Fooling the Computer for Better MPG

With regard to "switch on, engine off" testing for .450 volts on the O2 output circuit, I believe the O2 output increases with a rich mixture, and decreases with a lean mixture; accordingly, if the engine is not running, the "mixture" will be max "lean" even if the sensor has a heater (mine doesn't). As I said in a prior post, my experience is primarily with GM ECMs, but from reading various articles, it appears that most auto makers follow similar algorithms to effect engine management. So I think my projecting GM engine control philosophy to Chrysler would be beneficial. My inputs/comments are based on my '94 C/K Truck FSM titled "Driveability, Emissions, and Electrical Diagnosis Manual (invaluable when swapping in a Chevy engine!).
Consider the internal generated .450 reference as a "standard" against which the ECM compares the O2 output signal. If the O2 signal does not cross the reference voltage within a certain time interval after the engine is started, the ECM will not go into closed loop. If the engine has been running in closed loop, and the ECM senses a constant .450vdc O2 output, it assumes the O2 "circuit" failed, and will set a code and turn on the "check engine" light, reverting to open loop operation, which depends entirely on the base-line fuel/timing tables, modified by the other engine sensors and the long-term trim tables.
Getting back to Bob's interest, I do think you can skew, or bias the O2's output, staying near the center of the sensors range. I think a non-inverting OP amp approach would be a good start; the high output impedance shouldn't affect the ECM. My only concern would be the need to monitor real A/F to insure you don't go too lean. Detonation would result in the knock sensor circuit retarding spark.
My research indicates the O2 signal should vary above/below (cross count) the center reference voltage ~3 times a second. A common failure of the O2 sensor is slow reaction time, IE: low cross counts. The result is a rich mixture, resulting in low mileage, and a potentially fried cat. Under OBD-I, the ECM will not flag low cross counts; the O2 has to be dead before codes are set. In fact, with my '94 GM ECM, my O2 died while running (in closed loop), and set a code. After restarting, my ECM would not re-set the code, even though the sensor was now dead. Seems with this ECM, the engine needs to be in closed loop before a failure can be detected, other than a shorted O2 input circuit. Not going into closed loop to begin with will not set a code (at least if the reason is a failed O2 sensor).
 
xjbubba said:
Getting back to Bob's interest, I do think you can skew, or bias the O2's output, staying near the center of the sensors range. I think a non-inverting OP amp approach would be a good start; the high output impedance shouldn't affect the ECM. My only concern would be the need to monitor real A/F to insure you don't go too lean. Detonation would result in the knock sensor circuit retarding spark.

Fortunately, sound insulation in the XJ sucks, so hopefully one could HEAR ping, and finally knock (detonation). Drivability would likely suffer as well (surge, hesitation).


My research indicates the O2 signal should vary above/below (cross count) the center reference voltage ~3 times a second. A common failure of the O2 sensor is slow reaction time, IE: low cross counts. The result is a rich mixture, resulting in low mileage, and a potentially fried cat. Under OBD-I, the ECM will not flag low cross counts; the O2 has to be dead before codes are set. In fact, with my '94 GM ECM, my O2 died while running (in closed loop), and set a code. After restarting, my ECM would not re-set the code, even though the sensor was now dead. Seems with this ECM, the engine needs to be in closed loop before a failure can be detected, other than a shorted O2 input circuit. Not going into closed loop to begin with will not set a code (at least if the reason is a failed O2 sensor).

I know in OBD II a slow response will set a code with a still-functioning O2 sensor, because with my late lamented (25mpg sensor in my TJ) I would get a "Slow Response" code very occassionally if caught in a traffic jam, or waiting at the fast food drive-through too long, but NEVER on the highway. I saw maybe 4 such codes in a year (which I would just reset).

Bob
 
I am posting this because the Forum isn'tallowing me to EDIT my above message, but in case I didn't post it here before, here is a chart showing voltage vs. mixture showing the "higher voltage with leaner mixture" relationship, and how it becomes nonlinear either side of a narrow A/F Ratio band. Look for POST #23. The next post (#24) has an equally interesting chart.

http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=823798&page=2

Bob
 
Bob, I think it's the other way arround--a 11.76:1 A/F ratio (~12parts air to 1 part fuel=rich) ~1.0v, while a 17.64:1 ratio (lean) ~0.0v. Also, as stated at asahop.org:
"In normal operation, O2 signal voltage is routinely varying from almost zero to 1 volt. An O2 sensor signal voltage above approximately 0.45 volts is recognized by the PCM as a rich exhaust; below 0.45 volts as a lean exhaust. The goal of the PCM is to keep O2 voltage moving across the 0.45 volt rich/lean switch point for optimum fuel efficiency and emissions."
 
Speaking of neat-niks, Well I got lucky a while back, the wife left and I kept the kids, the Jeep, the projects, the parts, and the money PIT, LOL. I found out I could fix the Jeeps, but I never figured out how to fix the wife.:D I guess some things just can't be fixed, LOL.:rattle:

See additional comments below inside the quotes in regular font (not bold).


bobinyelm said:
That's true, but now unfortunately, having long ago "tossed" the old O2, I am at a loss to reconstruct the reason for the better economy w/ the old sensor. All I could do now would be to measure the O2 output of the new one in operation. Actually, I DID save the old one for over a month intending to play w/ it, but left it where it annoyed my neat-nik spouse, and she bugged me about it (somewhat rightly) until I threw it out. DOH!! I don't drive the TJ that much (maybe 200mi/mo in the winter), so by the time I realized what the new one was doing to me the old one was gone.

If what you say is TRUE, that is a GOOD THING, because it tells me that there IS enough "wobble room" in the O2/PCU equation for a 5mpg (25%) variance in fuel usage based on varying O2 outputs (whether caused by resistance, bad O2, etc.). THAT actually gives me hope!

My understanding is that O2 sensors will give slower response as they age (evidence" my MIL code), but that they should not change their reference voltage (since that is built into the "physics" of the metals that the O2 sensor is constructed from). Do you concur w/ that?

Not sure the question needs to be answered. Their responsiveness does go bad over time, it can be caused quickly by silica, or silicone poising from antifreeze getting on the inside or outside of the sensor, and possibly other poisons building up over time.

That's why I was rather shocked that my mileage changed like that. Your point that the new sensor may have resistance at its connector is one possible explanation, but of course, the internal impedance (resistance to ground) of the PCU should be high enough that any reasonable resistance in the connector (certainly less than 100 ohms) shouldn't alter the PCU input voltage enough to matter. Hmmm...

Wrong, The PCU is reading the O2 sensor output from the O2 sensor on the Post Renix models, if there is even just a few ohms of resistance in the O2 harness connection before the signal reaches the PCU then it causes a significant voltage drop at that connection and the PCU only sees the lower voltage, just like with your proposed trick. Significant meaning .01 to .05 volt drop! Should only take a few ohms to do that!

I have a suggestion. Cut the signal wire on the O2 sensor harness side, wire up a jumper with some clips and test the voltage across the O2 sensor using an analog volt meter with the engine running. Find out what the upper and lower voltage range is on yours with the O2 sensor connected to the PCU at several RPMs. Set up a data table. Then with the cut wire and jumper wires install and test several different fixed resistors in the hot leg in series and then rerun the voltage range and RPM engine test with the PCU seeing the O2 sensor with the resistor in the way. No need to run the engine for very long, and only in park, so no risk of engine damage from running too lean. Then lets discuss the test results, including the upper and lower limits of the volatge readings the PCU sees, the engine RPM and the engine performace (at least in park). I suggest starting with a 1, 10, and 100 ohm resistor to get some bearings first as to what resistor range we need.

Almost forgot, what I expect to see is the larger resistor causing the O2 sensor to bias too much causing the PCM to ignor the O2 sensor, thus switching to the so called open loop mode, which should become apparent when the O2 sensor output switches to and stays in the rich zone. Hopefully the 1 and maybe the 10 ohm resistor will trick the PCU giving us a succesfull test.

Note: Be sure that the jumper wires are always getting the proper signal to the PCU for all the tests!!!

Lottsa' questions. Few answers. Makes me want to get under there and start measuring.

AH, but today is Saturday, which means building and installing gutters on this money pit we fondly call a "home." Alas, I digress...

Bob
 
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bobinyelm said:
I am posting this because the Forum isn'tallowing me to EDIT my above message, but in case I didn't post it here before, here is a chart showing voltage vs. mixture showing the "higher voltage with leaner mixture" relationship, and how it becomes nonlinear either side of a narrow A/F Ratio band. Look for POST #23. The next post (#24) has an equally interesting chart.

http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=823798&page=2

Bob

I read this from your prior posting, those are great charts. Looking them over again, they confirm my thinking that a few ohms of resistance in the O2 sensor wiring to the PCM/ECU will cause the the ECU/PCU to bias and run the engine richer, thus hurting fuel economy and lowering MPGs. So lets check our wiring harnesses and connections!

This means that an op-amp circuit would be needed to raise or boost the voltage signal to the ECU/PCM to convince it that it was running too rich and trick it into running leaner.
 
I'm definitely going to have to read this thread. I'm so glad others are interested in getting more out of the 4.0L. 20MPG around town is pretty darn good. I'm a big fan of the I6 and I think there are a few more miles per gallon somewhere in there. Does anyone tune the stock ECU?

There's a company called Eagle Research. They mainly distribute information via booklets. There's a booklet that shows you how to build a circuit to use between the O2 sensor and ECU that will augment the value in the direction you wish. It's called EFIE. The booklet is $9, but you can buy a pre-built circuit for $60.

Another way to do it is a bit more expensive, but could be useful if you decide to tune the ECU. Wideband O2 sensor systems, such as those offered by Innovate Motorsports, allow you to change the stoich.

Also, there's a forum site that I frequent called GasSavers. The guys on there are hardcore. Some are a bit too liberal for most of us Jeepers. Just figured I'd give you a warning.
 
MattAnonymous said:
I'm definitely going to have to read this thread. I'm so glad others are interested in getting more out of the 4.0L. 20MPG around town is pretty darn good. I'm a big fan of the I6 and I think there are a few more miles per gallon somewhere in there. Does anyone tune the stock ECU?

There's a company called Eagle Research. They mainly distribute information via booklets. There's a booklet that shows you how to build a circuit to use between the O2 sensor and ECU that will augment the value in the direction you wish. It's called EFIE. The booklet is $9, but you can buy a pre-built circuit for $60.

Another way to do it is a bit more expensive, but could be useful if you decide to tune the ECU. Wideband O2 sensor systems, such as those offered by Innovate Motorsports, allow you to change the stoich.

Also, there's a forum site that I frequent called GasSavers. The guys on there are hardcore. Some are a bit too liberal for most of us Jeepers. Just figured I'd give you a warning.

Hey, THANKS- That's great information.

I did NOT know someone actually MAKES a device to do exactly what I propose, that is modifying the present O2 output to trick the computer! That actually gives me hope that the premace is a valid one. I WILL check it out!

BTW, I found this interesting article on the Auto-Tap site, and is a good primer for those not very familiar w/ the O2 Sensor function:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]WHAT THE HOME MECHANIC NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT O2 SENSORS
[/FONT]printer friendly .pdf version
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Today's computerized engine control systems rely on inputs from a variety of sensors to regulate engine performance, emissions and other important functions. The sensors must provide accurate information otherwise driveability problems, increased fuel consumption and emission failures can result.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One of the key sensors in this system is the oxygen sensor. It's often referred to as the "O2" sensor because O2 is the chemical formula for oxygen (oxygen atoms always travel in pairs, never alone).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first O2 sensor was introduced in 1976 on a Volvo 240. California vehicles got them next in 1980 when California's emission rules required lower emissions. Federal emission laws made O2 sensors virtually mandatory on all cars and light trucks built since 1981. And now that OBD-II regulations are here (1996 and newer vehicles), many vehicles are now equipped with multiple O2 sensors, some as many as four![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The O2 sensor is mounted in the exhaust manifold to monitor how much unburned oxygen is in the exhaust as the exhaust exits the engine. Monitoring oxygen levels in the exhaust is a way of gauging the fuel mixture. It tells the computer if the fuel mixture is burning rich (less oxygen) or lean (more oxygen).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A lot of factors can affect the relative richness or leanness of the fuel mixture, including air temperature, engine coolant temperature, barometric pressure, throttle position, air flow and engine load. There are other sensors to monitor these factors, too, but the O2 sensor is the master monitor for what's happening with the fuel mixture. Consequently, any problems with the O2 sensor can throw the whole system out of whack.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]LOOPS[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The computer uses the oxygen sensor's input to regulate the fuel mixture, which is referred to as the fuel "feedback control loop." The computer takes its cues from the O2 sensor and responds by changing the fuel mixture. This produces a corresponding change in the O2 sensor reading. This is referred to as "closed loop" operation because the computer is using the O2 sensor's input to regulate the fuel mixture. The result is a constant flip-flop back and forth from rich to lean which allows the catalytic converter to operate at peak efficiency while keeping the average overall fuel mixture in proper balance to minimize emissions. It's a complicated setup but it works.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When no signal is received from the O2 sensor, as is the case when a cold engine is first started (or the 02 sensor fails), the computer orders a fixed (unchanging) rich fuel mixture. This is referred to as "open loop" operation because no input is used from the O2 sensor to regulate the fuel mixture. If the engine fails to go into closed loop when the O2 sensor reaches operating temperature, or drops out of closed loop because the O2 sensor's signal is lost, the engine will run too rich causing an increase in fuel consumption and emissions. A bad coolant sensor can also prevent the system from going into closed loop because the computer also considers engine coolant temperature when deciding whether or not to go into closed loop.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HOW IT WORKS[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The O2 sensor works like a miniature generator and produces its own voltage when it gets hot. Inside the vented cover on the end of the sensor that screws into the exhaust manifold is a zirconium ceramic bulb. The bulb is coated on the outside with a porous layer of platinum. Inside the bulb are two strips of platinum that serve as electrodes or contacts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The outside of the bulb is exposed to the hot gases in the exhaust while the inside of the bulb is vented internally through the sensor body to the outside atmosphere. Older style oxygen sensors actually have a small hole in the body shell so air can enter the sensor, but newer style O2 sensors "breathe" through their wire connectors and have no vent hole. It's hard to believe, but the tiny amount of space between the insulation and wire provides enough room for air to seep into the sensor (for this reason, grease should never be used on O2 sensor connectors because it can block the flow of air). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Venting the sensor through the wires rather than with a hole in the body reduces the risk of dirt or water contamination that could foul the sensor from the inside and cause it to fail. The difference in oxygen levels between the exhaust and outside air within the sensor causes voltage to flow through the ceramic bulb. The greater the difference, the higher the voltage reading.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An oxygen sensor will typically generate up to about 0.9 volts when the fuel mixture is rich and there is little unburned oxygen in the exhaust. When the mixture is lean, the sensor's output voltage will drop down to about 0.1 volts. When the air/fuel mixture is balanced or at the equilibrium point of about 14.7 to 1, the sensor will read around 0.45 volts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the computer receives a rich signal (high voltage) from the O2 sensor, it leans the fuel mixture to reduce the sensor's reading. When the O2 sensor reading goes lean (low voltage), the computer reverses again making the fuel mixture go rich. This constant flip-flopping back and forth of the fuel mixture occurs with different speeds depending on the fuel system. The transition rate is slowest on engines with feedback carburetors, typically once per second at 2500 rpm. Engines with throttle body injection are somewhat faster (2 to 3 times per second at 2500 rpm), while engines with multiport injection are the fastest (5 to 7 times per second at 2500 rpm).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The oxygen sensor must be hot (about 600 degrees or higher) before it will start to generate a voltage signal, so many oxygen sensors have a small heating element inside to help them reach operating temperature more quickly. The heating element can also prevent the sensor from cooling off too much during prolonged idle, which would cause the system to revert to open loop.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Heated O2 sensors are used mostly in newer vehicles and typically have 3 or 4 wires. Older single wire O2 sensors do not have heaters. When replacing an O2 sensor, make sure it is the same type as the original (heated or unheated). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A NEW ROLE FOR O2 SENSORS WITH OBD II[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Starting with a few vehicles in 1994 and 1995, and all 1996 and newer vehicles, the number of oxygen sensors per engine has doubled. A second oxygen sensor is now used downstream of the catalytic converter to monitor the converter's operating efficiency. On V6 or V8 engines with dual exhausts, this means up to four O2 sensors (one for each cylinder bank and one after each converter) may be used.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The OBD II system is designed to monitor the emissions performance of the engine. This includes keeping an eye on anything that might cause emissions to increase. The OBD II system compares the oxygen level readings of the O2 sensors before and after the converter to see if the converter is reducing the pollutants in the exhaust. If it sees little or no change in oxygen level readings, it means the converter is not working properly. This will cause the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) to come on. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SENSOR DIAGNOSIS[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]O2 sensors are amazingly rugged considering the operating environment they live in. But O2 sensors do wear out and eventually have to be replaced. The performance of the O2 sensor tends to diminish with age as contaminants accumulate on the sensor tip and gradually reduce its ability to produce voltage. This kind of deterioration can be caused by a variety of substances that find their way into the exhaust such as lead, silicone, sulfur, oil ash and even some fuel additives. The sensor can also be damaged by environmental factors such as water, splash from road salt, oil and dirt.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As the sensor ages and becomes sluggish, the time it takes to react to changes in the air/fuel mixture slows down which causes emissions to go up. This happens because the flip-flopping of the fuel mixture is slowed down which reduces converter efficiency. The effect is more noticeable on engines with multiport fuel injection (MFI) than electronic carburetion or throttle body injection because the fuel ratio changes much more rapidly on MFI applications. If the sensor dies altogether, the result can be a fixed, rich fuel mixture. Default on most fuel injected applications is mid-range after three minutes. This causes a big jump in fuel consumption as well as emissions. And if the converter overheats because of the rich mixture, it may suffer damage. One EPA study found that 70% of the vehicles that failed an I/M 240 emissions test needed a new O2 sensor.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The only way to know if the O2 sensor is doing its job is to inspect it regularly. That's why some vehicles (mostly imports) have a sensor maintenance reminder light. A good time to check the sensor is when the spark plugs are changed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You can read the O2 sensor's output with a scan tool or digital voltmeter, but the transitions are hard to see because the numbers jump around so much. Here's where a PC based scantool such as AutoTap really shines. You can use the graphing features to watch the transitions of the O2 sensors voltage. The software will display the sensor's voltage output as a wavy line that shows both it's amplitude (minimum and maximum voltage) as well as its frequency (transition rate from rich to lean). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A good O2 sensor should produce an oscillating waveform at idle that makes voltage transitions from near minimum (0.1 v) to near maximum (0.9v). Making the fuel mixture artificially rich by feeding propane into the intake manifold should cause the sensor to respond almost immediately (within 100 milliseconds) and go to maximum (0.9v) output. Creating a lean mixture by opening a vacuum line should cause the sensor's output to drop to its minimum (0.1v) value. If the sensor doesn't flip-flop back and forth quickly enough, it may indicate a need for replacement.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If the O2 sensor circuit opens, shorts or goes out of range, it may set a fault code and illuminate the Check Engine or Malfunction Indicator Lamp. If additional diagnosis reveals the sensor is defective, replacement is required. But many O2 sensors that are badly degraded continue to work well enough not to set a fault code-but not well enough to prevent an increase in emissions and fuel consumption. The absence of a fault code or warning lamp, therefore, does not mean the O2 sensor is functioning properly.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SENSOR REPLACEMENT[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any O2 sensor that is defective obviously needs to be replaced. But there may also be benefits to replacing the O2 sensor periodically for preventive maintenance. Replacing an aging O2 sensor that has become sluggish can restore peak fuel efficiency, minimize exhaust emissions and prolong the life of the converter.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unheated 1 or 2 wire wire O2 sensors on 1976 through early 1990s vehicles can be replaced every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. Heated 3 and 4-wire O2 sensors on mid-1980s through mid-1990s applications can be changed every 60,000 miles. On OBD II equipped vehicles (1996 & up), a replacement interval of 100,000 miles is recommended.[/FONT]
 
I found a reference in one of the site links below that says my Renix O2 (pre 91, years 87-90 only) sensor varies between 20,000 ohms (lean) and about 1000 ohms (rich).

http://www.forparts.com/Bos02update2.htm

Got to thinking that if I can find out what the actual 2.5 volt, 14.7 A/F ratio, O2 sensor resistance is that I could add a parallel resistor with a fixed resistance (or variable pot) equivalent to say a 14:1 A/F ratio that would bias and buffer the resistance reading the ECU sees and bias it to the rich side (less overall resistance) thus forcing the ECU to lean out the mixture a little bit.

I think I will power up the ECU/Jeep, engine off, and put a potentiometer in between the ground return wire and the 5 volt signal wire in the wiring harness, O2 sensor disconnected, dial in 2.5 volts with the Pot and then remove the pot and measure the resulting resistance, This will tell me what the sweet spot for 14.7:1 ratio is in terms of resistance in the O2 sensor. Then I could take a slightly smaller resistance resistor (fixed or variable) than the 2.5 volt resistance measurement and install it in parallel to the Renix O2 sensor, and let it bias the voltage the ECU sees to the rich side forcing the ECU to lean out the mixture.

Other possible issues:

This will probably buffer the readings the ECU sees, thus making the circuit act like a slower responding O2 sensor, which may hurt the economy and or resposnse and performance, or even throw it into open loop, especially if the existing O2 sensor performance (meaning it suffers from slow response time) is already low. Due to buffering, it might also convince the ECU that it is close to the optimal A/F ratio when in fact it might be way off. In other words if the buffering effect is too large it might allow the ECU to run closed loop during cold start warm up when it should not, or at other times when it is in fact way off. It might even make a bad Biased or slow sensor look like a good sensor due to buffering thus allowing the computer to run closed loop when it should not.:eek:

Adding an inline resistor to the Renix O2 sensor would make it run richer according to the Bosch site data above. Since the resistance range is so high with the Renix O2 system, a poor ground (adding say 100 ohms to the overall O2 sensor circuit resistance) should not significantly hurt the Renix fuel efficiency. However, a very poor large ground wire loss like 1000 ohms might be enough to make the system run very rich and loose fuel economy.:eek:


HMM, much to think about and ponder here. I could also install an on/off switch on the resistor or Potentiometer allowing me to remove the influence of the biasing/buffering resistor at the flip of switch.:idea:
 
xjbubba said:
Bob, I think it's the other way arround--a 11.76:1 A/F ratio (~12parts air to 1 part fuel=rich) ~1.0v, while a 17.64:1 ratio (lean) ~0.0v. Also, as stated at asahop.org:
"In normal operation, O2 signal voltage is routinely varying from almost zero to 1 volt. An O2 sensor signal voltage above approximately 0.45 volts is recognized by the PCM as a rich exhaust; below 0.45 volts as a lean exhaust. The goal of the PCM is to keep O2 voltage moving across the 0.45 volt rich/lean switch point for optimum fuel efficiency and emissions."

I AGREE completely.

That is why I say we need to try to INCREASE the voltage that the PCU thinks is coming from the O2 sensor.

That way, the PCU will see the higher voltage, see it as rich, and lean out the mixture (by shortening the fuel injector pulses).

Of course, the ACTUAL O2 output will then go low, but when added to the bias voltage we add to it, it will equal .45v thereby making the PCU a happy camper.

The idea is that we have to trick the PCU or whatever WE do will have an opposite effect. The PCU is a tricky little bugger.

Bob
 
Looks like the best way to attack this thing is to let the O2 sensor do its job most of the time. To modify a two-wire thermal transducer (O2 sensor) that is constantly changing resistance (and therefore voltage) would seem to be a booger of a project:attom: --unless you use another computer! That said, cutting into the 5 volt plus line and running that voltage through a switch with a predetermined resistor might work. The "in series" resistor value would be such as to give the total resistance seen by the ECM for an optimal lean mixture--BUT only at a certain speed/engine RPM like when cruising down the road. At other times, such as startup, passing or going up a grade, the switch could be turned off and the ECM sees only the O2 sensor and make adjustments accordingly. A small control box could be built (with different resistances and toggle switches) to 'fool' the ECM under a variety of conditions if so desired. A sort of 'power' and 'economy' modes.:D

Brother--that reminds me of that power comfort switch on my '90 Laredo.:roll:
 
CrawlingCritter said:
Looks like the best way to attack this thing is to let the O2 sensor do its job most of the time. To modify a two-wire thermal transducer (O2 sensor) that is constantly changing resistance (and therefore voltage) would seem to be a booger of a project:attom: --unless you use another computer! That said, cutting into the 5 volt plus line and running that voltage through a switch with a predetermined resistor might work. The "in series" resistor value would be such as to give the total resistance seen by the ECM for an optimal lean mixture--BUT only at a certain speed/engine RPM like when cruising down the road. At other times, such as startup, passing or going up a grade, the switch could be turned off and the ECM sees only the O2 sensor and make adjustments accordingly. A small control box could be built (with different resistances and toggle switches) to 'fool' the ECM under a variety of conditions if so desired. A sort of 'power' and 'economy' modes.:D


Brother--that reminds me of that power comfort switch on my '90 Laredo.:roll:
For the Renix years, 87-90, if you knew the exact , correct resistance of the Renix O2 sensor at operating temperature, at 14.7:1 optimal fuel ratio, then you could add a 10 to 20% smaller resistance resistor across the two O2 sensor to ECU wires to lower, or bais the apparent resistance the ECU sees, to show the ECU a lower resistance than the O2 sensor actually has at 14.7:1, thus forcing the ECU to lean out the fuel slightly. Figuring out what the true O2 sensor resistance is at the 14.7:1 fuel ratio is no simple task, short of asking the O2 sensor manufacturer. It's no simple task measuring the resistance of a dynamic, voltage loaded resistor that is changing resistance every milisecond. Might be easier if you had a second O2 sensor installed right behind the loaded, working sensor, then you could just watch the resistance change on a second meter while watching the voltage change on the first ECU operated O2 sensor.

Oh, and a fixed resistor by itself would just force the ECU to push the engine full lean, trying to force the fixed resistor to read slightly rich, which it never would, so it either burns up the engine rapidly, or the ECU ignors the resistor, fake O2 sensor, and goes into rich, open loop mode.
 
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You guys are approaching the problem backwards.

If you all are really this serious then you should look at it just like adding forced induction but in reverse. look into wideband air fuel gauge and programmable fuel and spark timing. Couple with a slightly more restrictive intake (swap in a Renix manifold and Throttle Body) lower fuel pressure, and 17 to 18 pound Bosch design III's. A Split Second FTC, and AEM 02 will run about $700. You could save that in a year or two if you net 2-3 MPG

Sure the initial investment would cost more (600 to 800 dollars less if you patiently watch for bargains on Ebay) but you would be able to set it up so that it leans out considerably at steady cruise but fattens back up when accelerating.
 
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:attom: :attom: :attom:

This is all making my head spin!!!

:dunce: :dunno: :shiver:
 
I was just reading my 87-90 Renix fuel injection FSM, specifically the O2 sensor, and it says the opposite of what I read elsewhere, or put simply it indicates just adding a very small resistor in series with the two O2 sensor wires to the ECU would force the ECU to run the engine leaner, not richer. So if that is correct, all one needs to do is install a low resistance, variable resistor in line (series) with the existing O2 sensor. Basically a 1.00 part and some wire.

The trick is not to over do it and burn out the engine by running it too lean.

Now if the Renix people were smart, they would know that a poor O2 sensor connection (added resistance) could do the same thing and burn up the engine so they would devise a safeguard, which I beleive is the ECU comparative resistor desribed in the Renix FSM. It uses a comparative resistor to se if the O2 sensor reistor is reliable, it likes a test standard! So adding a few ohms would probably be OK, but at some point the ECU would just read the O2 sensor as non responsive if you used too big of a resistor.

Considering the near zero cost of this, I am going to sleep on this, verify it, and if I am right, I may just have to try it this year. But I would probably add a safety wide band sensor and gauge so I could sleep at night and not worry about over doing the leaning factor.
 
Anyone seen the new Peterson's magazine? They've been doing a retrospective on their 30th anniversary. An ad from 1977 touted the new Chevy truck as getting 13 mpg city, 20 mpg highway. They then compared the numbers of the new Chevy, 11 mpg city, 17 mpg highway. :huh:


Anyone else see anything fundamentally wrong with this? 30 years later, with all the technological advances that have come in that timeframe, and the new truck gets worse mileage than the old one?

WTF?:sure:
 
Fric-n-Frak, expletive, etc, I just went through all my notes, records etc, and the Bosch O2 sensor web site says the opposite of what the 87-90 Renix FI manual says. Bosch says the O2 sensor is reading lean at 20,000 ohms, and reading rich at 1000 ohms. At least Bosch quotes some upper and lower resistance values for the Renix years, O2 sensors. Guess its time to call Bosch for verification of which one is correct. Would also be nice to know what the 2.45 volt target resistance is?


Ecomike said:
I was just reading my 87-90 Renix fuel injection FSM, specifically the O2 sensor, and it says the opposite of what I read elsewhere, or put simply it indicates just adding a very small resistor in series with the two O2 sensor wires to the ECU would force the ECU to run the engine leaner, not richer. So if that is correct, all one needs to do is install a low resistance, variable resistor in line (series) with the existing O2 sensor. Basically a 1.00 part and some wire.

The trick is not to over do it and burn out the engine by running it too lean.

Now if the Renix people were smart, they would know that a poor O2 sensor connection (added resistance) could do the same thing and burn up the engine so they would devise a safeguard, which I beleive is the ECU comparative resistor desribed in the Renix FSM. It uses a comparative resistor to se if the O2 sensor reistor is reliable, it likes a test standard! So adding a few ohms would probably be OK, but at some point the ECU would just read the O2 sensor as non responsive if you used too big of a resistor.

Considering the near zero cost of this, I am going to sleep on this, verify it, and if I am right, I may just have to try it this year. But I would probably add a safety wide band sensor and gauge so I could sleep at night and not worry about over doing the leaning factor.
 
CrawlingCritter said:
Looks like the best way to attack this thing is to let the O2 sensor do its job most of the time. To modify a two-wire thermal transducer (O2 sensor) that is constantly changing resistance (and therefore voltage) would seem to be a booger of a project:attom: --unless you use another computer! That said, cutting into the 5 volt plus line and running that voltage through a switch with a predetermined resistor might work. The "in series" resistor value would be such as to give the total resistance seen by the ECM for an optimal lean mixture--BUT only at a certain speed/engine RPM like when cruising down the road. At other times, such as startup, passing or going up a grade, the switch could be turned off and the ECM sees only the O2 sensor and make adjustments accordingly. A small control box could be built (with different resistances and toggle switches) to 'fool' the ECM under a variety of conditions if so desired. A sort of 'power' and 'economy' modes.:D

Brother--that reminds me of that power comfort switch on my '90 Laredo.:roll:

Crank, and WOT are "open loop" modes no O2 druing these actions
Warm-up also "open loop" , ECM reads O2
 
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