Here it comes!!

[Coastie]

Why is everyone so afraid of a national helath care system? You have health care through your job right? So will you really be affected by a nationalized system?

Just curious.

Boat you know how your HS gives you a list of say 3-5 doctors you can go to? I am sure you've been to a few of the skeezier doctors we have to go to because these doctors are basically the lowest bidder.... It will be like that for everyone. You won't get a big choice if any choice of doctors you could go to.

Also even if you already have health care you will pay for those that don't. That means everyone, tax payers and non alike.

when you consider a Army heavy armoured division consists of 50,000 troops and support staff then add in family thats a small city.

Small town? I had 20 in my graduating class

 

[Jester99]

Who cares. America is dead now. The rest of the world will follow soon.

 

[Boatwrench]

Boat you know how your HS gives you a list of say 3-5 doctors you can go to? I am sure you've been to a few of the skeezier doctors we have to go to because these doctors are basically the lowest bidder.... It will be like that for everyone. You won't get a big choice if any choice of doctors you could go to.

That's the same as most employer funded health insurance...no different. My wife's plan (Brown & Toland) has a list of doctors to visit. Her dental plan, Denti-Care has the same.

Also even if you already have health care you will pay for those that don't. That means everyone, tax payers and non alike.
I think this is the common misunderstanding about our health care systems today...we already are paying. A National Plan will just allow more people to use preventative rather than urgent/reactive care.

The HS recommended Dental surgeon fixxed a botched root canal from a private dentist through my wife's plan. Yeah it's a hit or miss.


BT---BT---BT

That box has grown bigger! and Redder! Almost covers the whole screen at log on. I figured when I took the latest ALCOAST manadated training it would be dropped off, but no...nothing that logical.

 

[Coastie]

I know it's not that different then what we are paying now. I think most of us would rather not pay for anyone else's medical anything. I did not hurt them or cause them to get sick. I did not impregnate the white trash teenager... so why should I pay for all that? That may sound cold and heartless but others problems shouldn't be mine. Unless I choose for them to be.

That box has grown bigger! and Redder! Almost covers the whole screen at log on. I figured when I took the latest ALCOAST manadated training it would be dropped off, but no...nothing that logical.

Expect 2 boxes sometime in the future!

 

[fscrig75]

Never experienced an Army hospital. Been to Balboa Naval, former Oak Knoll Naval & former San Francisco USPHS hospitals only. Last procedure I had for a skin melenoma (sic) was farmed out through Tri-Care. Folks here also go to Travis, AFB and have good things to say...must just be the Army.

And this is the response that I knew would come, and was waiting for. AF and Naval hospitals deal on a much smaller scale, almost like a private hospitals.

The size of Army hospitals are like city hospitals, if you don't have insurance this is where you go, and the ERs are packed. Good nurses don't work these hospitals because they can not give good patient care. ICU floor at a private hospital 1 to 2 patients 3 max. ICU at a city hospital 4 to 6. Now you to tell me how good the care is going to be.

 

[fscrig75]

...and treated there.

Treated at the city(public) hospital. The private hospital is not treating them, they patch them up and send them over to the City hospital where our tax dollars pay for it.

So your statement saying that everyone hospital is required to treat everyone is right and wrong.

 

[fscrig75]

That's the same as most employer funded health insurance...no different. My wife's plan (Brown & Toland) has a list of doctors to visit. Her dental plan, Denti-Care has the same.

Right but those private insurance companies pay a much higher premium then the Government will. You have Tri-Care, so you know that the Government will only pay a percentage of what the government thinks it should pay for the treatment.

If a dentist charges $100 to drill a cavity, the Fed says that it should only cost $50. Now $50 really isn't that much, but when we start talking about procedures that cost $100K+ and the Fed is saying is should only cost $80K that is a huge difference.

 

[kujito]

One of the scariest things in my eight years in the Navy, was having to go to the dentist/hospital. We referred to them as the "Hobby Shops".
Most of the battalion Corpsmen were outstanding, but the hospital was always an exercise in stupidity. Shoulder scopes usually resulted in the guy getting a medical discharge. That was 10 years ago, but still.

 

[JNickel101]

Why is everyone so afraid of a national helath care system? You have health care through your job right? So will you really be affected by a nationalized system?

Just curious.

Exactly - I have healthcare provided by my job - yet somehow, I still pay medicare/medicaid tax for something I'll NEVER use....

 

[JNickel101]

One of the scariest things in my eight years in the Navy, was having to go to the dentist/hospital. We referred to them as the "Hobby Shops".
Most of the battalion Corpsmen were outstanding, but the hospital was always an exercise in stupidity. Shoulder scopes usually resulted in the guy getting a medical discharge. That was 10 years ago, but still.

x2, the Naval Hospital in Guam was something you tried to avoid at all costs. I've seen the work/result of a Navy Surgeon, no thank you...

and yes, Travis AFB is like the 2nd biggest hospital in the AF, so I'm sure they are fully functional. Most bases though have small clinics that farm you out downtown for anything more than a routine check-up.

Nationalized healtcare isn't the solution - in any way. So you're going to tax us even more, to pay for those who don't pay any taxes, to be able to see a doctor - when if medical insurance wasn't so expensive, they'd be able to afford to see a doctor on their own?

Nationalized healthcare is doing what a lot of doctors do today anyway - "treat the symptoms". So your shoulder hurts? Ok, here's some drugs so it won't feel like it hurts anymore. Forget about SOLVING the problem....WHY does your shoulder hurt?

WHY does healthcare in the US cost so much?

#1, illegals - we're forced to treat EVERYONE
#2, we're a country full of hypochondriacs - everyone thinks they have some kind of problem and need to be seen by a doctor, or need to be on some kind of drug.
#3, we're a country full of unhealthy, overweight people - or people with "bad habits" who are basically paying SOMEONE (like a tobacco company) to kill them. Plain and simple.
and the big one...
#4, MALPRACTICE INSURANCE. For the eleventy billionth time - when people are no longer allowed to sue a Doctor, who, in good faith and honest practice, made a small mistake and the patient is in a bit of pain (probably because they either were too unhealthy and shouldn't have had the surgery to begin with, or because they were a hypochondriac and didn't need the surgery) - they sue the doctor for $400 million dollars for "pain and suffering". Hm....how about we end the dumbass lawsuits, which will end the ridiculous malpractice insurance costs, which will drive down doctors' prices and make health insurance affordable again!!!

So damn simple, yet our government wants to totally overcomplicate the issue and create MORE problems.

 

[Deadman 94 xj]

I see R&D taking a major plunge.

The reason Obama is working so hard so fast is because he knows that his movie star status won't last forever. He can get away with whatever he wants as long as black people still compare him to biblical figures and racist white people kiss his feet in fear of looking like a bigot.

 

[bigalpha]

Isn't your local police force Nationalized? Everyone pays for it, but not everyone uses it.

 

[XJEEPER]

Isn't your local police force Nationalized? Everyone pays for it, but not everyone uses it.

This is your analogy?

My local police Chief answers to the Mayor and City Council and is funded by local tax dollars, which pays for the enforcement of locals laws and protection of local citizens. My taxes are not paying for the law enforcement efforts in your city. Your city's Chief of Police cannot command the level of enforcement of laws that take place in my community.

Unless your local police force is an extension/branch of the US Miltary or the US Goverment, the comparison doesn't work......perhaps you are implying that under Socialism, all police and military are one and the same?

Perhaps, but actually that would be the step that comes after Socialism, called Communism.

Educate yourself regarding the actual workings of Nationalized Healthcare, please.

 

[bigalpha]

Sure, but Everyone in your City pays for the protection of your local population; even if everyone does not "use" the police.

The basic principle is the same.

 

[XJEEPER]

Sure, but Everyone in your City pays for the protection of your local population; even if everyone does not "use" the police.

The basic principle is the same.

If you say so.....

But what if I need/want a higher level of protection? I then pay for private security, but under your analogy I will still have to pay for the police, whether I'm using them or not. Just because I'm forced to pay into Medicare and SS, doesn't mean I like it. I think they are both theft by deception.

This is exactly my beef with Nationalized Healthcare. Your theory is, that just because we've accepted a similar model in one area of our lives, then it should be a model that is accepted in all areas of our lives? Lay down and take what is given to you, or else?

See, the police are there to protect my rights and freedoms, per the Constitution. Nationalized Healthcare actually takes away my rights and freedoms.

This is why your analogy is flawed, just like the nationalization of healthcare.

 

[bigalpha]

Yes, if you want high level of protection, you can hire your own security force to escort you around. You still end up paying for the public protection, though, through taxes and such.

At no time did I say we should adopt this model for all areas of our lives. I was merely pointing out a similarity between the two. You are quick to make assumptions.

Whether or not they protect your rights/freedoms doesn't matter. The basic principle is the same. That's all I was saying.

You are paying for police (for yourself or others) whether or not you "use" them.
You are paying for healthcare (for yourself and others) whether or not you use it.

 

[wolfpackjeeper]

See, the police are there to protect my rights and freedoms, per the Constitution.

Actually, the police are here to enforce the laws and provide public security. They are not here to provide security to me or to protect me in any personal sense. In the bigger picture, by arresting killers and rapists they are helping to protect me, but if I am attacked the chance that an officer will be there to help is slim to nill.

which is exactly what you will get under a national healthcare. I believe quality will go down.

 

[XJEEPER]

Originally Posted by XJEEPER
Here's a start....removal of personal freedom. How about ignoring the Constitutional process and failure to accurately represent the Will of Some Ofthe People?

Boat, please explain in detail, why a nationalized healthcare plan will be better for me,
It's not about you or me, it's about the health of the country

will not limit or reduce my access to quality healthcare,
Your access (and mine too) is already reduced because of over crowded emergency rooms. Last year I took my mother who had a severe gash on her leg to an emergency room on a Sunday for care. She is 80. I had her sit in the car until the facility was ready to recieve her, didn't want her exposed to all the people who were there with colds and flu like symptoms becuase they didn't have insurance to go to a doctor, other than an emergency room. National Health Care would allow these un-insured people to use preventative health care and alternatives to hospital emergency rooms. Hospitals and Healthcare Centers that must treat these people need to get paid some how, so pass the costs on to treatments paid by those insured, and that drives up rates of Health Insurance. So you and me that have either self purchased or employer provided group health insurance plans pay higher premiums.

access to new treatments
access would only be limited to what your current policy states now, or would you drop your current plan and get onboard the National Plan?

or increase my taxes. It may increase your taxes, but should lower your premiums as the charges to your insurance company would be less. In the end YOU AND ME will be paying one way or the other. Higher premiums or higher taxes. A wash? Not necessarily....better access to Preventative Medicine reduces overall medical costs

*******************************************************************************************************************************

Sorry, where I live we don't have overcrowded emergency rooms. Perhaps this is the collateral effect of states harboring illegals, that have become a huge burden on the healthcare system. Simple solution is not to screw with, and screw up my healthcare, it's to enforce the existing laws and borders. I clearly understand that it's not all illegals that cause the costs to increase, but add them to thosewho are on welfare, by choice.

Perhaps you'll be OK with an IOU when you need government controlled healthcare?

Please, actually read what's in the Stumulus Plan regarding the modifications that it will make to our healthcare system and the restrictions that it places on research and development, plus the freedoms that are removed from physicians to practice privately. It ain't all bubblegum and lollypops, our government is running a racket.......

 

[XJEEPER]

Yes, if you want high level of protection, you can hire your own security force to escort you around. You still end up paying for the public protection, though, through taxes and such.

FALSE..... the fact that you are overlooking, is that under the recently passed legislation, the level of quality of public protection(we're actually talking healthcare here) will go down and I won't be able to hire my own security (private physician), because this type of practice will not be allowed, per the US Government.

You are paying for police (for yourself or others) whether or not you "use" them.
The fact that they are on duty provides value that I am willing to pay for.
You are paying for healthcare (for yourself and others) whether or not you use it.
Paying for someone elses healthcare provides me no value, therefore, I am against paying for it. The plan also decreases the level of quality of my healthcare, of which I am clearly against.

I suggest that you actual read the Healthcare related sections of the Stimulus Plan, because they contradict your position.

 

[Deadman 94 xj]

I have VA benefits for life. I wonder if I'll be able to opt out when the time comes. Doubt it.