Legal opinions on water run off

[RichP]

OK, my water problems are all stemming from run off from the 5 acre recreation area in back of my house. They never installed a road pipe under the driveway into the parking area, they did install one about 50ft in and this runs alongside the tree line between the parking area and the road, at no point did they cut a drin thru to the drainage ditch alongside the road, it ends up dumping onto the back of my property and runs thru my driveway. Opinions, I am a member of the association but have not gotten any response except 'we will look into it'. Don't really want to spend money on a lawyer. Are there any options, town engineers maybe. I just want it fixed so I'm not spending $200 a year on gravel and need a way to rattle their cage abit.

 

[woody]

Hmmm as a civil engineering/surveying tech for NCDOT... I'd research their site plan...make copies...indicate the adverse waterflow on a couple, and persue it -with phonecalls- to the appropriate engineers (CF to town engineer, county health dept, state DNR etc...)

Besides the obvious erosion of your DW, don't be afraid to mention any standing water issues upon your land and the commensurate potential issues (mosquito borne virii)

I dunno about the watershed laws up there but... where does the water go after your property?

Maybe that the responsible entity takes over the drainage flow area in eminent domain and pays you for the adverse possesion... (permanent drainage easement) or makes a settlement/repairs to you and the downstream neighbors...puts a bigger culvert in your driveway, improves up & downstream drainage (erosion control measures)

I am not a lawyer or civil engineer, but if I had new stormwater issues with a public entity...I'd be all over their butt like a diaper.

Worst case if they all blow you off...My good friends Chickenwire, Sandbag & Bentonite would come in from out of town and get intimate with all their drainpipes.

 

[Eagle]

A lot depends on whether or not anything uphill/upstream of you has been changed since you bought your property. I'm sure the details are different state by state, but the general rule is that a property owner (which usually includes both property associations and municipalities) cannot alter topography in a way that increases runoff onto an adjoining property.

If the grades are the way they were when you bought the property, nobody has any responsibility to "fix" it for you because you bought it.

 

[woody]

"I'm sure the details are different state by state, but the general rule is that a property owner (which usually includes both property associations and municipalities) cannot alter topography in a way that increases runoff onto an adjoining property."

That is where mitigation comes into play. The water HAS to go somewhere... (downhill-downstream to a watershed somewhere)
If they are passing more onto you (and your downhill neighbors) than before, you need some relief.

Some municipalities here in NC have an asses$ment (tax) on property owners to deal with storm runoff... I 'think' the owners of paved shopping centers with BigBox roofs-that spills 100%/absorbs 0%- are assesed harder than an owner of a lot that absorbs or passes water through... as in undeveloped land

My neighbor clearcut 20 acres above me...and we get a bunch more runoff than we used to...by Eagle's test they didn't change any grades...but they killed a bunch of the sponge stuff which used to help...what that means is I need a larger pipe(16" vs 4") to drain the part-time pond that collects in my meadow...and spills over my dam. I don't expect the upstream owner to pay for the upgrades, but I also expect the downstream owner to deal with it.

 

[Eagle]

Actually, Woody, by Connecticut's laws clear-cutting 20 acres would make the upstream property owner responsible for reimbursing you the cost of mitigating the additional run-off. Not all of it, but the amount by which his actions caused it to increase. If that meant digging up a small pipe and installing a big pipe -- he would be responsible.

'Course, here in the over-regulated northeast, he couldn't clear-cut the parcel in the first place without a permit from both the Inland Wetlands Commission and the Zoning Board. Both would (should) have looked at and asked about the impact on down-slope properties, and would have required mitigation as a precondition to issuing the permit.

 

[RichP]

It was pretty OK till about 5 years ago when the developer who built our development extended the parking lot about another 50ft, then things changed but we were in the middle of a drought so it took a while to show up. I went to the association president, got the old the 'we'll look into it' then he was not relected, since then we have had 3 different presidents and boards.
The developement has a pretty good ditch system and all properties are supposed to have drainage pipes of at least 12" at every driveway enterance, all the roads have 24" pipes. The developer neglected to put one in the street side of the rec area driveway. The rec area covers 5 rectangular acres across the 4 lots above it and the 4 lots below it, the bottom corner being mine, it has a drainage ditch all along the back footage but it all channels into that one in the back of the drivway that backs my property, thats where the water goes.
Physically my options are to cut a swath across the back of my propety, build a coffer dam angled to the road or the neighbors property, expensive and out of my pocket. Have the association cut a trench at the end of their drainage ditch to the one on the road, fast, cheap and easy to do. The question is how to twist their collective arms into doing it short of running for office this fall as a board member which I don't want to do. I hate getting the town involved or lawyers but it's starting to get expensive and tiring, we just moved 40 wheel barrows today and I'm tired.
I like the bentonite and chicken wire idea, no pipes to plug though that would do any good.
I think I'll start off with a registered letter and go from there. I have also gotten to know a few people on the town govt now that I'm on the chamber of commerce so I'll talk to them next meeting as well as the two lawyers that attend the the meetings.

 

[Eagle]

Whatever you do, do NOT channel the water away from you onto a neighbor's property. Unless you have their permission, this would make YOU the bad guy, and they'd be suing you. The fact that water is draining onto your property does not give you a right to divert it onto someone else's property.

 

[woody]

Ya have a good start in that you know what YOUR objective is. (getting adverse drainage runoff off your driveway)

"The developer neglected to put one in the street side of the rec area driveway. The rec area covers 5 rectangular acres across the 4 lots above it and the 4 lots below it, the bottom corner being mine, it has a drainage ditch all along the back footage but it all channels into that one in the back of the drivway that backs my property, thats where the water goes."

My friend...squeal like the proverbial stuck hawg. I know you 'live there' and probably aren't a wave making type... but it's costing you time, mareials and labor...so go get them (them being the folks who own/manage that rec area) if it is your own owners assoc. -a foreign concept to me but - so be it.

Don't be afraid to call your state DEQ/DENR if need be...tell them that the upstream neighbors are polluting your land via runoff & they'll be there in a flash... when they arrive say :dunno: all them cars up there... (hide your waste oil pit)

I'd for once like to hear of the Government working FOR somebody

 

[Mike in NJ]

Rich:

As a member of a municipal planning board for nearly 30 years (NJ of course, but I would bet that most Eastern States have similar principles), I have to agree with Eagle and Woody.

ANY developer (municipalities included) cannot alter the basic runoff conditions. Of course, this also means that, if there was a water flow across your property BEFORE development, the developer is under no obligation to mitigate it. But, if the improvements (any grading or constructions) worsens any condition, it is absolutely their obligation to correct it - direction, velocity, capacity. There has to be a ZERO change off tract from pre-existing conditions (in fairness, most developers do actually improve conditions, but they are not forced to, just not make it worse).

Whatever passes for the Zoning Inspector in your township should be called in - let the municipality police the violations, he should bring in the township engineer on the town's dime - that's what you presumably pay taxes for.

Mike in NJ atriot: