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Gun Control: RTC VS non-RTC crime rates

Capt. Nemo said:
I think it's ironic that two of the most outspoken and seemingly knowledgeable people on this subject (Kejtar and 5-90) are from a state that makes it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to obtain a CCW permit. Not knocking anyone, just an observation...
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Heh. As I've said so often, I'm not "from" California - being a Californian is a temporary inconvenience. I'm a transplant - and I don't identify myself as a California, so much as a "displaced and expatriated American."

You are probably more conscious of your "rights" when they're taken away from you (after all, if they're truly rights, can they be taken away? It's more like a "privilege" than a "right" anymore...) Goes with "You don't know what you've got until it's gone." I'm mildly surprised that some yoyo in Sacramento hasn't decided to try to ban knives again - some years back, they wanted to ban all knives with a blade over two inches long. Yes, including steak knives, table knives, butter knives, ... Dumb.
 
Capt. Nemo said:
I'm sure. Nearly impossible.
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OK, here's the deal: it all depends on the county you're in. Each county has different requirements. Almost all rural counties it's not a problem to obtain a CCW. From ones containing major cities, SF forget it, LA forget it unless you're famouse or stinking rich, SD forget it unless you own a big business that has a fair amount of cash flow and you do deposits, OC if you got a good cause not an issue.

To list some other counties in CA: SB not that big of a problem, Ventura: hard to say, El Dorado not too hard, Lassen: doable, Modoc: not a problem, Kern IIRC doable, Placer doable.

I dont know stats and rules for all, but quite a few issue. State does not revolve around SD, LA and SF as those residents would like to think :D


For more info on CCW in CA checkout www.calccw.com
 
Kejtar said:
OK, here's the deal: it all depends on the county you're in. Each county has different requirements. Almost all rural counties it's not a problem to obtain a CCW. From ones containing major cities, SF forget it, LA forget it unless you're famouse or stinking rich, SD forget it unless you own a big business that has a fair amount of cash flow and you do deposits, OC if you got a good cause not an issue.

To list some other counties in CA: SB not that big of a problem, Ventura: hard to say, El Dorado not too hard, Lassen: doable, Modoc: not a problem, Kern IIRC doable, Placer doable.

I dont know stats and rules for all, but quite a few issue. State does not revolve around SD, LA and SF as those residents would like to think :D


For more info on CCW in CA checkout www.calccw.com
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the CCW bs here in CA. Most of it has to do with the Sheriff of the county, the population of the county (which goes along with what you said), and the reasoning for your NEED to carry. Giving the reason that you have the right to carry is not good enough for a permit in most instances.
 
I have been reading about transfer and the Mak 9x18 rounds in JHP that are projecting the pill at only around 900 to 1000 fps with shallow penetration of around 4" to 6" @ 98 grains
 
Last edited:
rockwerks said:
I have been reading about transfer and the Mak 9x18 rounds in JHP that are projecting the pill at only around 900 to 1000 fps with shallow penetration of around 4" to 6" @ 98 grains
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Do tell...whats the muzzle energy on a 98 grain round travelling 1000fps?
 
9mm makarov

95 JHP 1000fps 930fps @ 50 yards 211muzzle energey 182@ 50 yards ME

9mm luger
147 JHP 990fps 941fps @ 50rds 320ME 289 @ 50 yards ME

.40
180 JHP 930fps 889fps @ 50 yards 346ME 316@ 50 yards ME

45ACP
230 JHP+P 950fps 904fps @ 50 yards 462ME 418@ 50 yards ME

This is a quick rundown of the cartridges and the 9mm makarov is very weak when it comes to the muzzle energy. Also the ME energy loss @ 50 yards in the 9mm Makarov seems to be about 13% while all the other calibers have it under 10%. Granted you dont shoot defensively @ 50 yards, but it is a good distance to get a feel for the round.
 
Stumpalump said:
Is Makarov higher than .380?
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it's very close: depending on which cartridge you choose they flip flop on balistics performance.

Thing is that while .380 ACP is not the best performing cartridge out of the bunch it does offer in the proper frame the size and concealability that the 9mm Makarov can't.

Looking at smaller cartridges:
.32Auto
71 JHP 905fps 855fps @ 50 yards 129ME 115ME @ 50 yards

.25Auto
45 JHP 815fps 729fps@ 50 yards 66ME 53ME@ 50 yards

.22 LR HV
30 HP 1575fps 1294fps@ 100 yards 185ME 112 ME @ 100 yards

The above cartridges IMHO you can get lucky with, but they don't really carry much of a punch. Short of damage to a vital nerve area, they most likely will not get noticed till after.
 
Stumpalump said:
Is Makarov higher than .380?
Click to expand...

The 9m/m Makarov is probably the smallest of the common 9m/m rounds at 9x17. The .380ACP is about 9x18m/m, then the common version (Luger/Parabellum) at 9x19. The larger iterations (9x20, 9x21, and 9x23, I think) were mainly developed for competition - trying to "make Major" using a midget round. (Look up the rules for IPSC calibre categories to know more.)

The 9m/m Makarov is also pretty much only available in the ComBloc surplus Makarov pistol, while you have more options with the .380ACP (I had a Colt Mustang that wasn't too bad - phonied up a "wallet holster" to carry the thing in my pocket, and practised drawing with my thumb over the hammer so it wouldn't snag on the way out - and I could "rack" (damn censor...) it once I cleared my pocket.) You can still do better than the .380, but you can do worse.

I've also not seen much selection in the way of Makarov ammo (just about all of that is ComBloc surplus or Wolf as well,) but you have options with the .380. There may be more Mak options out there - I've not kept track.

And yes, the Mak has a smaller pill and less energy, but you are likely to transfer more energy into the target if you hit - and that's what defensive handgunning is all about. That's why I don't like the 9x19 - overpenetration means less energy transferred, which means you didn't hit your target as hard as you should have. That's why you have to shoot someone several times with a 9m/m - where my second shot with the .45 is more pro forma than anything else ("If it's worth shooting, it's worth shooting twice.") A good double-tap should land about an inch and a half to two inches apart at 10 yards - you don't want to put the second round down the same hole, or why are you sending it?
 
5-90 said:
The 9m/m Makarov is probably the smallest of the common 9m/m rounds at 9x17. The .380ACP is about 9x18m/m, then the common version (Luger/Parabellum) at 9x19. The larger iterations (9x20, 9x21, and 9x23, I think) were mainly developed for competition - trying to "make Major" using a midget round. (Look up the rules for IPSC calibre categories to know more.)

The 9m/m Makarov is also pretty much only available in the ComBloc surplus Makarov pistol, while you have more options with the .380ACP (I had a Colt Mustang that wasn't too bad - phonied up a "wallet holster" to carry the thing in my pocket, and practised drawing with my thumb over the hammer so it wouldn't snag on the way out - and I could "rack" (damn censor...) it once I cleared my pocket.) You can still do better than the .380, but you can do worse.

I've also not seen much selection in the way of Makarov ammo (just about all of that is ComBloc surplus or Wolf as well,) but you have options with the .380. There may be more Mak options out there - I've not kept track.

And yes, the Mak has a smaller pill and less energy, but you are likely to transfer more energy into the target if you hit - and that's what defensive handgunning is all about. That's why I don't like the 9x19 - overpenetration means less energy transferred, which means you didn't hit your target as hard as you should have. That's why you have to shoot someone several times with a 9m/m - where my second shot with the .45 is more pro forma than anything else ("If it's worth shooting, it's worth shooting twice.") A good double-tap should land about an inch and a half to two inches apart at 10 yards - you don't want to put the second round down the same hole, or why are you sending it?
Click to expand...

all the maks are 9x18
 
Kejtar said:
9mm makarov

95 JHP 1000fps 930fps @ 50 yards 211muzzle energey 182@ 50 yards ME

9mm luger
147 JHP 990fps 941fps @ 50rds 320ME 289 @ 50 yards ME

.40
180 JHP 930fps 889fps @ 50 yards 346ME 316@ 50 yards ME

45ACP
230 JHP+P 950fps 904fps @ 50 yards 462ME 418@ 50 yards ME

This is a quick rundown of the cartridges and the 9mm makarov is very weak when it comes to the muzzle energy. Also the ME energy loss @ 50 yards in the 9mm Makarov seems to be about 13% while all the other calibers have it under 10%. Granted you dont shoot defensively @ 50 yards, but it is a good distance to get a feel for the round.
Click to expand...

there are several new rounds out there that are in the 280ME range these days and a few more expected in the near future.


http://alandp0.tripod.com/9x18/
 
Kejtar said:
To list some other counties in CA: SB not that big of a problem, Ventura: hard to say, El Dorado not too hard, Lassen: doable, Modoc: not a problem, Kern IIRC doable, Placer doable.
Click to expand...

As far as counties that will issue, you can add Fresno and Madera to that list also. ;)
 
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