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low idle renix

well i think it has beaten me. i have pretty much ran out of time. too many free days/weeks wasted on this thing. so i will give it the rest of today, and if i can not come up with something it is either going up for sale, or stuck in the corner of the yard and i will think about coming back to it some other time. maybe. thanks for your help guys. i really do appreciate it, but i can no longer ignore my family for the sake of fixing this thing. plus i feel if i can not fix it myself, i have no business owning it.
thanks again.
 
that is right where mine was cruiser54. so thanks for posting that and reassuring my finding.
i actually just tried putting a timing light on it and hooked up a remote start switch. then as it starts i get an instant read on timing. as the engine starts lowering its idle more and more, i get no change in timing. so it is definitely a fuel management issue.
i have the spare ECU in it right now with same results.

should the voltage to the IAT lower with key on? key off nothing, but key on unplugged i get 5V at the sensor wire. then connect the sensor and back probe with key on i only get 2.3V.
 
ok, i am not getting a ground from the knock sensor pin at the ECU. (D8). and i dont get a ground at the sensor connector. shouldnt i have a good ground in the yellow/black stripe wire?
 
thats what i thought too. but then found that if you connect the ECU it will get a ground. must get a ground through the system. i did however try to give it it's own ground wire and it didnt help my problem. damg, i was almost happy for a second.

well it got dark and my day is done. looks like the jeep beat me, i still can not believe it. it is either going up for sale, or stashed in the corner of the property for a while. i just can not trust it with the kids in the car. back to driving the one ton dually. hows that for a daily driver/ lol. i am not sure if it will pass smog running like this, so i doubt i can get much for it. thanks for all your help guys, we gave it a good shot.
 
With the engine at #1 TDC, the trailing edge of the rotor should be .020" PAST the #1 terminal in the cap.
They may have fixed that by the 89 model year. A TSB says that is the ideal spot. I've never had an 87 or 88 that actually ended up there. The ECU will adjust the timing over a pretty broad range almost to the point of the rotor being one plug off at initial setup.

Lets rehash, sometimes a person gets tunnel vision. Losses the thread, with all the spot checks on sensors and stuff and gets confused.

The main goal is to narrow the problem down to a sub system.

Open loop, closed loop. People like to think it is one way or the other, but the system kicks in, in stages. Open loop, the system runs pretty much on default settings, from the sound of things you seem to be doing pretty good at the default settings, then the system screws up.

One of the first things that kicks in is the O2 sensor, or so it seems to me. The heater heats up the O2 sensor it starts inputing. O2 sensor controls the IAC at idle. So it seems probable either the O2 info is wrong or the IAC is acting up. O2 sensor is bad, the heater is bad, the wiring is bad.

IAC, low voltage (weak battery) and they stick, full of dirt and they stick, they can even stick because of semi solid junk behind the IAC piston. They work by adjusting a little too lean and a little too rich, then ECU picks the just right spot. Sounds like yours may be closing in stages and choking the motor. and/or you have vacuum leak on one end of the intake or the other, the O2 sensor is closing the IAC trying to adjust and leaning out a few cylinders until the motor stalls.

Unplug the EGR vacuum line, squirt a little penetrating oil on the shaft, reach in and twist the shaft a little with a pair of needle nose pliers. leave the vacuum plugged off.

Unplug the IAC when your idle is good. Or you can even unplug the IAC and then adjust your idle at the throttle plate stop. Run it for awhile (15-20 minutes) then check your plugs. The soot covered plugs are likely air starved, the mostly clean or white-white plugs are likely lean. Bone white, light grey or even brown tinged are close.

I've never tried it, but what the heck, unplug your O2 sensor. It is likely to default to open loop.

These steps may help you narrow it down to a specific sub system. If it operates in open loop and not in closed loop or one step in the closed loop transition, you can then start checking one sensor at a time, first the sensor, then the wiring for that sensor.

Better than half the problems I've found are in a connector, a splice or a burnt or chaffed wire someplace. IMO many sensors get changed that aren't needed. A couple of TPS, a couple of CPS and a few O2 sensors are pretty much all I've ever changed in 25 years of Renix. I have a junk yard set for testing, but most times it ends up being the wiring, a splice or a connector.

You said you modified your CPS to sit closer, may or may not be beneficial. All I have ever done to mine is make sure I use the stock bolts and shorten the CPS to ECU wires and bypass every connector possible. Mine are soldered directly to the ECU. For testing I cut the wires and use a wire clamp for testing, then re-solder.

Sometimes it helps to let it sit for a day or two. I've made myself nuts trying to figure mine out before. Two days break and I'd find the problem in the first few minutes.

The difference between a hunter and a gatherer (male and female) a guy gets on a trail, gets tunnel vision and sticks with it. A gatherer runs from clump to clump, pretty much randomly and gathers whatever is edible from that clump. Men and women are generally wired differently, different priorities.

I wish I were there to help, hard to troubleshot with some of your senses not being used, instincts are hard to convey over the internut, I amaze myself on occasion. I find my instincts to be as valuable as my reason, sometimes more so. Sometimes the little things will tip you off, hard to convey over the internut without writing a book.

You sound smarter than me and competent in your knowledge, if I can do it you can do it. I've still got my Renix and have been married, to the same woman, for 35 years, it is possible.:roflmao:
 
8Mud i appreciate all your encouragement and the knowledge you have shared. but i believe i am beaten. i know i sound like a little kid, but i truly can not think of any other test i can do.
so for now it is going to the corner. i have stayed home to work on this thing instead of going with my kids to disneyland, sea world, animal parks, ect. i no longer want to miss those smiles.
at this point i will hunt down someone with a drb2 tester and learn to use it. i think that way it will point me in the right direction to attack. i do not want to try and hunt down each sensor and its wiring one by one any longer. trust me i have tried each one so many times. sure i have found parts that needed repair/replacing and did so. even if they were marginal, but after all the investment and still no closer to being able to fix it, i am cutting my losses. spend time with the kids. and maybe try again some other time. trust me this is hard to do as i have NEVER had a vehicle beat me. i love a challenge, and think of myself as a somewhat smart man with a passion for this stuff.

thanks again man, i really really do appreciate your help.
 
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My 90 XJ had a low idle and I finally took the throttle body off and cleaned it. It had 180K of gunk all around the blade and walls of the TB. Since cleaning it, it has been great and actually has a better off idle throttle response. Before it had a very slight stumble coming off a light or stop sign. If it still has a low idle, you can adjust the stop on the TB. There is an allen screw at the back of the stop up inside a hole and you can crank it in a bit and it will raise your idle up. I would clean your TB first though. I cranked the screw first several months before I cleaned mine and afterwards the idle was too high. lol.


so i tried swaping the distributor pulse generator mounting points and it did make it run better. cold the engine idled good (around 700rpm) then as it warmed up the rpms went down. pretty quickly actually. maybe one minute of warm up with decent idle, then started going down.

i then decided to go back to my roots and check the spark plug readings, and do a compression check.
spark plugs did not have an even burn. they are new plugs with very little run time. just during the past week of testing and such.
#1 = isolator (white part) was dark brown completely.
#2 = isolator was completely white. with just a hint of light brown on one side.
#3 = isolator was half white on one side, light to medium brown on the other.
#4 = isolator was half white on one side, medium brown on the other.
#5 = isolator was half white on one side, light to medium brown on the other.
#6 = isolator was half white on one side, light to medium brown on the other.
all the electrodes (tips) looked the same and were pretty clean. not enough wear to yet to tell anything.

compression check yeilded pretty even and from what i read in a (ahuuummm) chiltons, were in the upper range.
#1 = 155 psi
#2 = 160 psi
#3 = 165+ psi
#4 = 160 psi
#5 = 155 psi
#6 = 165 psi

the #1 and #2 spark plug reading is what concerns me. when i took off the injectors and cleaned them i found a couple that sprayed funny. so i took the ones from the 87 parts jeep and started cleaning those. three were of a different style. similar but slightly different. but after cleaning and checking each spray into a groelch bottle (i love those for saving the carb cleaner) i ended up needing to use one of the ones that looked slightly different. it is on #2 cylinder. and it makes a much louder click than the rest. so i think i am going to re check the rest of the spares and find one that seems to be ok and install them back in. and no i can not afford to go buy 6 new injectors at $52 each right now. i plan to buy some from the guy that many on here have posted links to. (cant remember the site at the moment).

because of the uneven spark plug reading, i am now starting to think it is a fuel management issue, and not so much a sensor/electrical issue. i have a feeling the sensors and ECU are doing their jobs to aid in the poor fuel delivery.
stay tuned.
 
I have had this same issue. I tried everything/tested everything/replaced everything. My engine is freshly rebuilt. I was at a loss for what the issue was. I even tried a "known good" ECU.

Read my thread on RENIX low idle and how I was able to fix it. It runs great now and I consistently get 17 in town and 23 on the highway and it will maintain the electrical system at idle, it would not do this before.
 
My 90 XJ had a low idle and I finally took the throttle body off and cleaned it. It had 180K of gunk all around the blade and walls of the TB. Since cleaning it, it has been great and actually has a better off idle throttle response. Before it had a very slight stumble coming off a light or stop sign. If it still has a low idle, you can adjust the stop on the TB. There is an allen screw at the back of the stop up inside a hole and you can crank it in a bit and it will raise your idle up. I would clean your TB first though. I cranked the screw first several months before I cleaned mine and afterwards the idle was too high. lol.

That TB stop screw is not to be used for idle speed. It's only there to keep the steel throttle blade from digging into the soft material of the TB itself each time the throttle snaps shut.

Also, turning that screw messes up your TPS setting.
 
well back at it and after doing pretty much everything i could think of and what everyone has suggested i still could not figure out the low idle and slight stumble. recently i was fortunate enough to pick up a nice snap on leak down tester. so with yet another tool to help i thought i would give it a shot. results between a warm engine and a cold engine where quite different.
warm eng.
#1=25%
#2=15%
#3=15%
#4=30%
#5=15%
#6=15%

cold engine next morning.
#1=30%
#2=17%
#3=20%
#4=36%
#5=19%
#6=26%

all done at 100 psi. the warm test was first, done the night before but was hurrying to beat the dark. cold test this morning and took time to listen where the leaks where coming from. almost all from the crank case. using a stethoscope with a long tube i was able to hear very slight leaks from the ex on some and maybe even a tiny bit from the intakes. but pretty much all from the crank case. with the wide variation of results between cylinders i am beginning to think this can be the cause of the low idle and stumble. the ecu is trying to lean mixture for the weak cylinders while trying to richin it back up for the better ones. well sort of better. these results are not that good, but for an engine with 240k on the clock i suppose i should not be surprised. i am going to open up the spare 87 engine i have that has 130k on the meter and see what it looks like. may just swap it out. if i can save up some cash i may do a re-ring with new bearings and a slight hone. (glaze breaker). clean and lap the valves with new seals and see if i can get by for a while. atleast with the engine out i can open up all the wire looms and fix all the wireing, grounds, and connectors. get rid of the marginal grounding straps and replace with better cables.
 
Have you tried the XJTrailrider and EcoMike solution yet for your low idle? Have you cleaned out the rear CCV vent on top of the valve cover and tried blowing through the plastic CCV tubing and cleaned out the same vacuum port on the intake? That CCV tube is part of your idle air. That plastic tubing gets funky inside and the diameter is small.

Your compression numbers and leak down numbers are likely much better than mine and mine idles fine, a little low, but fine.

Have you tried, idling it without the air filter? Sometimes the simplest solution is the one we overlook.
 
yes i have cleaned ALL the vacuum lines and blown through with compressed air. i did the entire valve cover upgrade, even drilling the holes in the baffle. cleaned out the CCV gromet. i have not drilled out the plastic CCV nipple that goes into the gromet. but what i did do is to disconnect that line at the intake which gave it a larger diameter to suck air through. and that did raise the idle for a second, but then the ecu compensates and lowers the idle back down. so in theory i am thinking i must have a small vacuum leak SOMEWHERE in the system. which makes sense since the ecu keeps wanting to lower down the idle every time i raise by allowing more vacuum.

the compression numbers may be deceiving because when i was doing the leak down and moving the crankshaft to get TDC i was checking compression stroke with my finger over the hole. not much pressure build with that one little slow compression stroke. but when i do the test i allow it to crank quite a few times to let it build up. the first couple strokes do not build up that much pressure. as for the leak down numbers. they are livable but what concerns me is the variation. even cylinder pressure is pretty important to keep an engine running properly. be it high or low, as long as they are somewhat even.

on a happy note i did discover my stumble issue cause. i had a bad spark plug gap on #6. not sure how it got smashed but it had almost zero gap, BUT some gab, enough to have a slight discharge. all the plugs where quite sooty but i regapped them and cleaned them. i will run it for a bit and check them again. but the engine runs pretty darn smooth now. just still have the high start up rev, then down to normal idle for a second, then it creeps down to 300-400 rpm.

tried without filter, without air cleaner housing, and of course with everything installed.

again, my gut feeling is that there is a small vacuum leak somewhere. and that is my next attack mode. i may even install the new cat now that it is running so much better, then take it in for a prelim emissions test. basically that is what is holding me up on driving it. reg paid, ins paid, just need smog cert.
 
The screw--3/32 allen if I remember right--on the throttle body IS NOT an idle speed adjustment screw. It is there for ONE reason and one reason only--to prevent the throttle plate from slamming fully closed and damaging the alloy throttle body. NEVER attempt to set a base idle using that screw. To set the proper position, remove the intake tube, then back off the screw until the throttle plate stops moving (hopefully you have already cleaned the TB), then use a bright flashlight and advance the screw until you can first detect movement of the throttle plate--STOP, you are done.

The IAC controls the idle speed of the engine. If everything is up to snuff it should provide you with an idle around 700-750 RPM, fully warmed up engine (20 minutes of operation) in neutral with a manual transmission OR 700-750 RPM after 20 minutes of driving so that the engine and automatic transmission is fully warmed up, and it is checked in DRIVE (set the parking brake, have someone's foot on the service brakes).

Now, the IAC can become gummy, and they will also become "lazy", both inhibiting its response to the extend/retract commands from the PCM (ECU). You can't test the IAC without special tools, so you can remove it, clean it--never energize it when it is unmounted or you MAY damage it--and lube it.

Also, an engine that is running rich will result in a lower idle speed. Poor performing injectors, bad/lazy o2 sensor, bad coolant temp sensor, bad MAT, bad MAP--lots of things can result in a too rich mixture.

Poor grounds, out of spec/adjustment sensors are also other potential problem areas.

Cruiser54 has posted up TONS of good information. Search.
 
uncle bob had all ready did his thing with the throttle stop by the PO. i have removed the throttle body and completely cleaned it out. i re-set the throttle stop so the butterfly is as closed as possible without hitting the bore, then locktited the screw in place. installed a new stepper motor, new TPS. adjusted TPS trans side 84%, engine side .82V. the small air screw was completely seated from factory so i re-installed it completely seated.
installed a new O2 sensor, new coolant temp sensor, tried to find a new MAT but they do not exist so i got s few used ones from the junk yard, all test pretty good as far as i can tell. no temp gun but the coolant and MAT both seemed to follow the ohms test as they should. i have three MAP sensors and have tried swapping them aswell. spent many days testing sensors and wires with both DMM and anolog. even had a borrowed DRB tester that said all systems functioning properly.
i have followed all of Cruiser54's threads and recommendations. cleaned and soldered grounds, even added some extra grounds.
still what is bugging me is the 15 in vacuum. even the DRB tester told me it was 15 in. but i thought that was good vacuum. apparently renix systems want more. according to RAGS he says the magic number is 16.1 in or more for the MAP to function properly.
 
Just exercising the brain a little. Your compression is good, leak down test so so (at a guess, my leak down tests are primitive and rarely done over 30 PSI).

Low idle may be because the motor is running rich. The timing is off, either because the timing chain or cam is worn or faulty sensor inputs. But the Renix is normally going to compensate unless it runs out of advance. The TPS is the main timing controller, with inputs from other sensors, MAP etc..

I't is either running rich because some sensor is fooling it into running rich or for some reason your timing is being retarded. Engine temperature sensor pops into mind. Only way to know for sure is the check the resistance at the *ECU* and compare to the temperature resistance chart, I always check mine by going out in the cool of the morning and compare my Engine temperature sensor values with my MAT sensor values. They should be identical on a (ambient temperature) cold motor.

Just for giggles get an 9 volt battery, measure the battery voltage put it in series and measure the voltage from the TPS ground (ECU side) to battery negative. And/or with the TPS connected (motor running) measure the voltage from the TPS ground to the battery negative with the lowest DC volt scale you have, try it again with the motor off, kex in run position and throttle full open. Then switch over to the A/C volt scale and see what you get. If everything is good (should take less than half an hour to do) forget I mentioned it. :)

My motor is a whole lot tireder than yours, close to 300,000 miles and was run hard and seriously neglected before I ever got it, it idles fine now ( a little low). And will hang right in there with my HO stop light to stop light.

I find it hard to believe the MAP quits (or goes flaky) with less than 16 inches of vacuum, the only way I'm getting 16 inches of vacuum is near idle, peak torque with a constant throttle or coasting down a hill with my foot off the accelerator (LOL).

If you run out of things to do (LOL) turn the motor over by hand until it gets near TDC (maybe a quarter of the revolution off) then stick a curved piece of welding rod down the number one spark plug hole and turn the the balancer bolt by hand (ratchet) until the piston is all the way up. May take a couple of tries, back if off a ways and try again until you are satisfied the piston is at the top, last movement on the balancer always to the right as you are facing the motor. Check your timing marks, check the position of your rotor, check your firing order. Primitive but effective, beats mounting a degree wheel and checking things out correctly and a lot quicker. If something is really screwy it will show up this way, you can also use it as an indicator of just how far off everything is (from the ideal) from fair wear and tear. I've done this many times and it is a mostly by feel type of thing. I can tell the difference between good, acceptable and a worn out motor using this method.

Low vacuum, wear and tear, ignition timing, vacuum leak, valve timing or valve leaks. Leaky valves should show up on a vacuum test, you can see the erratic needle movement, not as pronounced as an ignition miss but much the same as an ignition miss. The needle is going to flutter some normally, bad valve and you get more pronounced erratic swings of the needle.

Good luck, been there done that and eventually succeeded, though I'm not going to tell you how long it actually took me. :) It was a real PITA.
 
well i rearranged some vacuum lines to take the MAP vacuum straight at the intake where there was a good 17 in. and plugged off the port on the throttle body. this did not make much of a difference.
you are correct. the ECU is definitely making it run rich. the plugs where black and sooty, and well it just plain smells like it is running rich at idle. there has got to be a sensor giving wrong info somewhere for sure. after the brief high idle at start up it goes down to a good 700 rpm and holds for a second, then it drops what almost sounds like in intervals and lands itself at about 300 rpm. every time i start it and it drops to that 700 rpm i get excited and yell "STAY". lol.
i have 2 other used MAT sensors i can swap and test with, i think i have another coolant temp sensor aswell. 1 extra knock sensor, and 0 extra O2 sensors. though the O@ sensor is new and when i tested it it seemed good. but when i did the anolog test to check the sweep back and forth from what i read to be around 4.5V down to maybe 1 volt, i was not getting such a long swing all the time. sort of sparatic. it would bounce back and forth but sometimes only go to 3 volts and back down to 2 volts. it just wasn't a constant sweep through the range. suppose i could have gotten a (sort of) faulty O2 sensor.
 
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