Lets talk nitrous

CW

NAXJA Forum User
I have researched turbo charging and supercharging to death and have even started into building a turbo manifold but I have given up because of a few reasons. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of nitrous. I can choose when it's on so I save on gas while just driving around, It takes up verry little space and requires little fabrication. I am thinking about going with a wet system similar to the one Hesco offers but I am hopeing to piece it together for less and have more controll when done.
nx1.jpg


I want to base it off of a 99+ intake manifold. I also want to have it activate at WOT and a certain rpm when I "arm" the system. I run an MSD 6A ignition right now so I think I can get all of the electronics to do this. I basically want it to behave like a conventional turbo system but only when I want the added power. I don't know a ton about the subject so any advice would be helpfull. What componants do I need and what if anything needs to be done as far as electronics with my Renix? What rpm is a good time to spray? How big of a shot can I safely run? etc. Any input is welcome on the subject. My engine is an accurate power stroker with stock 4.0L rods. The rotating assembly has been balanced.
 
CW - can you hit me backchannel on this - [email protected]? I've been kinda "blue sky-ing" this one - I've done some research, but no actual number crunching, and I'd like to come up with a couple theoretical setups beyond the two kits I've located and I'm still waiting to get information on.

IIRC, HESCOhas a kit via Nitrous Express, and I think Venom Performance has one or two kits as well. Still, I'd like to get more information on their kit before I say anything about it, and I'm also playing with some ideas centered around Holley's NOSzle upgrades - since there's little to no machining involved since the NOSzles plug into the bosses for the fuel injectors, so I just need to work out the nitrous and supplemental fuel flow rates. I just haven't done it since I don't know what anyone would be looking for, and I'd like some baselines to work from when I start to do this...

5-90
San Jose, CA
 
MSD has "window" switches to target a particular rpm range.
 
Sounds like fun! I've always heard the safest shot is 20 x no of cylinders, without some internal building. I hear that's as much as you would want to put on stock internals. Then from there depends on what you have done to the inside. Good luck!


Jason
 
CW said:
I have researched turbo charging and supercharging to death and have even started into building a turbo manifold but I have given up because of a few reasons. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of nitrous. I can choose when it's on so I save on gas while just driving around, It takes up verry little space and requires little fabrication. I am thinking about going with a wet system similar to the one Hesco offers but I am hopeing to piece it together for less and have more controll when done.
nx1.jpg


I want to base it off of a 99+ intake manifold. I also want to have it activate at WOT and a certain rpm when I "arm" the system. I run an MSD 6A ignition right now so I think I can get all of the electronics to do this. I basically want it to behave like a conventional turbo system but only when I want the added power. I don't know a ton about the subject so any advice would be helpfull. What componants do I need and what if anything needs to be done as far as electronics with my Renix? What rpm is a good time to spray? How big of a shot can I safely run? etc. Any input is welcome on the subject. My engine is an accurate power stroker with stock 4.0L rods. The rotating assembly has been balanced.


How are yoiu planning on plumbing the Renix EGR to the '99 manifold?

I too am interested in the spray.

CRASH
 
CRASH said:
How are yoiu planning on plumbing the Renix EGR to the '99 manifold?

I too am interested in the spray.

CRASH

The EGR is long gone. I am running a '94 HO head, manifolds, tb, and fuel rail. I don't have to deal with smog nazis.

I have been doing some research and I am thinking of going with a duel stage system, a smaller shot first at WOT to get things going and then a larger shot at a certain rpm. (I'm thinking 3300rpms would be safe.
 
WV Jeeper said:
Sounds like fun! I've always heard the safest shot is 20 x no of cylinders, without some internal building. I hear that's as much as you would want to put on stock internals. Then from there depends on what you have done to the inside. Good luck!

Jason

On a 4.0 with stock internals, a 75 shot is the maximum adviseable. Remember that you're adding a trendous amount of torque (~120lbft) that'll "shock load" the drivetrain so even if you don't break the engine, there's a fair chance you'll break something in the drivetrain. If you don't have much traction at the rear tires, you'll just break loose and go sideways instead.
You can reduce that risk by introducing the nitrous progressively, starting at ~2500rpm and reaching full steam by 3000rpm.
 
I've ran nitrous on 3 different vehicles...all being v-8's....and I wouldn't go over 75 to 100hp shot on anything that had stock....non-forged pistons in it....to begin with. As far as going with staged systems....I'd only do so if my bottom end....ie....forged steel crank, rods, arp rod bolts, bearings, caps, forged pistons....etc...was built to take that kind of harsh onslaught of power.
To make a motor live....with nitrous....especially the bigger systems....really requires some extensive..none-too-cheap mods. But as far as the bang-for-the-buck....it's awesome till something melts...lol!! I wouldn't be too scared if it was a motor I was familiar with and trusted....as long as I didn't go over 50 to 75hp shot. I agree with upgrading your other systems...ignition, fuel-pressure...(a must) fuel lines...etc. You should always do these upgrades w/nitrous systems. I'd add some kind of an oil pressure ignition cut-off in case of a problem. Because with the nitrous flowing sometimes a small problem can explode into a very big problem very quickly...lol.
But nitrous will definitely show you your motor's weak points...if it has any. Just my 2 Cents worth.

Good Luck

Aron
 
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I have forged pistons but the rest is oem. I was thinking a duel stage as a way to get around needing a computer to conroll the progression of the shot, but after looking at the computers I think they are the way to go. I wouldn't be using this on the street much and I will probably never take it to a track, I just want something to give me more power in mud and other stuff that requires power. Plus I am running out of ways to pull power out of the stroker. I think a 75 shot is what I will be going for, that will put me well over 300hp and the torque will be nice. How does n2o effect spark plugs and gapping?
 
CW said:
I have forged pistons but the rest is oem. I was thinking a duel stage as a way to get around needing a computer to conroll the progression of the shot, but after looking at the computers I think they are the way to go. I wouldn't be using this on the street much and I will probably never take it to a track, I just want something to give me more power in mud and other stuff that requires power. Plus I am running out of ways to pull power out of the stroker. I think a 75 shot is what I will be going for, that will put me well over 300hp and the torque will be nice. How does n2o effect spark plugs and gapping?

I'm glad to hear you are not planning to use this on the street. I am a big fan of N2O, having a 150HP system on my Ford 289, but it is only usefull in certain cases. N2O should only be used at WOT and a bottle wouldn't last very long if it were used often. At $50 a refill it's not the cheapest to use either. For a car that someone wants extra power in all the time a turbo or supercharger is the way to go. For someone wants extra power in just a few cases like at the track, N2O is hard to beat for the admission price.

As far as plugs go, 1 step cooler than stock would be a good starting point. Gap them at stock gap, running a large gap can cause problems with preignition in a N2O vehicle. From there an inspection of the plug after a N2O run would be in order to make sure you not to hot or cold.

Personally N2O on my Jeep is totally useless. I don't play in the mud often and mostly do slow trails in low range at very low speeds. When on the trail HP has never been an issue at all. Added HP when I tow with the Jeep would be great but I use the Jeep less and less for that sort of thing now. I have had thoughts of a Turbo system lately but the'll likely just stay thoughts.


HTH,
B-loose
 
CW said:
I have researched turbo charging and supercharging to death and have even started into building a turbo manifold but I have given up because of a few reasons. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of nitrous. I can choose when it's on so I save on gas while just driving around.

I just want to chime in about turbos and fuel economy. The thinking that adding a turbo will kill your fuel economy is a mistake. Let me explain.

With a properly sized turbo system, you won't have a loss of mpg while cruising. The reason for this is that during cruise a turbo won't be spinning fast enough to build boost.

While you are cruising a turbo will still spin but not fast enough to build a lot of pressure in the mainfold. What it will do is lower the vacuum inside the manifold. How much...well that depends on the turbo. You will still have vacuum in the manifold but much less than if the motor was NA.

What this drop in vacuum does is decrease the pumping losses of the engine. On the intake stroke the piston has to pull a vacuum in the cylinder inorder to draw the mixture in. This vacuum creates a force on the piston that is in the opposite direction...so you can think of it as negative torque on the crankshaft during the intake stroke.

Lowering this negative torque makes your net output torque increase because you are taking less torque away from the engine. Increasing the torque output will make the motor more efficient and increase your fuel economy.

I know that the concept is difficult to see but it is the same principal that drives EGR. Which many people think that if they get rid of will give them more power...but EGR is for another thread.
 
Bloose hit on a major factor....Wide Open Throttle....if you hit it at part throttle...you could have a backfire...it ain't pretty...progressive is a great idea, they are available as time based and rpm based...MSD can hook ya up. The only downside for progressive is it will wear the solenoids fairly rapidly.

Filtration...it is impossible to express how important fuel filtration is..a tiny piece of anything (especially in the fuel jet on a plate system) will restrict the fuel flow and lean the mix...nitrous is very intolerant of lean burn..if the fuel goes lean, the nitrous WILL FIND something else to oxidize..

If you are going to a wet system, be sure you have an ignition retard control to pull out a little timing. The burn rate with nitrous is fast...too much lead will hammer the rotating assembly...one more thing...never activate the nitrous without load...there is no rev limiter that can keep up.
 
MudDawg said:
...nitrous is very intolerant of lean burn..if the fuel goes lean, the nitrous WILL FIND something else to oxidize..

Yeah, too lean = too hot and when the combustion temp. rises above the melting point of aluminium, you can guess what happens to your pistons next and it ain't something good.
 
I don't buy my nitrous by the refill...I bought a 100# cylinder..the last time I exchanged it, it worked out to around $2.55 per pound..I transfill my cylinders using a high pressure braided line, a bottle adapter, accurate scale, plastic bucket and some ice.

Some words of advice...don't go for the kill on the initial tune-up....start with the lowest HP jets..stay WAY safe on the retard...then work up to it...assuming proper set up and tuning, the head gasket will be in jeopardy first. The thin steel fire ring on the composition head gasket will not maintain seal under a heavy nitrous load...you may find that it won't take a very big shot at all to make a noticable difference in torque...nitrous produces the most power when it is under a load. Thats why drag racers like it...it really benefits the back half of the pass...when the vehicle is under highest aerodynamic loads...
 
I experimented with N2O twenty years ago, but not much has changed except the controls & electronics. The wet plate (fogger) systems were prefered for their simplicity. A N2O solenoid and a fuel solenoid, and a metering device (jet) at the plate entry with distribution tubes in the plate opening. The only hardware change these days is additional sets of matched soleniods for each stage.

N2O is only progressive when fed in stages, and only beyond WOT power. If your normal engine WOT output is 250hp then a 25/50 N2O system will deliver and increase in power from 250 to 275 (25hp) and then 300hp (50hp). There is no gradual throttling between each step.

I used a brake pedal switch as a lock-out, and a WOT throttle switch to enable the system, with a separate enabling switch. I did not have the rpm based electronics available today to prevent low rpm triggering, I used a loose torque converter (3500 stall) to assure the rpm was well into the powerband. I would stage with the brakes on, enable the system (after the burnout tire cleanup ritual), and mash the throttle.

Adding an rpm based switch (MSD or other) to accomplish the same function is a better method.

My primary ride where I played with the N2O was a 70' GTO with a moderately built Pontiac 400. It would run mid-13 second ETs at 100 to 105 mph, without the N2O. Not too bad for a 4000# car with a full interior and street tires (~375hp). The N2O would drop the ET a second and a half (easy low 12's) with a fresh bottle. The system started as a Downey Service Center fogger system (a plate system advertised at 100hp), a design copied from the early NOS systems. I ran a Q-jet for a while, and then various square and spread bore 650/780/850 Holley vacuum secondary carbs, and finalized with a modified 700 cfm double pump Holley (modified to flow about 735 cfm with no choke horn and polishing). The vacuum secondary carbs were not safe (IMO) as the secondary transition to WOT was neither consistant or reliable once the N2O was triggered.

Things that helped power and consistancy:

Locate the solenoids as close to the plate and pill (jet) as possible. This prevents the fuel and N2O from premature phase change (liquid to vapor) before it is injected into the manifold. Vapor in the fuel lines is bad, fuel vapor does not have the density of liquid fuel, presenting a lean condition until the vapor clears (a boom if the line needing clearing is long).

Protect the solenoids and fuel/N2O lines from heat (for the same reason, to prevent vapor in the lines). I built an oversize aluminum heat reflector plate that bolted between the manifold and the N2O spacer. The solenoids and brackets screwed to this plate.

Use a return line fuel system to keep the fuel in liquid form. The pre 1996 XJ MPI uses a return line fuel system, so this should not prove too difficult. I ran separate fuel pumps for the N2O after too many fuel pressure related failures (from vapor in the lines). I regulated the fuel pressure for both the carb needle valves and N2O solenoid.

Use a cool can for the fuel line (a can with a spiral fuel line inside to precool the fuel before feeding the solenoid). I noted power and consistancy gains with chilled fuel. The cool can was downstream of the fuel regulator (to allow it's volume to work as a pressure tank).

Own a couple of N2O bottles, and fill them all at the same time (at the same pressure and temperature). I owned a range of cylinders: 3#, 5#, 10# & 20#, in both siphon and regular bottles (with mounts for both bottle styles). I owned a 120# cylinder to fill the smaller cylinders. Race day preparation including filling four 5# cylinders off a hose manifiold from the larger cylinder. I could only fit four 5# cylinders in my ice machine box to cool them while filling (it helped with the fill).

A 5# cylinder would produce about 20-30 seconds of consistant power (four runs max) before the N2O pressure would drop off. The 10# cylinders would produce about six or seven runs before the same drop in power. The 20# cylinders would produce consistant power for about twelve runs. For maximum power it was better to swap-in a fresh cylinder than trust an aging bottle.

I did not use the bottle warmers common today, or any electronics other than simple switches. While my goal was consistant power for bracket racing I was able to drop the maximum enhancement from the N2O three tenth's of a second using the above small modifications (the improvement over the original bolt-on performance was from ~80hp to ~120hp). The most effective aid to consistancy was multiple fresh bottles.

The main drawback to the N2O was WOT-only power, and the limited number of runs between fresh bottles (even with a 20# bottle). You could not use the N2O playing around on the street, not for burnouts or tail-out power slide turns (no throttling capability). You needed to be on good traction with a straight run to make good use of the enhancement. The on/off power delivery from the N2O was not easy to compensate for, and any lack of traction put the engine deep past the redline rpm. A slip out of the tire traction grooves at the drag strip (on one run) zinged the engine past 8000 rpm (in second gear at over 60mph), with two broken valve springs being the result. Not exactly a good attribute for a daily driver.

Power for passing on the road was also an easy way to use up a bottle (pass one line of cars and you quickly catch the next line, needing more power, just to catch the next group, etc.). The power was easy to use, but it got to be a chore to charge and swap bottles all the time.

If you have the need for power, and can afford the expense, supercharging is as effective and less trouble (so is buying ;) a big-block buggy or racer).
 
Modern progressive wet systems work by pulse width modulation, hence the fairly rapid solenoid wear. you can select the beginning percentage, final percentage and build time. controls are also availabe that can progress at first and regress either time based or from inputs such as gear selection to prevent down track wheelspin.

The controller we use on the dragbikes is amazing. two stage progressive, adjustable ramp rate. two stage retard adjustable ramp rate, lo rpm limit, hi rpm limit, auto trans shift, and two independent multi purpose timers, and the ignition control is clean enough to pull 18K+rpm on a 4 cylinder engine. All in a 4" by 6" package.
 
i've got a 90xj , and i'm running a nitrous kit .

n.o.s. brand . (dry kit ) for a late model mustang . part #05115-0015

this setup works perfect . i'm running a 75hp jets and it has worked great for the last year . i only use it for a few laughs . on the street , but in the woods i've used it climbing hills a few times and going thur a mud hole or two .

i talked to n.o.s a few times before i hooked this setup up . getting all the info i needed to make sure it would work and i'd have no problems . i was told not to really go over 100hp with out forged pistons . (ei: 125hp max ) with stock interals . i started out at 50hp and have slowly made it too 75hp . and i'm thinking about jumping up too 100hp here soon .

just thought i'd share this with you and what i know works on a xj's 4.0 .
 
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