MetalCloak 6PAK Shocks?

[outfitterguy]

so how do you valve these? Are shims available? Do they make bypasses? I'll stick to my triple bypasses. thanks though. These look weak. Yeah they might have been cool on the jk but their slow anyways. put these on an actual prerunner that runs a 300-500 mile race and they will fail.

wow... #1 change the valve stack #2 yes #3 why would you even ask that, no these are long travel compact bodied shock absorbers and are not intended to be race shocks.

Good luck with your racing 'tripple bypass guy'.

 

[rockclimber]

:doh:

 

[tbburg]

From a race perspective, two things:
Cutting holes and mounting hoops for shocks isn't a costly modification. Finding room for long travel shocks isn't a problem, nor a cost concern.
As far as racing XJs go, most of the classes that this would be of use in have travel- and/or body modification rules in place making them unnecessary.

Once you're in that price range, bypass shocks would offer more bang for the buck, so probably not a racing solution.

For a street XJ:
The front axle can only droop about 10.5" from the bump stop before the track bar binds. Getting a 10" travel shock under the wheel wells isn't an insurmountable challenge. Any more travel than that, and the modifications you're making put you back into the "mounting hoops isn't a big deal" area.
These might come in handy in the rear. Out back, there is limited space under the floor pan. A lot of people don't want open holes through the floor in their daily driver. This might be a decent solution. Expensive, but a workable solution non-the-less.

As for valving, I'd say it would be valved the same way a dual shock system would be tuned. Multiple different valving in the same body would probably be useless, as it would only make one piston work harder then the one next to it. You'd want to keep the valving even on the "same side" pistons so they would generate similar heat and pressure/force profiles.
Separate valving on the "up-side" and "down-side" pairs might be viable, giving a looser/softer valving through the center part of travel, then stiffening as the "soft" pair bottomed out and the "hard" pair took over. The shock body wouldn't stay centered during movement, and you'd get accelerated wear on the "soft" pair of pistons,... Also, once you bottomed out the soft pair and got into the "hard" valving range, when the suspension stopped moving and reversed, you'd be back into the "soft" valving. Probably wouldn't work out very well. My guess is the best performance would be with all 4 pistons having the same valve shim stack.

 

[XJRunner]

still think everything about them looks weak. Might be cool for rock crawlers but I highly doubt they'll ever catch on in the desert world. maybe to you folks who argue over whos mono tubes are the best when in reality their all crap for anything other then going slow or the mall.

 

[ktm racer 419]

MY SHOCKS CAN BEAT UP YOUR SHOCKS!

 

[XJRunner]

I over paid for mine unfortunately ): but the are valved just the way I want them too be

 

[outfitterguy]

For a street XJ:
These might come in handy in the rear. Out back, there is limited space under the floor pan. A lot of people don't want open holes through the floor in their daily driver. This might be a decent solution. Expensive, but a workable solution non-the-less.

My guess is the best performance would be with all 4 pistons having the same valve shim stack.

X2

 

[Darky]

wow... #1 change the valve stack #2 yes #3 why would you even ask that, no these are long travel compact bodied shock absorbers and are not intended to be race shocks.

Good luck with your racing 'tripple bypass guy'.

Somehow, I just have a weird feeling this guy works for the company or something. He seems to know too much about them and gets rather defensive any time someone says anything negative about them.

 

[rockclimber]

still think everything about them looks weak. Might be cool for rock crawlers but I highly doubt they'll ever catch on in the desert world. maybe to you folks who argue over whos mono tubes are the best when in reality their all crap for anything other then going slow or the mall.

really, you think that rock crawlers somehow use weaker parts than desert guys....thats funny. I have seen more cobbled together POS XJ's with 9" of front lift survive hours and hours of dune time that would get annihilated in the rocks.

and before you even try, you can't compare desert racing with average joe rockcrawling. but if you want to compare desert racing with rock racing, you are way out of your mind. but the average joe desert jeep would not survive the rocks.

MY SHOCKS CAN BEAT UP YOUR SHOCKS!

oh yea... I got a pile of blown out OEM/PRocrap shocks that would crush your shocks under their weight..:cheers:

 

[tbburg]

I think the only reason they look weak is because of the unconventional layout. These things have a relatively huge body, making the shafts and rod ends look small.

I didn't see size specs anywhere, but looking at the photos provided, and comparing to the 1/2" rod end, it looks like the shafts are also half inch, pistons are probably between 1.25 and 1.5".
My only concern would be the bridge connecting the shock shafts. As there will be a slight difference in valving between the two connected pistons due to manufacturing tolerances, there will be a slight asymmetrical load on the bridge. If it's some kind of steel, this probably won't be a problem. If it's any kind of aluminum alloy, it might be an issue over time.

 

[XJRunner]

really, you think that rock crawlers somehow use weaker parts than desert guys....thats funny. I have seen more cobbled together POS XJ's with 9" of front lift survive hours and hours of dune time that would get annihilated in the rocks.

and before you even try, you can't compare desert racing with average joe rockcrawling. but if you want to compare desert racing with rock racing, you are way out of your mind. but the average joe desert jeep would not survive the rocks.



oh yea... I got a pile of blown out OEM/PRocrap shocks that would crush your shocks under their weight..:cheers:

alright guy, lets see joe rockc rawler xj do 55-65 down evan hughes at plaster and holw together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU_fieZsYx8
or do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dU9M055RlU
it wont hold together.

 

[Darky]

really, you think that rock crawlers somehow use weaker parts than desert guys....thats funny. I have seen more cobbled together POS XJ's with 9" of front lift survive hours and hours of dune time that would get annihilated in the rocks.

and before you even try, you can't compare desert racing with average joe rockcrawling. but if you want to compare desert racing with rock racing, you are way out of your mind. but the average joe desert jeep would not survive the rocks.



oh yea... I got a pile of blown out OEM/PRocrap shocks that would crush your shocks under their weight..:cheers:

The beef comes in different areas. A well built rock crawler will, structurally, be as strong as any similarly built prerunner. The differences will come in underneath. The desert guy will be running different axles with more money spent on the shocks. The crawler will be running big beefy axles and shocks won't really matter. Low speed doesn't care about shocks so long as they function.

A competition rock rig is running much the same quality gear as a competition desert Jeep. Your comparison blows.

XJRunner, let's see joe prerunner do the same. Competition rigs are not Joe Schmoe rigs.

 

[rockclimber]

alright guy, lets see joe rockc rawler xj do 55-65 down evan hughes at plaster and holw together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU_fieZsYx8
or do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dU9M055RlU
it wont hold together.

do you have reading problems?

those are race vehicles... I said you cannot compare race vehicles to non-race vehicles.

any race ready rock crawler could handle that...

however I'd love to see those rigs go play in the rocks, the carnage would be hilarious...:firedevil

FYI I have been down evan hughes many times, not quite that fast, but I have hit sections of it at 40 with no issue. and my jeep isnt anything to write home about, short arms, ~4" lift, 33"s.

now, dick measuring contest aside.. I don't think these shocks will ever be big in the XJ crowd, for the price, and the necessary mods to make them worth it, you can have a coil-overed, fully linked rig capable of running almost any trail.
they were designed for the JK crowd, their suspension geometry is different than ours.

yes, they would make getting longer travel shocks in the rear easier, but you are never gonna get a leaf spring to have that much droop, and to get the uptravel necessary to run a shock like that you are gonna do a lot of cutting. once again you are back to major rig modifications to be useful in which case you could do so much more with c/o's and links.

 

[Darky]

All those Jeepspeed rigs would need is maybe skid plating. Build a rig good at high speed, armor plate it, and now it's good all around.

 

[rockclimber]

The beef comes in different areas. A well built rock crawler will, structurally, be as strong as any similarly built prerunner. The differences will come in underneath. The desert guy will be running different axles with more money spent on the shocks. The crawler will be running big beefy axles and shocks won't really matter. Low speed doesn't care about shocks so long as they function.

not really true. structurally the rock rig will outclass the pre-runner, pre-runners don't run a lot of underarmor because it isnt necessary, they don't generally run rocker protection, they dont need it.
they do however run a lot of fiberglass and plastic that wont hold up to abuse in the rocks.
shocks matter a hell of a lot in the rocks, especially if you want to move faster than 1 foot per hour, most of the guys I know that play hard in the rocks spend a ton of time tuning the shocks in their rigs.
now to be fair, shocks do matter slightly more to a go fast rig, but not that much more.

A competition rock rig is running much the same quality gear as a competition desert Jeep. Your comparison blows.

BS. some pre-runners may be running a similar quality rear-end to a comp crawler.. but you don't see a lot of 14bt (axle of choice in the rocks these days) in the desert, too heavy, but way more beef than most comp desert rigs. my comparison is fine. I would put any race-ready rock crawler up over a race ready pre-runner in a head to head any day. 10 miles of desert, 10 miles of rocks. crawler wins every time.

XJRunner, let's see joe prerunner do the same. Competition rigs are not Joe Schmoe rigs.

didnt I already say that:rtm:

:cheers:

All those Jeepspeed rigs would need is maybe skid plating. Build a rig good at high speed, armor plate it, and now it's good all around.

don't forget a driving axle up front, and a transfercase...add all that onto a jeepspeed rig and what do you have? thats right an OK crawler and a shitty jeepspeed rig.

 

[Darky]

not really true. structurally the rock rig will outclass the pre-runner, pre-runners don't run a lot of underarmor because it isnt necessary, they don't generally run rocker protection, they dont need it.
they do however run a lot of fiberglass and plastic that wont hold up to abuse in the rocks.
shocks matter a hell of a lot in the rocks, especially if you want to move faster than 1 foot per hour, most of the guys I know that play hard in the rocks spend a ton of time tuning the shocks in their rigs.
now to be fair, shocks do matter slightly more to a go fast rig, but not that much more.

BS. some pre-runners may be running a similar quality rear-end to a comp crawler.. but you don't see a lot of 14bt (axle of choice in the rocks these days) in the desert, too heavy, but way more beef than most comp desert rigs. my comparison is fine. I would put any race-ready rock crawler up over a race ready pre-runner in a head to head any day. 10 miles of desert, 10 miles of rocks. crawler wins every time.

Oh really, the 14 bolt is the axle of choice amongst XJ crawlers? I bet if you looked at the comp rigs we have running around here, a D60 is the axle of choice. Prerunners might run 9s more often, but a 9 can be built to ridiculous levels. I'm pretty sure there are 40 spline shafts out there for them. Structurally, they'd be pretty equal. Notice how I said armor might need to be added, but some race courses have rocks in the course, and I'd bet that some runners do add some skid plating to avoid damage in a race.

Will cracking fiberglass cause the rig not to function anymore? No. Body damage is body damage.

Yes, shocks are important all around, but my Jeep crawled pretty good on stock shocks, RE monotubes, blown RE monotubes, and now Bilstein 7100 resis. The only area to see noticeable changes was desert performance. At low speeds, the stiff valving that works so well in the desert has yet to hinder my flex while having the RE shocks on sucked in the desert but did the same as the 7100s in the rocks.

don't forget a driving axle up front, and a transfercase...add all that onto a jeepspeed rig and what do you have? thats right an OK crawler and a shitty jeepspeed rig.

Go hang out in the Jeepspeed section of . Many run 4wd and just swap front axles for different courses. Some courses have soft silty sand or climbs or whatever that would make 4wd a benefit. On those courses, they swap in the driven axle. Some don't need 4wd, so those would run the beam axle.

As far as your assessment of the performance, talk to some of the guys who have actual experience racing on both sides of the house. Goatman has raced a fair amount and has even been in on the King of the Hammers races. If you tune your rig to be fast, you won't be hindering your performance in the rocks. What mods would a Jeepspeeder have that would be detrimental to the rocks, keeping in mind that not all are 2wd? Build a rig with a full set of chassis stiffeners and skids, a beefy cage, 35 spline Ford 9" with deep gears and a spool, a 44 front, 33-35" tires, 12-14" travel triple bypass resi shocks up front, 16" travel versions through the floor out back, Deaver coils and leafs, and long arms or short arms with DBs, and tell me what about that Jeep would hinder it's performance in the rocks? It would keep up with any XJ of a similar size in the rocks.

 

[rockclimber]

Oh really, the 14 bolt is the axle of choice amongst XJ crawlers? I bet if you looked at the comp rigs we have running around here, a D60 is the axle of choice.

we're not talking about just XJ's here...

Prerunners might run 9s more often, but a 9 can be built to ridiculous levels. I'm pretty sure there are 40 spline shafts out there for them. Structurally, they'd be pretty equal.

yes you can run 40spl shafts in a 9, but you still have a 9" ring gear... 14bolt is a 10.25" ring gear, the strenght is not equal.

Notice how I said armor might need to be added, but some race courses have rocks in the course, and I'd bet that some runners do add some skid plating to avoid damage in a race.

right, but its not anything compared to what a rock racer will have.

Will cracking fiberglass cause the rig not to function anymore? No. Body damage is body damage.

no, but it sure won't help.

Yes, shocks are important all around, but my Jeep crawled pretty good on stock shocks, RE monotubes, blown RE monotubes, and now Bilstein 7100 resis. The only area to see noticeable changes was desert performance. At low speeds, the stiff valving that works so well in the desert has yet to hinder my flex while having the RE shocks on sucked in the desert but did the same as the 7100s in the rocks.

I did say that shocks matter more to the go-fast crowd.

Go hang out in the Jeepspeed section of . Many run 4wd and just swap front axles for different courses. Some courses have soft silty sand or climbs or whatever that would make 4wd a benefit. On those courses, they swap in the driven axle. Some don't need 4wd, so those would run the beam axle.

As far as your assessment of the performance, talk to some of the guys who have actual experience racing on both sides of the house. Goatman has raced a fair amount and has even been in on the King of the Hammers races. If you tune your rig to be fast, you won't be hindering your performance in the rocks. BS if you tune to go fast you sacrifice a lot in the rocks, shock valving is much different for guys in the rocks than it is in the desert, spring rates are different, suspension geometry, arm length. they are all different.

What mods would a Jeepspeeder have that would be detrimental to the rocks, keeping in mind that not all are 2wd? Build a rig with a full set of chassis stiffeners and skids, a beefy cage, 35 spline Ford 9" with deep gears and a spool, a 44 front, 33-35" tires, 12-14" travel triple bypass resi shocks up front, 16" travel versions through the floor out back, Deaver coils and leafs, and long arms or short arms with DBs, and tell me what about that Jeep would hinder it's performance in the rocks? for starters, DB's and LA's are an issue in the rocks, they tend to get caught on shit It would keep up with any XJ of a similar size in the rocks.

what part of do not COMPARE RACE VEHICLES TO NON-RACE VEHICLES DO YOU NOT GET?

just because they are "similar size" does not make them comparable. nobody is racing in the rocks with a rig the size of a jeepspeed pre-runner.

when I talk about a rock racer, I am talking about 37"+, tons, full cage, hi-clearance, lowCog, full/assist hydro, not a mildly built trail XJ on 33"s or 35"s.

if you want to compare a weekend desert guy's XJ and a weelend Crawler's XJ thats fine, but you will find that if the crawler builds his rig to actually survive the rocks and not get totally trashed he will be able to keep up with the weekend desert guy in the open desert, however the weekend desert guy will have some serious issues in the rocks.

 

[Darky]

Where was I comparing race to non-race? And as far as I'm concerned, when we're talking about Jeepspeeds and wheelers on 's forum, we are talking XJs. What else would we be discussing. If you want to compare a fully built top of the line rock racer, you can't compare that against a Jeepspeed rig. TOTALLY different. You wanna compare big rock rigs with 37s and 1 tons, everything else, you gotta look beyond XJs. A full on desert racer as you would see in Baja would kill a rock rig in the desert, but have no chance in the rocks. I mean, what kind of budget are we talking here?

Most teams prerunners are faster than their race rigs because the prerunner isn't bound by the rules of the class. XJ rock racers and indeed similar in size to Jeepspeed rigs. As far as your comment on long arms or DBs getting caught up in the rocks, go wheel. Talk to people who wheel those setups. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually saw a major detriment to his long arm setup or DBs in the rocks. My 3 link (which is meant for crawlers, not go fast, btw) sits below the frame rail for the lower arms, but while it has hit a few times, I've never been hung up on it. Are you saying that rock racers run short arms mounted in the stock locations? Please say you are, I need a good laugh...:rofl:

So, if shock valving, spring rate, geometry, etc are so different, how is it that KOH rigs can be so fast across the desert yet still be faster than any of us in the rocks too? At the speeds encountered in the rocks, shock valving plays a rather minor role. Like I said, going from RE shocks which are geared towards rocks and the trail to 7100s valved towards the desert, I didn't lose an inch of flex, and it works equally well on all the trails I run. I like to play in the canyons out here, go out to JV at least a few times a year, etc. The only changes I've seen in performance going from rock oriented suspension to desert oriented suspension has been being able to go faster through the whoops.

If we go with weekend wheelers, guys who play primarily in the rocks and then decide they want to be able to get to the trail faster find that they need to swap the springs and shocks out for more desert oriented equipment. Like I've said repeatedly, swapping to desert springs and shocks has made my Jeep faster without sacrificing rock performance at all.

In closing, it's kind of pointless and silly to argue about who's better. A pure rock Jeep will not compete with a pure desert Jeep and vice versa. However, the suspension of a desert Jeep will work just fine in the rocks, whereas the armor cladding and (possibly) heavier axles would slow a rock rig down but aid it's durability.


And without, I will bow out of this pointless discussion

 

[ktm racer 419]

i'm just gonna strap a bunch of these together

if i want them stiffer, i will just add more. if i want them softer, i will take some out.

its the ultimate solution in go-fast suspension adjustability

 

[Darky]

i'm just gonna strap a bunch of these together

if i want them stiffer, i will just add more. if i want them softer, i will take some out.

its the ultimate solution in go-fast suspension adjustability

Get the ones from a Range Rover, I hear they're the best in the desert...