Engine oil! ZDDP! Rabblerabblerabble... A testimonial.

[Milford Cubicle II]

...that we ran in the old Class 6 car didn't have anything near a .550 lift so I'm not sure what dreamland you are living in...we aren't drag racing or land speed racing here.

Ok then like I said, it's not "high performance" as it relates to the subject of ZDP and valvetrains so your whole argument of running plain oil in a "race 4.0" and it working just fine is pointless.

Also, I would argue that there's a big difference between a motor with 100,000 miles on it that's occasionally driven hard as well and a "race motor" that gets a few thousand hard miles.

And I know, this is where you come back and say "Well I've put 300k miles on my blah blah blah racing blah blah in my blah blah and you don't have any experience with blah blah blah so what you say doesn't mean blah blah blah blah..." that's when I pretty much tune you out.

 

[Shorty]

2.) I would imagine that the lash/solid lifter creates some funky wear forces on the cam lobes as there is no dampening like an oil filled lifter would create. Im no mechanical engineer so I cant really go into detail here. But harmonics and lack of viscous dampening could create alot more force and wear on the cam lobes. Think about it from the standpoint of rev limits for cams. Say a hyd flat tappet lifter tops out at 5500 before it floats the valves and drops off on power. The exact same motor with the same profile cam but in a solid will turn higher rpms before dropping off on power and floating the valves, say 6k in this example. Why is this? The hyd lifters cant mantain the pressure and the approriate "lash" to control the valves. The force of the valvetrain has over come what the lifter can handle. This results in a giant oil leak in that area. Kinda how the rods on a crank oil the bottom side of the pistons, rods, and cam from the controlled oil leak there.

hydraulic lifters fail to maintain pressure at higher RPM and "collapse" thus no longer opening the valve -- they don't float the valves

valves "float" when the ability of the valve spring to close the valve is exceeded by the valvetrain's inertia and they remain open when they should be closed.

 

[milehigh]

hydraulic lifters fail to maintain pressure at higher RPM and "collapse" thus no longer opening the valve -- they don't float the valves

valves "float" when the ability of the valve spring to close the valve is exceeded by the valvetrain's inertia and they remain open when they should be closed.

Okay so I used the term float wrong, my bad that is how Ive always refered to it but you are right in the usage. Common I did have it correct though as my explanation was right. Little bit of slack.... my mini book there was 99% correct.

 

[DieselSJ]

Ok then like I said, it's not "high performance" as it relates to the subject of ZDP and valvetrains so your whole argument of running plain oil in a "race 4.0" and it working just fine is pointless.

Also, I would argue that there's a big difference between a motor with 100,000 miles on it that's occasionally driven hard as well and a "race motor" that gets a few thousand hard miles.

And I know, this is where you come back and say "Well I've put 300k miles on my blah blah blah racing blah blah in my blah blah and you don't have any experience with blah blah blah so what you say doesn't mean blah blah blah blah..." that's when I pretty much tune you out.

So if I say that we put 300K miles on our race motor you will go away?

Well, we put 300K miles on our race motor because we ran the Baja 1000 over 300 times with it....

Now, if you want to get back to the discussion as it applies to our good old fourpointoh's and the real world kind of setups that 99.999% of the people here are running, then pull up a chair.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Quit trying to argue that if your mild 4.0 stroker has done fine for a few thousand miles (if that) without worrying about ZDP, then those of us who occasionally wheel the piss out of ours and would like them to be running well past 150k miles shouldn't worry about ZDP.

 

[MoparManiac]

Quit trying to argue that if your mild 4.0 stroker has done fine for a few thousand miles (if that) without worrying about ZDP, then those of us who occasionally wheel the piss out of ours and would like them to be running well past 150k miles shouldn't worry about ZDP.

I love the fact that you're tuning out my facts as well.

I've had TWO 4.0s both of which I personally put 50k+ miles on with on-sale oil, no ZDDP additives, all of this over the past 3-4 years. Neither of the previous owners used synthetic oil.

They were driven 400+ miles per week, wheeled twice every month, and I NEVER had a problem with them.

One I junked with the XJ at 240k (body rotted away), the other is going in my MJ at 205k and runs mint.

 

[Dest]

So for the average wheeler who doesn't know what any of you are talking about, but cares about our XJs, is a ZDDP additive necessary and what about Rotella 10/30?

 

[MoparManiac]

So for the average wheeler who doesn't know what any of you are talking about, but cares about our XJs, is a ZDDP additive necessary and what about Rotella 10/30?

This is the point of the this thread, you're going to get varying answers.

DieselSJ and I say it's not necessary to add ZDDP in a 4.0. We both have real world proof that it's not.

Other's disagree.

 

[NDMstang65]

So long as you aren't using an oil that has parafin wax in it (quaker state) you're fine. Parafin wax has a lovely characteristic of laying in the lifter galleys and valve train and 'crusting' over..which blocks off oil passages and such. How those guys are still in business I will never ever know.

Just..change it religiously.

Amsoil has bypass systems that work phenomenal that you literally never change your oil again, twist the bypass valves off, drop the filters and add a quart. You can take samples and have it analyzed and everything to see how your healthy the oil is...

Personally I use Rotella in the jeep, other then that everything else gets Amsoil. The only draw back to a synthetic like Amsoil is..it will leak. Not much you can really do about it either. Rotella slowed the leak down in the Jeep a great deal...rollback and such have dripped since the day we put it in there. But we changed the transmission oil and rear end oil. You used to not be able to touch the gear shifter after driving it for an hour or so because it was so hot, now you can go 8-10 hours and touch it...and it is cool as a cucumber.

Made a believer out of me for synthetic stuff. But, it does not have its place in every application.

-2 cents.

 

[DieselSJ]

I love the fact that you're tuning out my facts as well.

I've had TWO 4.0s both of which I personally put 50k+ miles on with on-sale oil, no ZDDP additives, all of this over the past 3-4 years. Neither of the previous owners used synthetic oil.

They were driven 400+ miles per week, wheeled twice every month, and I NEVER had a problem with them.

One I junked with the XJ at 240k (body rotted away), the other is going in my MJ at 205k and runs mint.

And let's not forget my 221K mile stocker '91 that I just picked up that has never had anything other than Jiffylube oil changes. It seems to have lived just fine with non-synthetic bulk oil with no special additives.

 

[DieselSJ]

Quit trying to argue that if your mild 4.0 stroker has done fine for a few thousand miles (if that) without worrying about ZDP, then those of us who occasionally wheel the piss out of ours and would like them to be running well past 150k miles shouldn't worry about ZDP.

What mild stroker? There you go with your assumptions again, showing that you know nothing about what we are talking about.

 

[DieselSJ]

So for the average wheeler who doesn't know what any of you are talking about, but cares about our XJs, is a ZDDP additive necessary and what about Rotella 10/30?

It is not necessary. Your engine will live a long healthy life without it. IMHO consistent oil changes are more important.

Rotella 10/30 is a blend. Personally I like the 5/40 synthetic version and I run it in all of my cars - gas and diesel. I even use it in the the crankcase of my YZF and all of my motorized garden equipment.

 

[kastein]

Quit trying to argue that if your mild 4.0 stroker has done fine for a few thousand miles (if that) without worrying about ZDP, then those of us who occasionally wheel the piss out of ours and would like them to be running well past 150k miles shouldn't worry about ZDP.

:wave:

my 96 has 150 or so on it and I beat the shit out of it. No ZDDP additives and the previous owner wasn't very big on maintenance so I doubt he used any either. I use valvoline maxlife unless I'm in a hurry or it's not available, at which point I use whatever viscosity, whatever type, whatever company is available.

my 91 has 230k on it and gets whatever oil happens to be sold at the rest stop or gas station I pull over at when I hear the valves clattering, look at the gauge, and see 0-5psi hot running pressure. It leaks a lot of oil and I forget once in a while, I've run it dry at highway speeds probably 6 or 7 times now and it still has good hot pressure, runs fine, accelerates great... hell, I ended up pouring used oil back into it at one point because I didn't have any new oil on hand and needed to drive it home.

So long as you aren't using an oil that has parafin wax in it (quaker state) you're fine. Parafin wax has a lovely characteristic of laying in the lifter galleys and valve train and 'crusting' over..which blocks off oil passages and such. How those guys are still in business I will never ever know.

Just..change it religiously.

Amsoil has bypass systems that work phenomenal that you literally never change your oil again, twist the bypass valves off, drop the filters and add a quart. You can take samples and have it analyzed and everything to see how your healthy the oil is...

Personally I use Rotella in the jeep, other then that everything else gets Amsoil. The only draw back to a synthetic like Amsoil is..it will leak. Not much you can really do about it either. Rotella slowed the leak down in the Jeep a great deal...rollback and such have dripped since the day we put it in there. But we changed the transmission oil and rear end oil. You used to not be able to touch the gear shifter after driving it for an hour or so because it was so hot, now you can go 8-10 hours and touch it...and it is cool as a cucumber.

Made a believer out of me for synthetic stuff. But, it does not have its place in every application.

-2 cents.

I've heard pennzoil has that crap in it too. FYI, paraffin waxes are simply long chain hydrocarbons, nothing special about them. All non-synthetic oils are going to contain them in varying concentrations... in fact normal oil, even synthetic, qualifies as a "paraffin wax" just a short-chain one:

In chemistry, paraffin is a term that can be used synonymously with "alkane", indicating hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH2n+2. Paraffin wax refers to a mixture of alkanes that falls within the 20 ≤ n ≤ 40 range; they are found in the solid state at room temperature and begin to enter the liquid phase past approximately 37°C.
The simplest paraffin molecule is that of methane, CH4, a gas at room temperature. Heavier members of the series, such as octane, C8H18, and mineral oil appear as liquids at room temperature. The solid forms of paraffin, called paraffin wax, are from the heaviest molecules from C20H42 to C40H82. Paraffin wax was identified by Carl Reichenbach in 1830.[1]

The difference is that the longer the chains get, the higher the melting point gets. Depending on how well the fractional distillation column that separates the dino oil out is, you may get varying amounts of long-chain paraffins in the fractionates that are supposed to only contain shorter-chain paraffins i.e. oils.

Ever notice how similar in feel a clear plastic milk jug (LDPE, low density polyethylene) and a block of pure paraffin wax are? That's because the LDPE is pretty much the same thing, the carbon chains are simply a bit longer and more cross-linked. If you melt one down and make a candle out of it, it actually burns quite well, though somewhat sooty due to the higher melting point. In fact you can buy premade polyethylene candles (P-tex) for repairing skis.

:attom::attom::lecture:

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

DieselSJ and I say it's not necessary to add ZDDP in a 4.0. We both have real world proof that it's not.

Lol so owning 2 4.0's that you've had good luck with running regular oil is proof??? :roflmao:

How bout this for "proof":
I've also owned 2 4.0's. The first (when i was younger and dumber ) I ran regular jiffylube oil in and had nothing but trouble with. The second 4.0 I ran good oil with additives in it and it's got 250k miles on it and is still running flawlessly. There, I have just as much "proof" as you have

I don't think anyone's arguing that it's necessary, just that it's a good idea.

You could probably take 10 4.0's and run 9 of them into the 200k+ mile range with no problems on straight up regular, non-synthetic oil. The 4.0 is a good, tolerant motor. However, most of us use synthetic oil because of its benefits, however slight they may be. Same thing with a good amount of ZDP, it's beneficial. Not necessary, but beneficial.

In other words, it's better to use an oil with the stuff than without it.

What mild stroker? There you go with your assumptions again, showing that you know nothing about what we are talking about.

I thought we just went over this, boring and stroking a 4.0 and adding a slightly more aggressive cam doesn't make it high performance. Hell, a lot of regular production cars today come bone stock with a much more aggressive cam and a lot more compression than a 4.0.

What are the specs on your "high performance" stroker? I'll take your word for it.

 

[NDMstang65]

Precisely..I've heard the same thing about penzoil as well.

I'll never use the stuff.

 

[MoparManiac]

Lol so owning 2 4.0's that you've had good luck with running regular oil is proof??? :roflmao:

How bout this for "proof":
I've also owned 2 4.0's. The first (when i was younger and dumber ) I ran regular jiffylube oil in and had nothing but trouble with. The second 4.0 I ran good oil with additives in it and it's got 250k miles on it and is still running flawlessly. There, I have just as much "proof" as you have

I don't think anyone's arguing that it's necessary, just that it's a good idea.

You could probably take 10 4.0's and run 9 of them into the 200k+ mile range with no problems on straight up regular, non-synthetic oil. The 4.0 is a good, tolerant motor. However, most of us use synthetic oil because of its benefits, however slight they may be. Same thing with a good amount of ZDP, it's beneficial. Not necessary, but beneficial.

In other words, it's better to use an oil with the stuff than without it.

You have one problematic XJ that you've given no story behind. What problems were there? I highly doubt they were related to not having any ZDDP. Now you're just arguing about using decent engine oil.

Myself and DieselSJ as well as Kastein have several jeeps combined with no issues.

Why would you not want to pay a couple dollars per oil change for oil that will make your engine run better longer?

I don't get it. Your whole case was based on the fact that it would be financially beneficially to use the crap every oil change.

Let's say you do 66 oil changes over the 200k mile range. Forget about using synthetic, lets say you just do ZDDP additives and conventional oil. If each bottle of additive is $5 you'll spend $330 more on just ZDDP additives.

It's already been proven that they run well over 200k miles WITHOUT additives, so that financial spread would only continue to grow. I'd be willing to bet by the time the difference truly showed, I could have transplanted at least a few 4.0s into my engine bay since I can find them at ~100k for $200 around here.

 

[XJLI]

my jeeps run better with oil than without. So I run oil in them.

x2

 

[DieselSJ]

What are the specs on your "high performance" stroker? I'll take your word for it.

First of all, it isn't a stroker. Well, sort of not...

Go read the JS rules on what we are allowed to do to the engine, then let your mind wander. Put it this way - internals are open, limited to running 100 octane. We built it to that.

 

[srimes]

Let's say you do 66 oil changes over the 200k mile range.

66?? lol, I'd be closer to 20!


I agree with what you're saying though.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Go read the JS rules on what we are allowed to do to the engine, then let your mind wander.

How bout I don't and you just tell me what you're running cam and compression wise and maybe a horsepower and torque number, if you know any of that

You have one problematic XJ that you've given no story behind. What problems were there? I highly doubt they were related to not having any ZDDP. Now you're just arguing about using decent engine oil.

Myself and DieselSJ as well as Kastein have several jeeps combined with no issues.

I don't get it. Your whole case was based on the fact that it would be financially beneficially to use the crap every oil change.

Let's say you do 66 oil changes over the 200k mile range. Forget about using synthetic, lets say you just do ZDDP additives and conventional oil. If each bottle of additive is $5 you'll spend $330 more on just ZDDP additives.

It's already been proven that they run well over 200k miles WITHOUT additives, so that financial spread would only continue to grow. I'd be willing to bet by the time the difference truly showed, I could have transplanted at least a few 4.0s into my engine bay since I can find them at ~100k for $200 around here.

My first 4.0 didn't make it to 200k without additives. That's not my point, who knows if running better oil and maybe additive could've prevented it. I eventually cracked a piston and when I tore the engine apart the cam was in pretty bad shape. My point is that you having good luck with a few 4.0's doesn't make it law that ZDP is useless in them. There's a difference between causation and correlation.

How many times do I have to say that I don't think ZDP is necessary??? I also never said anything about it being "financially beneficial", try reading, it helps. What I said was that for as cheap as ZDP additives are, it's a good idea to use them.

Also, the additive I use is just under half of $5 so according to your math it would cause me about $150 every 200k miles. Is that worth it to me to decrease my chances of an engine failure? Hell yes it is.

I think it's hilarious that you're arguing against scientific fact. ZDP decreases wear on metal parts. The 4.0 is made of metal parts. Less wear = tighter tolerances = less chance of parts failure.

But I guess somehow the 4.0 is an exception to the laws of physics