Guns

[mcantar18c]

When I sell my truck I was planning on taking a little bit of the money and buying a Benelli M1 with a pistol grip that I saw at a hunting store for just over $500.
But playing with shotguns, rifles, and handguns all day yesterday, has pushed me more towards getting a rifle instead. I've narrowed it down to 2 options... and I can't decide. Both will have similar add ons and whatnot so that isn't being taken into consideration.

The AK-47 is simple, easy, accurate when taken care of, and I've found plenty for $500 and under for the whole package. 7.62x39 is a good round IMO, it has a good amount of power behind it but doesn't have a whole lot of kick, and isn't quite as expensive as the 7.62 NATO or Russian are.

The AR-15 is... the AR-15. Mine would be more of an M4 style. They're accurate, and .223 isn't exactly my favorite round but it is pretty nice to shoot. I'd much rather have an American product than any kind of foreign one ('cept for HK), and I do love the look and feel of the M4 vs the AK, but these cost quite a bit more than the AKs do... I'm seeing lowers for around $300 and uppers for about $500.

Opinions, preferences, comments?

 

[jimgrms]

I think you should get a soft bb gun to start with :>{)))

 

[scottydoes]

500 for the binneli is a good price. if you have no home defense get a shotgun or handgun first. rifles aren't really ideal. glocks or a springfield xd would be a good starter handgun, are easily concealable, and can easilly be found in the 500 to 600 price range. i CC my XD40 and love it.

 

[daltonxj2001]

The AK is a superior weapon to the AR no matter what you see on TV. So says every Marine I talked with, personally I'd rather have the AR .223 round. I don't know why. I shot my first buck with a bolt action .222. I guess it comes down to personal preference. You need a jeep first.

 

[hurley842002]

The AK is a superior weapon to the AR no matter what you see on TV.

Superior in what fashion? Accuracy? Range? Reliability?

As far as i'm concerned the AK is NOT superior to the AR. I think they both have there positives and negatives, but I would never say one is outright superior to the other one.

 

[planefixer]

Get an SA58 (FAL)- I love mine.

 

[DJManche]

Superior in what fashion? Accuracy? Range? Reliability?

As far as i'm concerned the AK is NOT superior to the AR. I think they both have there positives and negatives, but I would never say one is outright superior to the other one.

Correct , while both weapons have there ups and downs , its more about personal preference and situational aptitude . For having some fun the AK does
the job for people who don't have the license for a fully auto assault rifle .

However the .223 doesn't have the stopping power , but performs flawlessly under burst or full auto .

My preference was the the new 6.8mm round , retro fitted AR and SCAR weapons have performed very well , still very accurate , high rounds per sec.
and has arguably better stopping power that the .308 .
The only downfall to gas operated weapons is you have to keep them clean .
But I'll take that over anything . Older M16 A2's had problems but the newer
ones have seemed to be better .

That being said , allot of it has to do more with the quality of the weapon you buy , I've had shitty AR's and well built AK's and vice versa .

 

[mcantar18c]

500 for the binneli is a good price. if you have no home defense get a shotgun or handgun first. rifles aren't really ideal. glocks or a springfield xd would be a good starter handgun, are easily concealable, and can easilly be found in the 500 to 600 price range. i CC my XD40 and love it.

Yeah $500 for a Benelli is what caught my eye in the first place. I ship out in October so I won't be needing anything for me as far as home defense goes, and my girl has a little .22 pistol that seems just about perfect for her... she's kinda smaller and as much as she enjoys shooting 12ga, it damn near knocks her on her ass. Whatever I buy now is intended as more of an "I'm bored lets go to the range" thing.
Getting a little off topic a bit... my buddy brought his new XD yesterday for it's first time out, and it's definitely a nice little compact but I just didn't like the feel of it, it was so small it just felt awkward and the trigger pull seemed too high IMO. I'm not much of a Glock fan either. My first pick for home defense for when I come home from the military is a Saiga semi-auto 12ga.

I think you should get a soft bb gun to start with :>{)))

Lol I started with that when I was 10.

The AK is a superior weapon to the AR no matter what you see on TV.

It is and it isn't. Both have their pros and cons, but I wouldn't say one is flat out superior than the other. For reliability, I'd take the AK... accuracy, I'd go with the AR... stopping power, the AK wins... long range shooting I'd go with the AR.

Superior in what fashion? Accuracy? Range? Reliability?

As far as i'm concerned the AK is NOT superior to the AR. I think they both have there positives and negatives, but I would never say one is outright superior to the other one.

^What he said.

Get an SA58 (FAL)- I love mine.

Lol I would if it dropped the $1900 price tag down a little.

Correct , while both weapons have there ups and downs , its more about personal preference and situational aptitude . For having some fun the AK does
the job for people who don't have the license for a fully auto assault rifle .

However the .223 doesn't have the stopping power , but performs flawlessly under burst or full auto .

My preference was the the new 6.8mm round , retro fitted AR and SCAR weapons have performed very well , still very accurate , high rounds per sec.
and has arguably better stopping power that the .308 .
The only downfall to gas operated weapons is you have to keep them clean .
But I'll take that over anything . Older M16 A2's had problems but the newer
ones have seemed to be better .

That being said , allot of it has to do more with the quality of the weapon you buy , I've had shitty AR's and well built AK's and vice versa .

I have a clean record and got into the military just fine, so I shouldn't have an issue getting a Class III.
I don't have any personal experience with the 6.8, although I've heard good things about it. I'm sure 6.8 gets pretty pricey though.

As for the quality, I'd only buy KA AR lowers, they cost a little more but I know exactly what I'm getting... might consider Bushmaster too. There are so many companies that manufacture the AK though that I wouldn't know where to start... I've heard that the German ones are good. Either way, I first need to decide WHAT rifle to get, then I can figure out which manufacturer to go with.


I'm leaning a little towards the AR... I've had some range time with it but not enough to count for much, and owning one would let me really get some hands-on experience with it before I ship out. I'd been planning on getting one later on anyway, but didn't really think it'd be this soon.
But then again, the AK is half the price and is a pretty good rifle too...

 

[scottydoes]

saigas are cool shotguns no doubt, however, they are pretty problematic, and can get expensive fix. i haven't seen a saiga that could cycle very consistently for more than a couple hundred rounds. bennelis on the other hand are pretty worry free.
if you really want an AR, why not build it yourself? i just built my first lower and it really helped my understanding of the weapon. i bought a stripped lower from spikes tactical, and a smokin deal on a lower parts kit from palmetto state armory.

 

[scottydoes]

the partskit comes with a cmmg trigger group, magpul stock, grip and trigger guard for 150 shipped. all together i'm only in it a little less than 300, not too bad for a good lower. that includes my ffl transfer too.

 

[mcantar18c]

That's a pretty good idea, and a pretty good price for what it is. If I go with the AR (still leanin towards it) then I'll probably go that route.

As for the Saiga... my first experience with it was yesterday. It went through 5 or 6 10-round mags of slugs just fine, but stovepiped 1-3 shells per mag with the birdshot. I know the Benelli would be worry free (as would a Rem 870, my favorite pump) but I really like how fast you can fire off a few shells without having to pump or reload, and how big the mags are in the Saiga (we had a 10 shell magazine and a drum mag that held a shit ton). In a home defense situation you shouldn't need more than one or two shells, but it's nice to know you've got that entire clip ready to fire off and can do it without much effort.
Another one I was looking at for home defense was the Taurus Judge... Amy wouldn't have much trouble using one of those. Use 4.10 bird as the first load to stun the attacker, and fill the rest with .45 long to stop him.


ANYWAY... I'm leaning towards the AR... Troy, maybe you can chime in on this? I seem to remember you being pretty proud of that AR of yours.

 

[5-90]

The AK-74 (and later AK74 in 5.45x39mm) is pretty much a Mk 1 Mod 0 brick - plenty reliable, and "combat accurate." You're not going to win any competitions with the thing, but it's useful and can keep the pot boiling. The 7.62x39 round is useful, and the ComBloc surplus and commercial ammo isn't bad and gets along well with the AK action (it was designed for use with steel cases and steel jackets anyhow.)

However, there's not much you can do with the thing.

The AR platform (AR10 and AR15) are both highly adaptable. The AR10 is essentially an oversize AR15 (.308 native calibre, instead of .223,) and is a bit more rare - but Eugene Stoner's original AR10 design ran through .30-06 like poporn anyhow. Neither is going to have any issue.

The primary strength of the AR15 is that it can readily be a weapons system. Once you have the lower receiver group set up and running smooth (which isn't at all difficult,) you can have upper receiver assemblies - assembled and tested - shipped right to your door. Why is this an advantage?

- Both sights are mounted on the upper. Zero and forget.
- The scope, if desired, is mounted on the upper. Same deal.
- You can have a "shorty" upper (if I'm reading your location right, you can even use a genuine M4 arrangement on approval of a Form 4 - and have something like a 10" carbine barrel...) have a 16.5" general purpose tube, and even a 20" or 22" long-range target barrel.
- .22LR conversion kits are readily available, and they can be used with the stock .223 upper half (so you can use it as a cheap-O plinker, and shoot up a ten-dollar five hundred-round brick of ammo, instead of paying five bucks for twenty commercial .223 rounds.)
- Upper halves are available in most auto pistol calibres.
- Nearly any rifle round that has an overall length of 2.25" or less can run through the AR action as well - just change the upper. You can probably get uppers in .17HMR by now, I've seen plenty in 7.62x39, and there are even short straight-wall uppers in large calibres (.458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf both come readily to mind.) You can also get an upper in the smaller Whisper calibres - I rather like the .300 Whisper. It's based on a .223 case, necked up and blown out to take a .308" pill, loaded to 1000-1050 fps. It was designed as a short-range suppressed round, and can be very accurate! (The first time I saw one, the owner told me it was a "tackdriver." He gave me ten rounds to fire. I put six in the X ring at 100y, then shot the four thumbtacks that held up his target. NICE. WANT.)

Given a choice between the two, I'd take the AR over the AK, although I'm quite familiar with both. The AR has plenty of advantages over the AK!

The only thing to really watch out for is that you don't use steel-cased ammo in the AR. It was designed for brass cases, and the steel cases (like Wolf ammo used to use) are lacquered to prevent rusting. The lacquer gets hot and deposits in the chamber. Best case is that you've got to scrub the crap out, and it's work. Worst case is you get a case stuck in the chamber that you can't clear in the field. Yech.

In fact, given the advantages, I'd probably be willing to pay a couple hundred extra for the AR! Surplus magazines are cheap, and surplus ammo is comparable to production ComBloc AK ammo (but the MILSURP AR ammo offers reloadable cases, and the AR can be very responsive to handloads as well!)

Mikhail Kalashnikov did a very good job designing a "nearly soldier-proof" battle rifle (Misha was an infantryman, but Gene Stoner was a Marine...) but the aftermarket for the AR is a couple orders of magnitude more extensive than that for the AK.

Which is why I built an M4gery (I can add other calibres/configurations later, without having to go through an FFL.)

 

[jeepdude25]

The AK-74 (and later AK74 in 5.45x39mm) is pretty much a Mk 1 Mod 0 brick - plenty reliable, and "combat accurate." You're not going to win any competitions with the thing, but it's useful and can keep the pot boiling. The 7.62x39 round is useful, and the ComBloc surplus and commercial ammo isn't bad and gets along well with the AK action (it was designed for use with steel cases and steel jackets anyhow.)

However, there's not much you can do with the thing.

The AR platform (AR10 and AR15) are both highly adaptable. The AR10 is essentially an oversize AR15 (.308 native calibre, instead of .223,) and is a bit more rare - but Eugene Stoner's original AR10 design ran through .30-06 like poporn anyhow. Neither is going to have any issue.

The primary strength of the AR15 is that it can readily be a weapons system. Once you have the lower receiver group set up and running smooth (which isn't at all difficult,) you can have upper receiver assemblies - assembled and tested - shipped right to your door. Why is this an advantage?

- Both sights are mounted on the upper. Zero and forget.
- The scope, if desired, is mounted on the upper. Same deal.
- You can have a "shorty" upper (if I'm reading your location right, you can even use a genuine M4 arrangement on approval of a Form 4 - and have something like a 10" carbine barrel...) have a 16.5" general purpose tube, and even a 20" or 22" long-range target barrel.
- .22LR conversion kits are readily available, and they can be used with the stock .223 upper half (so you can use it as a cheap-O plinker, and shoot up a ten-dollar five hundred-round brick of ammo, instead of paying five bucks for twenty commercial .223 rounds.)
- Upper halves are available in most auto pistol calibres.
- Nearly any rifle round that has an overall length of 2.25" or less can run through the AR action as well - just change the upper. You can probably get uppers in .17HMR by now, I've seen plenty in 7.62x39, and there are even short straight-wall uppers in large calibres (.458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf both come readily to mind.) You can also get an upper in the smaller Whisper calibres - I rather like the .300 Whisper. It's based on a .223 case, necked up and blown out to take a .308" pill, loaded to 1000-1050 fps. It was designed as a short-range suppressed round, and can be very accurate! (The first time I saw one, the owner told me it was a "tackdriver." He gave me ten rounds to fire. I put six in the X ring at 100y, then shot the four thumbtacks that held up his target. NICE. WANT.)

Given a choice between the two, I'd take the AR over the AK, although I'm quite familiar with both. The AR has plenty of advantages over the AK!

The only thing to really watch out for is that you don't use steel-cased ammo in the AR. It was designed for brass cases, and the steel cases (like Wolf ammo used to use) are lacquered to prevent rusting. The lacquer gets hot and deposits in the chamber. Best case is that you've got to scrub the crap out, and it's work. Worst case is you get a case stuck in the chamber that you can't clear in the field. Yech.

In fact, given the advantages, I'd probably be willing to pay a couple hundred extra for the AR! Surplus magazines are cheap, and surplus ammo is comparable to production ComBloc AK ammo (but the MILSURP AR ammo offers reloadable cases, and the AR can be very responsive to handloads as well!)

Mikhail Kalashnikov did a very good job designing a "nearly soldier-proof" battle rifle (Misha was an infantryman, but Gene Stoner was a Marine...) but the aftermarket for the AR is a couple orders of magnitude more extensive than that for the AK.

Which is why I built an M4gery (I can add other calibres/configurations later, without having to go through an FFL.)

:yap::yap::yap::yap: really dude??

 

[mcantar18c]

:yap::yap::yap::yap: really dude??

What? I found what he said kinda useful... pushed me a little more towards the AR.

 

[scottydoes]

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/598.php

there is the link for the parts kit i used, when i bought it though, they were offering the CMMG trigger group. daniel defense is pretty good stuff too though IMO.

also, you will need a few small tools to assemble a lower, or access to somebody that has them. you will need a roll pin starter, and some small, i mean real small punches. there is also this tool for the detents, dunno if it has a specific name though. the assembly isn't tough at all, i used directions i found on ar15.com. it was my first, and it only took about 30 minutes. my buddy that helped me can bang them out in like 15 though.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

 

[jeepdude25]

What? I found what he said kinda useful... pushed me a little more towards the AR.

Its useful I dont disagree on that. I just think all this gun talk should be on another forum besides a Jeep Cherokee forum. I dont mind the stories every once in awhile but Gun threads are never ending, everyone has likes and dislikes. Then people start up new arguments and yada yada. I dont care that its here it just funny to me how people rant and rave over guns thats all. To me if you want to buy a gun then you need to do your own research and buy what fits your needs or what your going to be using that gun for.

 

[mcantar18c]

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/598.php

there is the link for the parts kit i used, when i bought it though, they were offering the CMMG trigger group. daniel defense is pretty good stuff too though IMO.

also, you will need a few small tools to assemble a lower, or access to somebody that has them. you will need a roll pin starter, and some small, i mean real small punches. there is also this tool for the detents, dunno if it has a specific name though. the assembly isn't tough at all, i used directions i found on ar15.com. it was my first, and it only took about 30 minutes. my buddy that helped me can bang them out in like 15 though.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

Sweet, I'll definitely look at that page again when it comes time to spend the $$. Thanks for the link!

Its useful I dont disagree on that. I just think all this gun talk should be on another forum besides a Jeep Cherokee forum. I dont mind the stories every once in awhile but Gun threads are never ending, everyone has likes and dislikes. Then people start up new arguments and yada yada. I dont care that its here it just funny to me how people rant and rave over guns thats all. To me if you want to buy a gun then you need to do your own research and buy what fits your needs or what your going to be using that gun for.

Yeah, I see your point. But really, so much shit gets posted up here, especially in this chapter, that has nothing to do with Jeeps... and everybody likes talking guns lol. Hell, on the powerstroke forum I'm on, we have a sub forum of nothing but gun talk. And this is my research :gee:

 

[scottydoes]

Its useful I dont disagree on that. I just think all this gun talk should be on another forum besides a Jeep Cherokee forum. I dont mind the stories every once in awhile but Gun threads are never ending, everyone has likes and dislikes. Then people start up new arguments and yada yada. I dont care that its here it just funny to me how people rant and rave over guns thats all. To me if you want to buy a gun then you need to do your own research and buy what fits your needs or what your going to be using that gun for.

guns and 4x4's go hand and hand. i would be willing to bet a majority of the folks on here are gun owners/enthusiasts. if you don't wnat to read a bunch of gun talk, don't open a thread called GUNS.

 

[5-90]

Its useful I dont disagree on that. I just think all this gun talk should be on another forum besides a Jeep Cherokee forum. I dont mind the stories every once in awhile but Gun threads are never ending, everyone has likes and dislikes. Then people start up new arguments and yada yada. I dont care that its here it just funny to me how people rant and rave over guns thats all. To me if you want to buy a gun then you need to do your own research and buy what fits your needs or what your going to be using that gun for.

Neither ranting nor raving - just presenting information so he can make (I hope) a more fully-informed decision, telling him what I ended up deciding, and why.

I've nothing against the AK at all - although watch the source countries (Central European units are universally good; with Polish, Hungarian, or Roumanian being about the best. Don't bother with Norinco - the Chinese still can't heat-treat worth a damn...)

But, since I spent a few years working at a gun range, I feel that I'm reasonably well-informed on the subject, and I wanted to help.

Hell, just because I've been a 1911 man for the last thirty years (since I was a kid) doesn't mean that I'll try to talk you out of that Glock. I had one, a G19. It wasn't a bad pistol - it just didn't fit me or my wants and needs. I happen to like having a chunk of steel wrapped in my paw. (I probably will try to talk you out of an M92, tho. Just because the DoD likes it doesn't make it any damned good - the reason we use the 9x19 as a standard-issue round is because we were the last NATO member nation who didn't. The .45 is superior, the 9mm fared badly against the .38 Special it was being evaluated to replace 100 years ago! If you want a hicap double-stack, get a .40. It's got useful power, and the general-issue JTC pill is an effective profile.)

 

[eflores]

every time i hear ppl go back and forth about the AK and AR i find the need to reference a famous Nicolas Cage Quote. now mind you i own an AR15 but i would love to have a Kalashnikov

Of all the weapons in the vast Soviet arsenal nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947, more commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the worlds most popular assault rifle, a weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple nine pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood, it doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It will fire whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy to use even a child could use it, and they often do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin, Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars.