Leaked video from Iraq

[Darky]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36182383/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa

Shows a gun camera video of an Apache engaging hostile forces. Those hostile forces were then later revealed to at least have civilian journalists intermixed. Some comments were made by the pilot and gunner in the helicopter that could be taken poorly, such as: "Yeah, look at those dead bastards", and when finding out there was a child that had been injured, "Well it's their fault for bringing them into a war zone."

I personally don't think videos like this should be getting released. That's how we shot each of our troops in the back in Vietnam, footage showing the "inhumane" side of war, turning public opinion against them and strengthening the enemy. A smaller, less powerful, guerrilla force relies on psychological warfare as a big part of their gameplan.

As to their comments, yes they sound a bit calloused, but that's why we have the warrior class: to go do the unpleasant things that the populace has no stomach for. If we start releasing potentially damaging footage of everything they do, we're essentially signing their death warrants. Make them doubt what they're doing, they'll hesitate when it comes time to pull the trigger. Hesitation means death in war.

There is no black and white in war, there is only shades of grey. I think we need to give our guys the benefit of the doubt. if they are at that 1% of the spectrum where it's obvious they were wrong, fine, but forthe other 99% of the time, let's stop trying to hold them to the same standard we're held to in normal life.

 

[dgrigorenko]

well put darky

 

[ECKSJAY]

Meh.

 

[Darky]

Got a nice PM from xcm, but apparently he doesn't want to share with the rest of the class...

 

[xcm]

i was trying to get a straight up convo going with one of you, without the group retardness striking. to see if theres that much dissagreement, or if its just in how stuff is presented. as usual, you dont actually respond to any of my points, but just troll and troll.

 

[xcm]

I think we need to give our guys the benefit of the doubt. if they are at that 1% of the spectrum where it's obvious they were wrong, fine, but forthe other 99% of the time, let's stop trying to hold them to the same standard we're held to in normal life.

one of the things i pointed out, is you are seriously arguing that we should hold our troops to a nice and low standard? because theyre really stressed out. i hope they dont get exhaustion, or get dehydrated.

 

[Shorty]

I agree with XCM-- you can't shoot until you are positive all the soon to be dead bastards are carrying weapons. They should have landed and asked each person with cameras and children to move.

 

[whycantitbeT/C]

? Please tell me the "They should have landed and asked each person with cameras and children to move" was a joke... I have friends over there and if they stopped and asked every kid to move before they did something they would all be dead... One of my friends was a sniper he had to cover some road he could not really talk about what it was for or anything so i dont know... but he said time after time he would see kids stand in the middle of the road and stop a truck and after the truck stops the kid runs off and guys jump out and start unloading on the truck...

Yes there is times where our guys mess up... But they are at war... And its a place where the people we are fighting are not scared to use kids as bait... I dont know the whole story behind this but we dont need any more slander on are guys over there then we already have... They are just there doing there jobs... Yes they mess up sometimes... we all do....

And about them saying things while they are doing it... Everyone says stupid shit at the spur of the moment i dont see how anyone can hold that against them... If i had a job where i was killing people everyday i would have to crack jokes and try to take every situation as lightly is i could too... Its not easy living with guilt like that..

 

[Darky]

but just troll and troll.

one of the things i pointed out, is you are seriously arguing that we should hold our troops to a nice and low standard? because theyre really stressed out. i hope they dont get exhaustion, or get dehydrated.

From my response to you

This shouldn't need to be said, but how you act and react in a warzone is entirely different from being back home. Yeah, shooting someone for looking suspicious is bad juju here at home, but then in Afghanistan, you're facing a foe who wears no uniform so he looks like everyone else, will bring children and civilians with him to act as a shield, would love to kill you and then defile your corpse (ie behead you set you on fire drag you through the streets and then hang you from a bridge), and would sneak an RPG or other weapons up in a makeshift ambulance. And maybe you don't know what a few 30mm rounds will do to a human body, but there'd be nothing left for an ambulance/paramedic to work on. A 30mm round is designed to take out lightly armored vehicles. It's what the Apache uses (that's what the video was from) and also the main weapon of the A-10 Warthog "Tank Killer".

As far as my opinion on releasing these types of videos, look at coverage of WWI and WWII vs coverage of Vietnam. Now look at our record in those three wars. We went 2-1, right? Which one did we lose? And what factors did we have control over in that loss? It was a new world of openness for reporters. They were able to go with the troops, film, photograph and show just about all of it to the American public. That means for the first time, America got to see the "inhumane" side of war. The public turned against our troops and this was a huge morale booster for our enemy. NVA generals came out and said later that they were almost ready to surrender at one point but they knew that we wouldn't last much longer with our own public against us. I don't want to do that to our guys again.

So you've chosen your side, I'll choose mine. I'm for making the other guy die for his cause. I'm for using whatever means we have to kill insurgents and protect our guys. I'm neutral on killing Reuters people when they embed themselves with the insurgents. Don't want to kill non-combatants, but not gonna not kill combatants just because they have non-combatants with them. They show us the same courtesy, except they'll kill NCs even when there are no troops around.

I agree with XCM-- you can't shoot until you are positive all the soon to be dead bastards are carrying weapons. They should have landed and asked each person with cameras and children to move.

:roflmao:

 

[Boatwrench]

We can either expect our US Forces to be held to a high standard for rules of engagement and code of conduct or we can be like the other guys. Can't have it both ways.

In war bad things happen and sometimes innocents get swept up into the carnage, children are told what to do by the only authority figure they know, their parent. The independent reporters were not innocent, they voluntarily took the risk to get the right shot and placed themselves in danger. It be interesting to pick up their cameras and develop the film.

Our forces in the Apache making comments, stress relief and coping mechanism.

 

[whycantitbeT/C]

We can either expect our US Forces to be held to a high standard for rules of engagement and code of conduct or we can be like the other guys. Can't have it both ways.

In war bad things happen and sometimes innocents get swept up into the carnage, children are told what to do by the only authority figure they know, their parent. The independent reporters were not innocent, they voluntarily took the risk to get the right shot and placed themselves in danger. It be interesting to pick up their cameras and develop the film.

Our forces in the Apache making comments, stress relief and coping mechanism.

Nice to see someone else sees things the way i do..:wave:

 

[FlexdXJ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36182383/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa

Shows a gun camera video of an Apache engaging hostile forces. Those hostile forces were then later revealed to at least have civilian journalists intermixed. Some comments were made by the pilot and gunner in the helicopter that could be taken poorly, such as: "Yeah, look at those dead bastards", and when finding out there was a child that had been injured, "Well it's their fault for bringing them into a war zone."

I personally don't think videos like this should be getting released. That's how we shot each of our troops in the back in Vietnam, footage showing the "inhumane" side of war, turning public opinion against them and strengthening the enemy. A smaller, less powerful, guerrilla force relies on psychological warfare as a big part of their gameplan.

As to their comments, yes they sound a bit calloused, but that's why we have the warrior class: to go do the unpleasant things that the populace has no stomach for. If we start releasing potentially damaging footage of everything they do, we're essentially signing their death warrants. Make them doubt what they're doing, they'll hesitate when it comes time to pull the trigger. Hesitation means death in war.

There is no black and white in war, there is only shades of grey. I think we need to give our guys the benefit of the doubt. if they are at that 1% of the spectrum where it's obvious they were wrong, fine, but forthe other 99% of the time, let's stop trying to hold them to the same standard we're held to in normal life.

I agree Darky, it sucks that they "reportedly" fired on innocent reporters and iraqis but what if that camera was an RPG. You just never know. I too say we give them the benefit of the doubt. War is hard and if you think innocent casualties aren't gonna happen you're crazy. My heart goes out to the families of the Apache crew and the innocent people involved.

 

[JNickel101]

I agree with XCM-- you can't shoot until you are positive all the soon to be dead bastards are carrying weapons. They should have landed and asked each person with cameras and children to move.

Welcome to kinder, gentler war....whatever happened to the way we did things in WWII....oh wait....yes, the dredded "embedded reporter" (and yes, someone will say the Geneva Conventions too....)

I don't feel sorry for anyone in war...as the incredibly cliche` quote goes - "All is fair in true love, and war...."

That's the way it should be.

 

[tbburg]

I watched the whole video on another site. What I noticed:
There was a pretty clear silhouette of an RPG.
The guy holding the RPG looked like he was setting up to shoot.
Everyone seemed to be in civilian clothing.
No markings on the "ambulance". (They have this organization in the middle east see, it's called the red crescent. If you paint a red crescent inside a white background on a vehicle, nobody will shoot at it,... well, at least nobody on our side,...)

Also, by audio: There was another helio orbiting the scene(presumably a pair of Apaches). Both helio crews identified weapons being carried by members of the group. They asked for and received permission to engage, then engaged according to the ROI in place at the time. No foul. They could have been a group of 13 year-olds holding AKs and RPGs. It would be unpleasant, but still a clean kill.

After the fact, two of the people in an armed group turn out to be "embedded" reporters(embedded with insurgents, dressed just like you,... brilliant!) And two others were "children"( a term the press uses for anyone between "infant" and "not quite old enough to legally drink". So they helpfully caption the gun camera footage to help "prove" it was premeditated murder. I thought it was a nice touch when they labeled the children inside the van.

The only thing this video makes me wonder is; What were the reporters trying to film? An attack on American forces by insurgents?
Something tells me that if the footage had been shot the way they intended, it would have never made it to Reuters. Instead, it would have shown up on the internet, photog/reporter uncredited, showing "our boys" valiantly standing up to the American aggressor/occupier.

One last factoide. It seems that there were 12-15 wounded/killed. The people making noise about this want somebody charged with murder for the deaths of the reporters, and the children. The other 8-11 were OK though?

 

[xDUMPTRUCKx]

They cry about these god damn photographers who were over the shoulders of a guy with an RPG......gtfo.

Ever toss a frag into a room not knowing what was in there........shit happens.

XXXX this war, XXXX these stupid people preying on the emotions of the American people, and XXXX the DOD for allowing shit like this to be released.

 

[WB9YZU]

What the crew identified as weapons were in fact camera equipment. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100406/us_nm/us_iraq_usa_journalists_2

The gunsight tracks two of the men, identified by WikiLeaks as the Reuters news staff, as the fliers identify their cameras as weapons. Military spokesman Turner said that during the engagement, the helicopter mistook a camera for a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.

The White House has tagged this incident as "extremely tragic".

So...

Ron

 

[fscrig75]

These individuals were ID'd as having weapons by 2 different air crews. It's easy to slowmo the video now and say that it's a camera, but try doing that when you're in that flying gun.

War isn't perfect, weapons were ID'd permission was given to engage and people died. I'm sure the crew that engaged that crowd sees those images every night and now are much more critical about ID'ing targets to engage. As for their comments, they sound harsh and uncaring but life over there is just that. Everyone deals with coping in their own way.

 

[joe_peters]

1. If you don't want to be exposed to death in a war zone--don't be in a war zone.

2. When in doubt, see number 1.

 

[Darky]

They cry about these god damn photographers who were over the shoulders of a guy with an RPG......gtfo.

Ever toss a frag into a room not knowing what was in there........shit happens.

XXXX this war, XXXX these stupid people preying on the emotions of the American people, and XXXX the DOD for allowing shit like this to be released.

I think this was leaked by a "whistleblower". That whistleblower should be found and tried for treason/releasing sensitive information. Even if it wasn't marked Secret, you know it had to at least be marked as FOUO.

 

[DrMoab]

I agree with XCM-- you can't shoot until you are positive all the soon to be dead bastards are carrying weapons. They should have landed and asked each person with cameras and children to move.

This, my friend is the reason we can no longer win a war.

War is an ugly dirty and unfair business. People get killed. Ever hear how many churches were bombed in Europe during WWII?

It sucks to kill little kids and civilians but it's just a fact of war.