Gun Control: RTC VS non-RTC crime rates

[JoesXJ]

I can assure you that Madera County will issue a ccw, got mine last June.

 

[rockwerks]

For a CCW in AZ I need a one day 40.00 class. 60.00 to ATF and a gun would also help

 

[thebluebuffalo]

i carry every where i go. sig p220, sig p245, s&w .38 special, or karh mk9 depending on what i'm wearing and where i'm going. on road trips i keep an ar pistol in the trunk.

 

[rockwerks]

just found thiload graph for the maks. all the available rounds and custom loads

http://www.victorinc.com/9x18mm.html

 

[Kejtar]

just found thiload graph for the maks. all the available rounds and custom loads

http://www.victorinc.com/9x18mm.html

OK, that's all and good but let me ask you the following question:
1. Are you planning to reload?
2. If so are you going to trust your reloads for SD purposes?
3. If you are going to buy custom loads did you look into how much it's going to cost you? To stay proficient with a firearm you have to practice which means you have to shoot which means you have to have ammo.

.45 is .45. 10mm was a solution to a non existant problem. .40 was a result of a lawsuit causef by a weak armed cadet @ FBI and 10mm. Everything else is .45 set on stun.

 

[rockwerks]

OK, that's all and good but let me ask you the following question:
1. Are you planning to reload?
2. If so are you going to trust your reloads for SD purposes?
3. If you are going to buy custom loads did you look into how much it's going to cost you? To stay proficient with a firearm you have to practice which means you have to shoot which means you have to have ammo.

.45 is .45. 10mm was a solution to a non existant problem. .40 was a result of a lawsuit causef by a weak armed cadet @ FBI and 10mm. Everything else is .45 set on stun.

yes planning on reloading, My dad taught me many, many years ago, and Id trust any reload as well as Id trust any store bought. That all being said I can buy 1000 rounds of JHP in Mak for under 160.00, for that I can practice alot. How much is cheap .45?

 

[5-90]

OK, that's all and good but let me ask you the following question:
1. Are you planning to reload?
2. If so are you going to trust your reloads for SD purposes?
3. If you are going to buy custom loads did you look into how much it's going to cost you? To stay proficient with a firearm you have to practice which means you have to shoot which means you have to have ammo.

.45 is .45. 10mm was a solution to a non existant problem. .40 was a result of a lawsuit causef by a weak armed cadet @ FBI and 10mm. Everything else is .45 set on stun.

".45 set on stun" - I like that.

However, let me say that it is not RPT not recommended to handload for self-defense! The argument can (and has!) been made that you've loaded rounds to cause more potential for wounding than factory ammo.

If you want to find a "less lethal" option, get a 12 gage and find LL ammo. Or, get a stick or a baseball bat.

Using handloads for practise isn't a bad idea - or for competition, or for hunting. However, no matter how meticulously you follow a formula for a handload, and no matter what you design the round to do, the opposition's lawyer (I'll damn near guarantee that you're going to have trouble...) is going to argue that you've tried to design the round to be even more malicious than factory ammo, and odds are even or better that the judge will listen to that nonsense - especially if it's a civil trial.

Stick to factory loads for self-defense.

 

[rockwerks]

".45 set on stun" - I like that.

However, let me say that it is not RPT not recommended to handload for self-defense! The argument can (and has!) been made that you've loaded rounds to cause more potential for wounding than factory ammo.

If you want to find a "less lethal" option, get a 12 gage and find LL ammo. Or, get a stick or a baseball bat.

Using handloads for practise isn't a bad idea - or for competition, or for hunting. However, no matter how meticulously you follow a formula for a handload, and no matter what you design the round to do, the opposition's lawyer (I'll damn near guarantee that you're going to have trouble...) is going to argue that you've tried to design the round to be even more malicious than factory ammo, and odds are even or better that the judge will listen to that nonsense - especially if it's a civil trial.

Stick to factory loads for self-defense.

Im sure I would, but the question remains you much for 1000 rounds of .45

 

[goodburbon]

the opposition's lawyer (I'll damn near guarantee that you're going to have trouble...) is going to argue that you've tried to design the round to be even more malicious than factory ammo, and odds are even or better that the judge will listen to that nonsense - especially if it's a civil trial.

I'm a bit confused on this one "more malicious"? You're shooting the sonofabitch, not cutting his hair. Its a defense situation, the #1 goal is to get out alive. "Neutralize the threat" is the name of the game, not "neutralize threat while inflicting as little harm as possible".

 

[Kejtar]

Im sure I would, but the question remains you much for 1000 rounds of .45

I admit it: more. IIRC it's ~$230 for a 1000 rounds.

 

[Kejtar]

".45 set on stun" - I like that.

Haven't heard that before? I wish I could take credit for it, but unfortunately I can't.

However, let me say that it is not RPT not recommended to handload for self-defense! The argument can (and has!) been made that you've loaded rounds to cause more potential for wounding than factory ammo.
...............
Using handloads for practise isn't a bad idea - or for competition, or for hunting. However, no matter how meticulously you follow a formula for a handload, and no matter what you design the round to do, the opposition's lawyer (I'll damn near guarantee that you're going to have trouble...) is going to argue that you've tried to design the round to be even more malicious than factory ammo, and odds are even or better that the judge will listen to that nonsense - especially if it's a civil trial.

YUP. At the very end you sadly have to consider courts. You might live in a state where rules are better but what happens if you travel?

 

[buschwhaked]

x2 US military went to 9mm to standardize with NATO and there is talk about going back to .45ACP.

I might be wrong on this, but the reason NATO went with the smaller rounds (9mm/5.56mm) is because of it's ability to wound vs. kill. The theory is, in a conventional conflict (i.e-fighting Cold War Russia in a non-nuclear conflict), wounding an enemy soldier actually removes more soldiers from the battlefield than killing him. If a soldier is killed, his body can be left in place and recovered after the battle.

The Russians, just like the Americans (though not to as serious of a degree) will not leave a wounded soldier on the battlefield to die. Therefore, men must be removed from the fight in order to move the wounded to the rear for treatment. If a soldier is completely incapcitated it will take at least two soldiers to carry him any significant distance. So this, in effect (although termporarily) doubles or triples the amount of combat power lost.

I believe in the right to carry, but probably not to the degree that others posting on this forum are. But keep in mind that most of the non-RTC states have a higher population concentration which has a significant impact on crime rates. The worlds population doubles every 43 years, and this is a real problem for places like the UK because they're a frikin island.

To point out these statistics as proof that the RTC results in a reduction of violent crime fails to look at the whole picture.

 

[HotwiredXJ]

I might be wrong on this, but the reason NATO went with the smaller rounds (9mm/5.56mm) is because of it's ability to wound vs. kill. The theory is, in a conventional conflict (i.e-fighting Cold War Russia in a non-nuclear conflict), wounding an enemy soldier actually removes more soldiers from the battlefield than killing him. If a soldier is killed, his body can be left in place and recovered after the battle.

To point out these statistics as proof that the RTC results in a reduction of violent crime fails to look at the whole picture.

I am not sure if that is speculation or not. The 5.56 was designed to tear a gash in the torso upon entry, tumble along and take out as many organs as it can. It doesn't do it very well, in fact, it just sorta leaves a little .22 hole, but that was the purpose. The Russians designed an AK to fire a very simular round, this was during Vietnam war, it wasn't as effective as the 7.62x39, but if it worked for US, then it would work for them(at least that is what they thought)
The reason the US switch to the m-16 from the M-14 was political/good old boy deal making. The M-14 was and is still a better rifle, and the 7.62x51 is more powerful, and more deadly then the 5.56. The current M-4, however is a much better urban combat rifle due to it's size(smaller for close quarter combat) then the m-16 or the m-14.

I don't think that any country employees the maim rather then kill policy. I carry, and I can tell you that if my life is in immediate danger, I will not miss, I will not hesitate, and I sure as hell will not maim.

 

[Capt. Nemo]

I can assure you that Madera County will issue a ccw, got mine last June.

That's great. Really. But it goes along with what we've been saying - California CCW's are really only issued (IF issued at all) in counties where the population is very little. Madera County has a population of approximately 150,000, or roughly the population of a 1/4 mile radius of my house. The chances of you actually needing to use your weapon are slim to none (I know, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it...) - and the state knows that.

 

[Kejtar]

That's great. Really. But it goes along with what we've been saying - California CCW's are really only issued (IF issued at all) in counties where the population is very little.

Explain Orange County then? San Bernardino? Riverside?

I know, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

AMEN

and the state knows that.

Well.. the state is not shall issue for other reasons... they don't care about common joe. Pelosi is anti CCW and anti gun (Ok I know I"m oversimplifying but for the sake of discussion it's close enough) and yet she carries.... explain that one to me.

 

[5-90]

I'm a bit confused on this one "more malicious"? You're shooting the sonofabitch, not cutting his hair. Its a defense situation, the #1 goal is to get out alive. "Neutralize the threat" is the name of the game, not "neutralize threat while inflicting as little harm as possible".

It's a product of the same mentality that now requires "CAUTION: Contents are Extremely Hot!" on coffee cups. I'm not arguing with you - if I'm going to shoot some silly bastid, I'm fully planning on shooting him dead and putting an extra in the brainpan as I go by to make sure he doesn't "come back to life" on me.

I don't fire warning shots - "I have a gun pointed at you" is a warning. If I'm going to shoot you, I'm going to do my level damndest to kill you outright.

I don't see the problem. I also placed well in Applied Logic. Apparently, lawyers have not - and I think that's most of the issue. However, it has happened before (because of some ultraliberal lawyers,) and it's likely to happen again.

 

[Capt. Nemo]

Explain Orange County then? San Bernardino? Riverside

I'm not saying they don't issue at all, but that it's near impossible to get them in the more populous counties. I'm sure they're not just handing them out down there.

At any rate, I think we'd all agree that California is ridiculous when it comes to anything gun related.

 

[CharlesS]

Speaking as a resident of San Diego, CA; it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to acquire a CCW.... Even the people that carry large sums of money.... have problems acquiring one...
Generally the easiest way to acquire a CCW is to KNOW SOMEONE otherwise you stand a better chance of getting hit by a bolt of lightning....!!!
Recently visited Texas and Florida....; while there I investigated what was required to acquire a CCW. Both states seem to have the same requirements....; valid DL, local residential address, no criminal record and a Handgun Safety Course is preferred.
You can either have a loaded gun on your person; carried out of sight (ie. under jacket, sweater or shirt) or in the glove compartment or rear window gun rack.
California has entirely too many conservative liberals.... IE. Boxer and Feinstein.

THE FLACK JACKET IS ON !!!

 

[Kejtar]

Yup... you're right SD is not easy at the moment. But I believe you're up gor a change in the Sheriff's Department which might have some effect on the issue.

 

[HotwiredXJ]

I agree with you, if you think it is bad now!!! Wait until this election is over. If you don't already have a CCW or a Carry Permit(grin) and own a firearm, you may as well go buy a sling shot, cause you ain't getting one.