- Location
- Port Orchard, WA
87xjco said:
Parts Mike reccomends 105... I hope it isnt that hard to take em off If i ever need too...
HP44 build for the Xota
- Thread starter 87xjco
- Start date
Parts Mike reccomends 105... I hope it isnt that hard to take em off If i ever need too...
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
Time for the locker and gear install.
Here i've started with removing the carrier bearing caps and i'm just checking to see how tight the carrier is in the housing. Hopefully it WON'T easily come out. If it did, that would mean there's not enough carrier bearing preload. I have a wrench on one of the ring gear bolts and i'm rotating the flange to see if the carrier will come out.
It doesn't and that's good.
I want to have to use the case spreader and hopefully spread it somewhere between .015" and .020", before that carrier will come out.
I measure that with a dial indicator and set it to "0" before I start spreading the case
I spread it to about .018" before I was able to get the carrier to move with just a little bit of force. That's good, it means the shims that are on that carrier were just right for carrier bearing preload, and I will use the same thickness on the new carrier when I install it. That will make a real good starting point.
Once the carriers out I see something interesting, the oil slinger is damaged. I suspect either when someone installed gears before, that plate was bent or gouged, and it caught the ring gear and got mangled. Either that or some pretty big debris got in there and caused the damage.
I guess it could of had a loose pinion nut or bad bearing at one time to.
Once the pinion and races are out, it's important to keep track of what shims were in place and all the slingers and their position. The shims often get damaged when knocking everything out, i'll just measure the thickness of each and replace it with the new ones from the kit.
I have alot of dirt and grime to clean out of the housing tubes and inside the housing before I can start assembly
More later...
Here i've started with removing the carrier bearing caps and i'm just checking to see how tight the carrier is in the housing. Hopefully it WON'T easily come out. If it did, that would mean there's not enough carrier bearing preload. I have a wrench on one of the ring gear bolts and i'm rotating the flange to see if the carrier will come out.
It doesn't and that's good.
I want to have to use the case spreader and hopefully spread it somewhere between .015" and .020", before that carrier will come out.
I measure that with a dial indicator and set it to "0" before I start spreading the case
I spread it to about .018" before I was able to get the carrier to move with just a little bit of force. That's good, it means the shims that are on that carrier were just right for carrier bearing preload, and I will use the same thickness on the new carrier when I install it. That will make a real good starting point.
Once the carriers out I see something interesting, the oil slinger is damaged. I suspect either when someone installed gears before, that plate was bent or gouged, and it caught the ring gear and got mangled. Either that or some pretty big debris got in there and caused the damage.
I guess it could of had a loose pinion nut or bad bearing at one time to.
Once the pinion and races are out, it's important to keep track of what shims were in place and all the slingers and their position. The shims often get damaged when knocking everything out, i'll just measure the thickness of each and replace it with the new ones from the kit.
I have alot of dirt and grime to clean out of the housing tubes and inside the housing before I can start assembly
More later...
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
Now I can start pressing on some bearings and i'll need to know the thickness of the shims that are currently installed.
I don't really have to pull the pinion bearing off, all I really need to do is mic the oil slinger thickness, and install a new one that is the same. If it wasn't mangled, i'd reuse the current one.
But I went ahead and pulled the bearing, just to have the slinger to hang on the wall or something
Master kits don't always come with all the slingers, and this Motive Power one doesn't have that slinger in it.
But I keep all the left over shims from previous installs, and I had one.
It is .025" thick and matches the old one. Now I can press the new bearing on.
Now I pull both carrier bearings
And I keep track of the shims that were under each bearing, they are not damaged at all, so I will just reuse them.
I don't really have to pull the pinion bearing off, all I really need to do is mic the oil slinger thickness, and install a new one that is the same. If it wasn't mangled, i'd reuse the current one.
But I went ahead and pulled the bearing, just to have the slinger to hang on the wall or something
Master kits don't always come with all the slingers, and this Motive Power one doesn't have that slinger in it.
But I keep all the left over shims from previous installs, and I had one.
It is .025" thick and matches the old one. Now I can press the new bearing on.
Now I pull both carrier bearings
And I keep track of the shims that were under each bearing, they are not damaged at all, so I will just reuse them.
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
Let me know if i'm boring you guy's with too many details and pic's. I do tend to be long winded at times.
Now I can go ahead and put in the pinion gear and carrier so I can run the pattern and check to see if the pinion depth is good.
First the shim and the stepped slinger. That new shim is .005" thick, same as the old one that came out.
Then I can pound in the inner race, I've also already installed the new axle seals.
Then I knock in the new outer pinion race as well
Then I lube the two pinion bearings and install the pinion gear, I am leaving out the pinion preload shims and the pinion seal, I carefully tighten the pinion nut until I can feel resistance when turning the pinion, that resistance should be close to the pinion bearing preload spec of 14 to 19 in lbs. I also use an old pinion nut that I have ground off the locking part of the nut. That way I won't damage any threads as new locking pinion nuts sometimes will do.
I've pressed on the carrier bearings with the same shims under each, that were on the old carrier.
By the way you can't always use a flat plate against a bearing like i'm doing, some times the cage will be damaged, but these inner races set higher then the cage on these bearings, so it's o/k here.
Then I can lube those bearings up. Spread the case again (I backed off the spreader as I always do whenever I don't need it spread).
And then slid the carrier into the housing, I make sure that there is at least some backlash or play between the ring gear and pinion gear as the carrier gets bolted in. In this case I can tell that the backlash is too tight by feel, so I know I'll have to make some shim changes, but as long as there is a little play, I know I won't damage the gears.
With the case still spread, I only tighten the carrier cap bolts a little more than hand tight, then I release the tension from the case spreader, still making sure I have some backlash, then I torque the cap bolts to spec and I can run the pattern now.
The pattern is what tells me if I have the depth of the pinion correct.
Here the coast side is a little deep but not too bad.
The drive side I am happy with, it's a little bit deep, I suppose the perfect pattern is right in the middle, but the inner area is the strongest part of the gear and I actually prefer the pattern to be a little deep
If I were wanting it not as deep, I would change the shim that is between the inner pinion bearing race and the housing from the current .005" to .004" or maybe .003", and then run the pattern again.
Now I can go ahead and put in the pinion gear and carrier so I can run the pattern and check to see if the pinion depth is good.
First the shim and the stepped slinger. That new shim is .005" thick, same as the old one that came out.
Then I can pound in the inner race, I've also already installed the new axle seals.
Then I knock in the new outer pinion race as well
Then I lube the two pinion bearings and install the pinion gear, I am leaving out the pinion preload shims and the pinion seal, I carefully tighten the pinion nut until I can feel resistance when turning the pinion, that resistance should be close to the pinion bearing preload spec of 14 to 19 in lbs. I also use an old pinion nut that I have ground off the locking part of the nut. That way I won't damage any threads as new locking pinion nuts sometimes will do.
I've pressed on the carrier bearings with the same shims under each, that were on the old carrier.
By the way you can't always use a flat plate against a bearing like i'm doing, some times the cage will be damaged, but these inner races set higher then the cage on these bearings, so it's o/k here.
Then I can lube those bearings up. Spread the case again (I backed off the spreader as I always do whenever I don't need it spread).
And then slid the carrier into the housing, I make sure that there is at least some backlash or play between the ring gear and pinion gear as the carrier gets bolted in. In this case I can tell that the backlash is too tight by feel, so I know I'll have to make some shim changes, but as long as there is a little play, I know I won't damage the gears.
With the case still spread, I only tighten the carrier cap bolts a little more than hand tight, then I release the tension from the case spreader, still making sure I have some backlash, then I torque the cap bolts to spec and I can run the pattern now.
The pattern is what tells me if I have the depth of the pinion correct.
Here the coast side is a little deep but not too bad.
The drive side I am happy with, it's a little bit deep, I suppose the perfect pattern is right in the middle, but the inner area is the strongest part of the gear and I actually prefer the pattern to be a little deep
If I were wanting it not as deep, I would change the shim that is between the inner pinion bearing race and the housing from the current .005" to .004" or maybe .003", and then run the pattern again.
Israel
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Spanish Fahrk, Utah
Great write-up on gear install! In this case, I think the more details and the simpler the explanation, the better. Thanks!
ColoradoRaptor
Headbanging Hillbilly
- Location
- Canon City, Crawlorado
Israel said:
X2 Enjoyed it!:cheers: :
:
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
Thanks! I'm probably not doing to good with the simple explanations now.
So now that I know the pinion depth is good, I can now set the pinion bearing preload. So out comes the carrier and the pinion gear, and now I can install the shims you see below. There are 2 - .025" shims and 1 - .001" shim, same as what was on the old pinion. And I will install just these parts, leaving out the pinion seal and still using an old pinion nut.
I tighten down the pinion nut checking the turning resistance of the pinion as I go.
If it starts to get too tight before the pinion nut is all the way tight, I will need to stop and add more shims, I don't want to damage the bearings by over tightening.
If there was slop or the pinion turns real easily by hand, I will need to remove shims.
To get it just right, the turning resistance needs to be measured with an inch lb. torque wrench and the spec is 14 to 19 inch lbs.
The first time I did not get hardly any turning resistance when the nut was tight, so I took the pinion back out and removed 1 of the .025" shims, and I installed a .020" shim.
Here's where you need some patience when installing gears. I know i'm gonna mess with this awhile and I also know that the carrier shims are gonna need some changes.
So after that last shim change, I am reading about 20 inch lbs. and the nut is not all the way tight, so I'm gonna have to add a shim. It's close though, so I'm just gonna add a .001" shim.
After adding a .001" shim, I set the blue needle to 0 and then turned the pinion, and blue needle moved to the max resistance I had, sort of like a tattle tale tach. I got to about 13 inch lbs.
So now I have a descision to make, if I put back the .001 shim I am above the spec. for the pinion bearings, and If leave it out I am slightly below the spec.
Sometimes you can swap around shims to get different readings, for instance using 2 - .010" shims in place of a .020" shim, will sometimes take up more space than a single .020" will. I need to remove less then .001" though, I tried two combinations before I was happy, first a .010" and a .005" and 4 - .001" shims, that was too loose, worse then before.
So then I used a .010" a .005" and 2 - .001" and then it was good, 18 inch lbs.
Don't ask me why combining several smaller shims adds more than a single shim will, but it does.
It probably would have been fine to leave it at 13, and if I had to chose, I would want it a little loose, instead of too tight.
Now I can pull the yoke off one last time and drive in the pinion seal. And then install the yoke for the last time and I will now use the new pinion nut.
By the way the old inner pinion race fits the seal just right and makes a good tool to drive in the seal without damaging it.
So now that I know the pinion depth is good, I can now set the pinion bearing preload. So out comes the carrier and the pinion gear, and now I can install the shims you see below. There are 2 - .025" shims and 1 - .001" shim, same as what was on the old pinion. And I will install just these parts, leaving out the pinion seal and still using an old pinion nut.
I tighten down the pinion nut checking the turning resistance of the pinion as I go.
If it starts to get too tight before the pinion nut is all the way tight, I will need to stop and add more shims, I don't want to damage the bearings by over tightening.
If there was slop or the pinion turns real easily by hand, I will need to remove shims.
To get it just right, the turning resistance needs to be measured with an inch lb. torque wrench and the spec is 14 to 19 inch lbs.
The first time I did not get hardly any turning resistance when the nut was tight, so I took the pinion back out and removed 1 of the .025" shims, and I installed a .020" shim.
Here's where you need some patience when installing gears. I know i'm gonna mess with this awhile and I also know that the carrier shims are gonna need some changes.
So after that last shim change, I am reading about 20 inch lbs. and the nut is not all the way tight, so I'm gonna have to add a shim. It's close though, so I'm just gonna add a .001" shim.
After adding a .001" shim, I set the blue needle to 0 and then turned the pinion, and blue needle moved to the max resistance I had, sort of like a tattle tale tach. I got to about 13 inch lbs.
So now I have a descision to make, if I put back the .001 shim I am above the spec. for the pinion bearings, and If leave it out I am slightly below the spec.
Sometimes you can swap around shims to get different readings, for instance using 2 - .010" shims in place of a .020" shim, will sometimes take up more space than a single .020" will. I need to remove less then .001" though, I tried two combinations before I was happy, first a .010" and a .005" and 4 - .001" shims, that was too loose, worse then before.
So then I used a .010" a .005" and 2 - .001" and then it was good, 18 inch lbs.
Don't ask me why combining several smaller shims adds more than a single shim will, but it does.
It probably would have been fine to leave it at 13, and if I had to chose, I would want it a little loose, instead of too tight.
Now I can pull the yoke off one last time and drive in the pinion seal. And then install the yoke for the last time and I will now use the new pinion nut.
By the way the old inner pinion race fits the seal just right and makes a good tool to drive in the seal without damaging it.
bobnoxious
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Marion, MA
I am never afraid to let my Pinion Preload end up a little high...if spec is 15-20 lb/in, and I end up with 25, I'm happy.
I'm not getting any come backs for damaged or noisy bearings, and I'm not getting any customers with failed gears due to deflection. Never be afraid to set it slightly tight.
Very nice work and pattern.
I'm not getting any come backs for damaged or noisy bearings, and I'm not getting any customers with failed gears due to deflection. Never be afraid to set it slightly tight.
Very nice work and pattern.
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
I've had 1 comeback that burned up a pinion bearing on a Chrysler 8.25.
That's a crush sleeve design that I think I must have gotten just a little tight. Of course it could have been something else that caused the failure, but it's probably most likely that I had it too tight.
So i'm a little gun shy about bearing preload, but it's good point that if they are too loose, then there can be deflection and that can cause failure too.
That's a crush sleeve design that I think I must have gotten just a little tight. Of course it could have been something else that caused the failure, but it's probably most likely that I had it too tight.
So i'm a little gun shy about bearing preload, but it's good point that if they are too loose, then there can be deflection and that can cause failure too.
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
So now I can set up the backlash and I'll be done. I could feel before when I ran the pattern that the backlash was too tight. I probably only had .001" or .002". Spec is .006" to .010".
So I will need to pull both bearings off the carrier. My Yukon bearing puller is a great tool. I've never damaged a bearing with it, so I don't need to use setup bearings to dial everything in.
Here you see the shims and bearings, what would be great is if I had about a .002" shim on the bolt side of the carrier (left in pic) that I could take out of that side, and then put it into the other side.
But I don't have any shims like that in the pack. I am going to have to change some larger ones for combinations of smaller ones. I'm gonna take out the .005" shim that is in the bolt side, and add just a .001 shim. Then I'll add 2 - .001" shims to the other side.
Theoretically I'm losing .002" of shims and shifting the carrier over away from the pinion .004". But like before, I've found when you combine smaller shims, they take up more space than 1 larger shim of the same thickness will be.
I did that and pressed the bearings back on, spread the case again until the carrier went in with zero clearance (spread it about .016"), installed the carrier and then took pressure off of the spreader. That spreading of the case is what allows me to have a set amount of carrier bearing preload when I release the spreader.
I have a total of .013" backlash, first I set the dial indicator to 0, then I rock the ring gear the other direction against the pinion and measured.013"
So back out comes the carrier, I pull both bearings, and I removed 2 - .001" shims from the tooth side, and installed them on the bolt side, re-installed everything and measured again.
Good, total of .007" backlash
I'll just run the pattern one more time, and I'll check a few different places
around the ring gear.
This one was more work than most, but that's how it goes sometimes.
So I will need to pull both bearings off the carrier. My Yukon bearing puller is a great tool. I've never damaged a bearing with it, so I don't need to use setup bearings to dial everything in.
Here you see the shims and bearings, what would be great is if I had about a .002" shim on the bolt side of the carrier (left in pic) that I could take out of that side, and then put it into the other side.
But I don't have any shims like that in the pack. I am going to have to change some larger ones for combinations of smaller ones. I'm gonna take out the .005" shim that is in the bolt side, and add just a .001 shim. Then I'll add 2 - .001" shims to the other side.
Theoretically I'm losing .002" of shims and shifting the carrier over away from the pinion .004". But like before, I've found when you combine smaller shims, they take up more space than 1 larger shim of the same thickness will be.
I did that and pressed the bearings back on, spread the case again until the carrier went in with zero clearance (spread it about .016"), installed the carrier and then took pressure off of the spreader. That spreading of the case is what allows me to have a set amount of carrier bearing preload when I release the spreader.
I have a total of .013" backlash, first I set the dial indicator to 0, then I rock the ring gear the other direction against the pinion and measured.013"
So back out comes the carrier, I pull both bearings, and I removed 2 - .001" shims from the tooth side, and installed them on the bolt side, re-installed everything and measured again.
Good, total of .007" backlash
I'll just run the pattern one more time, and I'll check a few different places
around the ring gear.
This one was more work than most, but that's how it goes sometimes.
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
Now that the gears are done....
I was able to add some braces and weld up the left side of the truss
I was able to add some braces and weld up the left side of the truss
87xjco said:
Talk about a day late...hahahaha..
T&T Customs will cut a custom truss to the customers specifications if they have the original in file and (the big AND) what you're trying to do is possible.
"THEY" currently have the HD D44 Ford, HP D44 Ford, Rubicon 44, early and late Waggy 44's (difference is offset side), and the 78/79 HP D60 truss. All can be customized if necessary.
If you want to see a picture of the HP HD D44 truss installed on a diff of a
member's rig, check out this post: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=930684&highlight=barney+mobile+upgradesLooks good though Terry. Nice work.
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
DOH............:rattle:
- Location
- Thornton, CO
And this is why Terry does my gear installs. Your sir are the very definition of thorough. P.S. You have mail.
Gravesdiggerxj
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
I saw your idea thread over on rockfrogs. Great work! 
I'm doing the same thing Subscribed
I'm doing the same thing Subscribed
87xjco
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Denver, CO
Gravesdiggerxj said:I saw your idea thread over on rockfrogs. Great work!
Thanks, i've been watching yours, seems like this year there's alot of HP44's being built!
Cruzin Illusions build last year inspired me, and made me feel like a dumbass for building a Waggy 44 the year before.
- Location
- Thornton, CO
87xjco said:
So what you're saying is, I need to build a Hp 60...........
- Location
- Lafayette, CA
More like a 609. :yelclap:91 Jeep Project said:So what you're saying is, I need to build a Hp 60...........
P1atinum
Aerodynamically Challenge
- Location
- Orlando, Florida
Great write up on the install and fab work, this is really sets a good guide to start my build. Now I guess the Waggy 44 in the garage is going to be replaced with the HP 44.
