Disputing gas saving tips

[falcon556]

Thats a bigger pipe dream than Hydrogen vehicles, we are truly addicted to cheap energy. Its a fact. If oil only lasts another 30 years, were screwed if theres no alternative.

The Germans fought WWII using 1930's technology to convert coal to oil.
The US has more coal than the rest of the world combined.
Do the math.
The oil shales in Rifle Colorado contain 150 years of recoverable oil at current consumption . We have oil in the Arctic, East Coast, West Coast, off the coast of Florida that we don't touch due to government intervention.
We don't need alternatives, what we need is the government to stop restricting the supply that keeps the prices high and makes the oil companies richer.
Anybody that thinks that the reason for ethanol is not payola to corporations like ADM and buys in to the BS that ethanol is greener (it is proven worse) reduces oil dependence (it takes 1.3 gallons of oil to produce 1 gallon of ethanol), needs to think again. Not to mention that it raises the prices of corn (more than 30% a couple of days ago) and food in general.
IMHO ethanol has been the worst example ever of government screwing us right in front of our eyes and getting away with it.
BTW don't forget nuclear energy.

 

[falcon556]

My experience with ethanol is much more than 5% or 10%. More like 15-20%. .

Me too!
I think I loose a lot more than can be explained by the lower energy content of the ethanol.
I think the O2 sensor and PCM may be the reason.
Anybody knows more on this subject?

 

[Rick Anderson]

Ok, German technological advances during WWII have often been vastly exaggerated. Yes, they were using synthetic rubber/oil/fuel, coal converted fuel, working on a Nuclear Weapon. We also made a lot of advances. Other than the rocket technology with Warner Von Bruin, who made rockets for us after the war, its impact was exaggerated. Most of German Oil came from conventional sources, NOT unconventional.

Oil only lasting 30 years, as a child I had text books in elementary school stating that oil reserves would be completely expended by 1980, 4 years away at that time. Hmmm, I'm a little skeptical about these claims of running out of oil, advances in technology continue to find new reserves and find ways of extracting oil that was considered unrecoverable in the past.

IMO, the free market is the engine that will drive our energy supplies.

If oil becomes more scarce, it will become more expensive (supply vs demand), the greater cost will drive the recovery of more expensive oil that was considered impractical/cost prohibited in the past. As well, it will drive alternative fuel development and supply. You don't think private investment won't be available for a viable alternative that can be brought to market as an alternative to $6 a gallon gasoline? You'd make a fortune overnight.

Not against some government funded research to perhaps speed the process along abit, BUT, this is a slippery slope, government provided alternatives will be driven by politics, NOT the free market. This is how we ended up with ethanol that is far more expensive than gasoline, but is subsidized by us tax payers so that it can be required by law to be used, and be less effective in it use. :roll:

Our current problem with Oil is arguably the result of government interference in the free markets. If you think "BIG OIL" is ripping you off? Thank the government for creating so many barriers to competition, that they all merged into a few huge companies, with almost no competition. Do the math and find that even at $100 a barrel gasoline should cost $2.00 a gallon. Thank government restrictions on Refineries that create the shortages that drive up prices of refined products. As well, that bottle neck drives up the price from speculators on the market. If there were no bottle necks and speculators, price would probably still be down around $75, maybe even $50 a barrel.

I'm NOT some radical libertarian, that believe the government should DO nothing at all. BUT, there has to be a balance, and if you look close it is way out of whack with the government restrictions and interference imposed that stifle competition, create shortages and drive up prices.

Of course, if you think its all the fault of big evil oil corporations and we can fix it with promises from politicians that they will punish those evil big corporations, and make everything right more BIG Government Solutions, please do everyone a favor, and do NOT vote.

 

[falcon556]

Ok, German technological advances during WWII have often been vastly exaggerated. Yes, they were using synthetic rubber/oil/fuel, coal converted fuel, working on a Nuclear Weapon. We also made a lot of advances.

My point is that we are not running out of oil unless we decide to do so.
In fact some guy from Tulsa built a factory that uses improved new methods to turn coal to oil.

Oil only lasting 30 years, as a child I had text books in elementary school stating that oil reserves would be completely expended by 1980, 4 years away at that time.

Recent research shows that Iraq has more oil than Saudi, the Russians have more than the Saudis and right now are the #1 producers, more found by Brazil, even more up in the north pole.

IMO, the free market is the engine that will drive our energy supplies.

Sorry, I don't buy the free market theory, too many mergers in the last few years destroyed competition.

Not against some government funded research to perhaps speed the process along a bit, BUT, this is a slippery slope, government provided alternatives will be driven by politics, NOT the free market. This is how we ended up with ethanol that is far more expensive than gasoline, but is subsidized by us tax payers so that it can be required by law to be used, and be less effective in it use. :roll:

I cannot believe that they are getting away with it.

Our current problem with Oil is arguably the result of government interference in the free markets. If you think "BIG OIL" is ripping you off?

Yes, it is a convenient arrangement, the oil companies pump millions of $$ in to Congress, I bet being the good businessmen they are they get something in return. Like legislation that restricts oil production and refining.
Unless of course you believe that the multinational oil corporations that control our energy pay the big bucks to our politicians because they are patriotic. All these restrictions holding the US hostage to some of the most unstable regimes in the world, are creating the best profits ever for big oil.
Unless of course we believe that they are looking out for us and ethanol actually makes sense and we are too stupid to figure it out.
It is hard not to see a pattern where the government deliberately restricts access to energy regardless of the type (nuclear, hydroelectric, refineries, coal, gas etc.) and even harder not to see who benefits from it.

 

[TJ Rat]

I will bet the formula for artifical fuel exists and will be brought as a 'miracle product' the day after dino oil runs out. With all the synthetic greases and oils on the market, nobody can sway me to believe synthetic fuel - at an affordable price - is not in someones locker.

I would also wager Shell, ExxonMobile, ConocoPhillips, etc. have the formula, but they are guarding that secret very closely. Dino oil is just to profitable a comodity to obsolete.

 

[spyder6346]

Yeah, I just had the trailer on the way to pick it up. I don't get it, i have gotten better millage hauling loads before, but not like this.When I topped it off and I was shocked! I think its becuase of the weight pushing forword when I had the car coming back because of all the hills i was going down. I got way better mileage on the way back +3800 lbs.!!! But at 3000 RPM!

unless you had a large net change in elevation from one point to the other, you had to pull the car up the same hills you were going down, which would negate any savings you get while going down.

i'd say your fuel gauge is inaccurate. overall mileage for the trip seems pretty good though.

 

[RichP]

Of course, if you think its all the fault of big evil oil corporations and we can fix it with promises from politicians that they will punish those evil big corporations, and make everything right more BIG Government Solutions, please do everyone a favor, and do NOT vote.

Yup, thats the major problem, keeping government OUT of the market but with the fed and their new rules the govt has gotten it's nose even more into it. The problem is you have politicians looking for votes and the only visible means they have for showing they are doing their job is to pass legislation, thats their only product that they can show. They can tout 'See, I passed this new law on widgets' the fact that there are already 500 widget laws goes by the board and the statutes get bigger. The biggest danger we face today as a country is politicians seeking re-election.

 

[RichP]

I will bet the formula for artifical fuel exists and will be brought as a 'miracle product' the day after dino oil runs out. With all the synthetic greases and oils on the market, nobody can sway me to believe synthetic fuel - at an affordable price - is not in someones locker.

I would also wager Shell, ExxonMobile, ConocoPhillips, etc. have the formula, but they are guarding that secret very closely. Dino oil is just to profitable a comodity to obsolete.

There is a certain amount of truth to that, Bell Labs developed bubble memory back in the 60's but had no use for it but they patented it anyway and put it in the vault. Then in the 70's it was 'discovered' by TI and it started turning up in Navy communications systems and in TI portable terminals, about that time bell said 'hold on there, we already did this and have the patent and T shirt to go with it'. Many R&D firms routinely discover, develop and shelve things they have not a use for. A cheap synthetic fuel on somebodies shelf somewhere would not surprise me in the least. When I say cheap thats relative, when oil was $12 a barrel it may have been to expensive but at $100+ not so much. I also doubt that the oil companies could walk away from some of their contracts and I can almost guarantee that they do have long term contracts to buy oil, that I know from my father in law who ran Mobils Fleet for 20 years as well as being in charge of safety for the refineries and overseas operations. Even if they did have such a formula why pray tell would the bring it out, man they are making money had over fist now, why would they bring a competitive product out to compete with oil. IMO they wouldn't, it would flat out piss of the stockholders, not the mom and pop stockholders but the major stockholders that actually say how things are run.

 

[LVJimmy]

unless you had a large net change in elevation from one point to the other, you had to pull the car up the same hills you were going down, which would negate any savings you get while going down.

i'd say your fuel gauge is inaccurate. overall mileage for the trip seems pretty good though.

My trips up to Utah takes a full tank. Trip back from Utah takes 1/2 tank. The 8000 foot elevation difference has something to do with it. Maybe he has the same problem.

 

[LVJimmy]

I will bet the formula for artifical fuel exists and will be brought as a 'miracle product' the day after dino oil runs out. With all the synthetic greases and oils on the market, nobody can sway me to believe synthetic fuel - at an affordable price - is not in someones locker.

I would also wager Shell, ExxonMobile, ConocoPhillips, etc. have the formula, but they are guarding that secret very closely. Dino oil is just to profitable a comodity to obsolete.

I thought synthetic oil was made from dino oil just processed differently so the molecular chains were all the same.

 

[woodironman]

i drive a grand wagoneer with 360 and my xj mileage looks real good just remember there is alwayssomething worse on gas than what your driving. the best thing i have done for mileage is not putting your foot into it and just run along when you are rolling down the road and you don't have to push the gas feed

 

[falcon556]

please do everyone a favor, and do NOT vote.

I must admit, you are the greatest and the only one qualified to vote.
Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BillBraski]

People should stop voting against their economic self intrest, like in 2000 and 2004. Its so counterproductive it makes me sick.

We are seeing a new era of the early 20th century "robber barons" who slash and burn everything in their way to steal money from people (and sit on it)that think they have no choice. It happend in the middle ages, the late 1800's/early 1900's and its back agiain becuase of the current government. We need a modern "teddey roosevelt" to keep big buisness in check, not a group of elected people that deregulate everything so they can steal more money.

The bottom line is, speak up to this government. We all pay taxes, we expect to be represented. We need a modern "teddey rosevelt". We all have choice. People who think we don't, are getting more irrelevant every day for good reason.

 

[BillBraski]

unless you had a large net change in elevation from one point to the other, you had to pull the car up the same hills you were going down, which would negate any savings you get while going down.

i'd say your fuel gauge is inaccurate. overall mileage for the trip seems pretty good though.

I talked to the guys I work with and they said the extra "pushing" weight going mostly down hill helps and its not uncommon to get much better millage if your in the right gear at the best torque RPM.

I would notice when filling up or run out, if the gauge was faulty. Maybe its becuase the 4.0 is in perfect tune too.

 

[sjkimmel99]

Re: Back to gas saving tips

Nobody's mentioned attempting to change, even slightly, the aerodynamic shape of the XJ. The front "skid" is supposed to help by acting like a front air deflector around the steering and track bar linkage.

Another option would be to put in a set of wind deflectors around at least front doors.

The relatively square shape of the back of the XJ must have some negative effect. Wonder what a line of these things: http://www.airtab.com/ across the back of the roof would do? Some of you guys are OTR truck drivers. ever see anyone using these?
.

 

[sjkimmel99]

Re: Back to disputing gas saving tips

Also, fwiw, South Africa makes a significant amount of their fuel from synthetic oil derived from natural gas and coal:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/South_Africa/Oil.html

 

[falcon556]

Re: Back to disputing gas saving tips

Also, fwiw, South Africa makes a significant amount of their fuel from synthetic oil derived from natural gas and coal:

We have more coal than the rest of the world combined and lots of gas (including a recent huge gas discovery near Buffalo).
We also have lots of oil.
The government does not allow us to use what we have.

 

[Ecomike]

Back to the old discussion below:

I was just reading up on differences in different tranny fluids, got sidetracked on a "How fluid drive Torque converters work" page and it dawned on me that this guy was saying the fluid torque converters multiply torque (still trying to get my head around the complex fluid mechanics involved), but then I remembered everyone saying how important peak engine torque at some engine speed was to get peak MPGs, then 5-90 saying he gets better results at about 3000 rpm while many of us get best mpgs at 2000 to 2200 rpm.

Well IIRC 5-90 drives a standard AX-15 tranny, not an automatic!!!! So the difference may have something to do with torque multiplication in the fluid drive torque converters. Also we have 4 speeds in the AW4, and he has 5 speeds or gears, different rear end and bigger tires than mine.

Any fluid mechanics ME gurus out there than enlighten us on this issue?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecomike
Well, I am going to have to say that torque at the wheel (after all the gearing..... is also important, not just peak torque at the engine crankshaft. I don't know the math on this off the top of my head, but my highway gas mileage nearly doubled when I replaced my defective TPS. The old TPS was up-shifting the AW4 to the next higher gear at 1400 rpm, even at WOT. The new TPS is up-shifting it at 2200 to 2400 rpm at 1/10 th to 1/4th of WOT from a dead stop to 60 mph.

5-90, I tried your 3000 engine rpm highway, constant speed run at 60 mph in third gear (AW4) for 30 miles of a normal freeway commute in a normal 231.8 miles tank of gas. My prior 7 tanks of gas all ran about 15.5 mpgs +/- about .1 mpg, this last run dropped to 14.41 mpg, a huge drop considering I only tried the 3000 rpm, 60 mph, 3rd gear run for only 30 of the 131.8 miles!

In fact I could see the gas gauge moving, while the engine sucked gas at 3000 rpm!!!!!! I could actually se it eating a good 3 gallons in 30 miles!!!!! If I had to hazard a guess, I would have to say that mine gets nearly twice the mileage in 4th at 2300 and 60 mph as it does at 3000 rpm at 60 mph in third gear.

Please excuss me if I don't test an entire tank of gas at 3000 rpm on mine!

Quote 5-90:
Interesting. Given the same construction, the torque output of individual engines becomes a function of crankshaft speed (assuming same head/cam/breathing/...)

I get best mileage cruising at 2800-2900rpm crankshaft speed with 31s and 3.07. I still want to change the gearing (it really doesn't sit well with the transmission, it's a horrible complement to the tyres as well...) and that should end up changing the relationship between cruise speeds and crankshaft RPM - I'll have to find my notes.

However, if you were to do a longer-term test to find your "sweet spot" for crankshaft speed at cruise, I'd like to see your notes when you were done.

 

[Ecomike]

Here is what I was reading about torque converters:

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/223a.cfm

 

[tbburg]

Around town, I pretty much ignore mileage, but when I go on a long trip, I tend to get anal about it. I take notes, keep receipts, check Odometer readings against highway mile markers. Guess average speed and compare against actual time/speed/distance. Eventually I start to guess how much gas I'm using, and how much will go in the tank at any given stop.
I do this when I'm driving alone. I suspect if I tried it with anyone else in the car, they'd kill me, or I'd kill them.
Anyway, A few years ago('04) I drove across country towing a 12-1400lb trailer. I don't have my notes any more, but:
At freeway speed(65-75) 18-19mpg
Secondary road-2lane(45-55) 20-21mpg.

Edit: That's with 225-75, 15" tires on stock rims, 3.55gears, automatic, 87 octane, Mobil-1 synthetic in engine and difs