HHO Gas...this is worth a look into.

[Ecomike]

:yelclap: well spoken even elequent, but it's

:bs:

One hell of snake oil pitch I must admit, LOL.

The energy required to turn (2) H20 into (1)H2 and (2)O2 is the same as the amount of energy it takes to do the reverse, except that there are electrical losses (heat) in one direction, and heat (combustion) losses involved in the other direction.

Remember the three laws of thermodynamics.

You can't win.
You can't break even.
And you can leave the game!

Just thought I would add that although yes energy is used to free the hydrogen and oxygen, more energy is available from the released elements than is needed to release them. Just like in your fuel system where a pump and spark plugs are used to access the energy in gasoline, where more energy is released than used to release it, likewise a small amount of energy is needed to make a lot of energy available. The break in the system is you the user constantly adding either gasoline or water which allows no laws of physics to be broken. I think.

 

[ktwalker01]

http://www.v6f150.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14610 This guy "techmike" has alot of intersting stuff to say about this.

 

[mattbred]

What if one were to run this off of a solar panel that charges an isolated deep cycle? It'd be like a hybrid. When you're not running your jeep, the solar panel would still be charging the battery up..

 

[Ecomike]

What if one were to run this off of a solar panel that charges an isolated deep cycle? It'd be like a hybrid. When you're not running your jeep, the solar panel would still be charging the battery up..

You will need to size a solar panel (watts) based on the typical power consumption of the HHO devices these other guys are using. You could also charge the HHO generator supply battery at home or work off the grid.

 

[mattbred]

You will need to size a solar panel (watts) based on the typical power consumption of the HHO devices these other guys are using. You could also charge the HHO generator supply battery at home or work off the grid.

If someone wants to do an experiment, then simply get a deep cycle battery, isolate it from the rest of your jeep (dont hook it up to your charging system) and just hook it up to your electrolysiser and wire it through a relay whenever your ignition is turned on. Or a button in your jeep.

This way you get the full effect of hydrogen getting shot into your jeep, but it doesn't put a load on your engine. Every time you go home you could hook the battery to a charger, and see what your MPG differences are, if any.

 

[srimes]

http://www.v6f150.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14610 This guy "techmike" has alot of intersting stuff to say about this.

I didn't get too far, but in post #7 he said
"
It's happening in a electrolysis device under the hood. I have a 2 gauge monster wire running from the negative battery terminal to a stainless steel wire wrapped in a coil, mounted in a shatter proof container. Platinum would work better, but it costs 4x as much.

Running a positive charge would release oxygen as well, which would produce water when the two gases formed, defeating the process."

You are not going to split water without a complete electrical circit. And you can't release the hydrogen without releasing the oxygen. This guy is full of it.

Also, you can split them and leave the gasses together. They won't recombine without a spark.

 

[dj99xj]

Not that hauling a heavy 40+ pound lead/acid battery would negate the gains of the hydrogen induction. Plus the weight of the water and components. Plus the $ spent on the battery and parts could be used towards a lighter weight oil in the engine, proper tire pressure and other maintenance issues that would have a much larger return for the $ spent.


*sigh*

 

[falcon556]

http://www.v6f150.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14610 This guy "techmike" has alot of intersting stuff to say about this.

The Hydrogen used to go to the cathode not too long ago, when did that change?
Electrolysis of water used to produce both H2 and O2, his produces H2 only.
Running a positive charge will produce O2 and it will form water?
That's great news! I was concerned that it might not!

He doesn't seem to know what he is talking about, otherwise he is great.

 

[Ecomike]

mattbred,

Are you volunteering???


I am too busy putting the head and manifolds together to put them back on the block right now, LOL.

And yes, mr. techmike is a real snake oil selling artist getting a bunch of yahoos worked up so he can fleece them. No doubt in my mind.

dj99xj,

You are right, but some of us have already done all those things.

If someone wants to do an experiment, then simply get a deep cycle battery, isolate it from the rest of your jeep (dont hook it up to your charging system) and just hook it up to your electrolysiser and wire it through a relay whenever your ignition is turned on. Or a button in your jeep.

This way you get the full effect of hydrogen getting shot into your jeep, but it doesn't put a load on your engine. Every time you go home you could hook the battery to a charger, and see what your MPG differences are, if any.

 

[mattbred]

Psh, think you're busy, I'm swapping an AX15 and NP242 into my XJ! Took out my old shitty Peugeot and my good 231.

I'm also taking lots of pictures and I'm going to make a big writeup on it.

mattbred,

Are you volunteering???


I am too busy putting the head and manifolds together to put them back on the block right now, LOL.

And yes, mr. techmike is a real snake oil selling artist getting a bunch of yahoos worked up so he can fleece them. No doubt in my mind.

dj99xj,

You are right, but some of us have already done all those things.

 

[Ecomike]

I left out the washing machine that just stopped pumping water, the living room ceiling sheetrock that is falling down......:tear:

 

[jeepman121]

Wow, I've really got your brains rattling don't I? Still we have absolutely no proof that it doesn't work, However, there are a few claiming that their friends tried it and it really does work. I guess its possible to say that It might not work in all cars but could work rather great in others._ As for the thermodynamics people...get your books back out and pay attention---WE ARE NOT MOVING THE CAR WITH JUST HYDROGEN!! A small amount of electricity and the baking soda makes hydrogen that increases your gasolines burn or octane rating. The baking soda is like an electrolisis accelerant---

 

[mattbred]

Wow, I've really got your brains rattling don't I? Still we have absolutely no proof that it doesn't work, However, there are a few claiming that their friends tried it and it really does work. I guess its possible to say that It might not work in all cars but could work rather great in others._ As for the thermodynamics people...get your books back out and pay attention---WE ARE NOT MOVING THE CAR WITH JUST HYDROGEN!! A small amount of electricity and the baking soda makes hydrogen that increases your gasolines burn or octane rating. The baking soda is like an electrolisis accelerant---

The laws of thermodynamics stay unchanged. If the Hydrogen did no thing to the gasoline, and the only affect you got was the extra pressure from burning hydrogen (along side with gasoline), you would lose energy and cause a loss in MPG. If it didn't, then you could make a perpetual motion machine etc etc which can't happen.

If it DOES actually increase the burning of gasoline, I still doubt that it would increase it by 50% or even 100% as some people claim. It's worth some testing and scrutiny though.

 

[srimes]

If it DOES actually increase the burning of gasoline, I still doubt that it would increase it by 50% or even 100% as some people claim. It's worth some testing and scrutiny though.

I agree that the claims seem disproportionate. I'd like to see a credible experiment to see the results. And I think Mythbusters could handle it.

50% to 100% is huge, and I don't they h2 + o2 injection would gain that much. But the otto cycle has a peak efficiency of almost 30%, but in practice usually gets 5% to15%, so there is plenty of room for improvement.

 

[Ecomike]

I think one of the things these people have been doing in addition to the HHO feed by itself, is modifying the A/F ratio (O2 sensor and MAP and ECU/PCM changes) to run the engine leaner while adding the HHO gas mixture. I think their thinking is that the HHO feed reduces the peak engine combustion temperature of a lean burn gasoline mixture, thus allowing the engine to run leaner with out burning it up. Don't know if that is right or not.

Diesels of course are an entirely different ball game.

 

[Monkey55]

Still we have absolutely no proof that it doesn't work, However, there are a few claiming that their friends tried it and it really does work.

Why don't you try it and prove others wrong??

E

 

[srimes]

I think one of the things these people have been doing in addition to the HHO feed by itself, is modifying the A/F ratio (O2 sensor and MAP and ECU/PCM changes) to run the engine leaner while adding the HHO gas mixture. I think their thinking is that the HHO feed reduces the peak engine combustion temperature of a lean burn gasoline mixture, thus allowing the engine to run leaner with out burning it up. Don't know if that is right or not.

I think you may be close. Contrary to popular belief, simply running lean will not toast an engine. But too lean and it won't run well at all simply because you won't get good ignition and combustion. This is where h2 may be able to help.

 

[Ecomike]

That reminds me, one of the the gotya problems with just running lean is the NOx emissions go up beyond EPA limits. The NOx emissions go up because of the higher combustion temperatures, IIRC. Also as I recall, the HHO people claim that HHO combustion reduces PEAK combustion temperatures (but does cause a hotter initial flash that improves the base fuel combustion and power yield) which might reduce the NOx formation as the engine is leaned out on the base fuel, A/F ratio.

How far does one have to push the A/F ratio (leaner) to get a 50% improvment in mileage? I doubt it is a simple linear calculation.

Much of the fuel MPG consumption is used in acceleration, which is why stop and go driving cuts fuel mileage roughly by a 1/3, to 1/2 in some cases. The ECU/PCM programs runs the A/F ratio very rich during acceleration. Maybe the HHO allows the acceleration A/F ratio to be tuned way back with out too much loss of power. That could have a huge effect on stop and go city MPGs.

I think you may be close. Contrary to popular belief, simply running lean will not toast an engine. But too lean and it won't run well at all simply because you won't get good ignition and combustion. This is where h2 may be able to help.

 

[kujito]

I'm down to be the test rat. If this damn "stimulus" check ever materializes I'll order one and let y'all know how it goes. Worst case, motor blows and I'm out a $500 heep. Best case, I see 50% gain and get 24 mpg! I'd order one right now, but brokeazz student budget and one payday/month job won't allow it.

 

[kujito]

If it does blow up; anybody ever swap in a 3.9 magnum Dakota motor? Got a 2wd dak just chillin and leakin in the driveway(avg. 21 mpg in that thing).