain't handle all this talk about the best way of puttin' down a mother's child...
:rattle:

 

[Root Moose]

Are you a member of the "Anti Cougar Killing Coalition" or something?

 

[Grifter144]

SEAL team members with sig 9's?????? not what i recall seeing and playing with a year ago, but whatever.....
Maier

 

[Lou]

Perhaps a Cougar of a different sort....

 

[Lou]

Why can't we all just get a long? :dunno:

A long ... what?

 

[5-90]

A long little doggie, of course. I guess we should all go get some dachshunds...

Beej - I'm not a huge fan of putting someone down, either - but I'm hard enough to realise there are times it must be done. Therefore, I will find the most efficient and most surgical means of doing so - larger bullets mean fewer stray rounds (lowering risk of collateral damage,) and effective energy transfer means less to no overpenetration (lowering risk of collateral damage.) I've also noticed that the "magzine jockeys" in blue have a habit of emptying mags at single targets - which is stupid (what if you need the rest of those rounds?) and stupid (are you really keeping track of where all that lead is going?)

For futher information, I refer you to the case of Amadou Diallo - I'm sorry, but 41 rounds for 19 hits at "contact" range is just plain wrong - all of them should go back for remedial training. With three guys, anything inside of seven yards should have a MAXIMUM of nine rounds in it - assuming they all fire at once, and that the target is armoured (six without.)

The more I see of cops with firearms, the more I think they should get billys instead. "Stop! Or I'll say stop again!"

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