Disappearing Coolant?

[Kingkong0192]

I like it. Kills time and keeps me from doing things I might regret later. You learn a lot too. At this point I honestly don't even trust mechanics. I trust the words of people on offroading forums way before I'd even think about trusting a mechanic.

Tell me about it. It's quite an ordeal.

Anyways.

Pulled the head off.

Head gasket looks fine. At least from what i can tell. I don't see any huge parts of it missing.

I'm assuming it's normal for coolant to be in the lower end of the engine. I set it on my bench, and am going to degrease it to hell and back looking for cracks.

If i don't see any cracks, and my headgakset looks fine, i'm going to be super confused as to how all that milkshake stuff got on my valve cover and even more confused on where all my coolant is going.

Just went back out there and spun my crankshaft some more. The 3rd and 4th cylinders literally go together in pattern. They would fire at the same time. Is this normal? I don't know. I made a video of it, and it's uploading to youtube now. You can see in the first picture that they're both at the top, and then when i crank the shaft, they both go down at the same speed, come back up at the same time, etc etc. All the others go at different speeds.

Here's a video so i don't clog this thread up with pictures. Shows everything.

I'd assume if this wasn't normal i'd have more of a problem than unexplained coolant loss, but i can't be sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0a4sHSk18s

 

[heyhar]

I'm assuming it's normal for coolant to be in the lower end of the engine.

Yes. There are coolant passages in the block. The pump is on the front of the block.

The 3rd and 4th cylinders literally go together in pattern. They would fire at the same time. Is this normal?

If you take notice, the pistons go up and down in pairs. Three and four happen to go up and down at the same time, but are on different cycles. That is controlled by the cam. While coming up to TDC, one would be on the compression stroke, while the other would be pushing out the spent charge, or on the exhaust stroke.

Looking at the milky goo on the filler cap, I was tempted to suggest that yes, there's a lot of moisture in the crankcase, and it could be due to lots of short trips, or possibly a stuck-open Tstat, as you mentioned little heat. But than there's the green coolant residue in with the rocker arms. Telltale sign of a crack from the coolant passage.

 

[Kingkong0192]

Yes. There are coolant passages in the block. The pump is on the front of the block.





If you take notice, the pistons go up and down in pairs. Three and four happen to go up and down at the same time, but are on different cycles. That is controlled by the cam. While coming up to TDC, one would be on the compression stroke, while the other would be pushing out the spent charge, or on the exhaust stroke.

Looking at the milky goo on the filler cap, I was tempted to suggest that yes, there's a lot of moisture in the crankcase, and it could be due to lots of short trips, or possibly a stuck-open Tstat, as you mentioned little heat. But than there's the green coolant residue in with the rocker arms. Telltale sign of a crack from the coolant passage.

I didn't notice. I'm going to go turn it more so i can see it first hand. Thanks for that though i thought something was seriously wrong here. Didn't even think that they'd be on different strokes even though they went up at the same time.

Meaning HG or head? I think it's possible for me to have gotten some coolant in there from when i pulled off the valve cover (thermostat housing hoses were removed and i might of bumped them), but i think i'm just making up reasons because i don't want to buy a new head.

I hate posting pictures on here, but check out this picture. It's my valve cover. It's totally milkshaked.

What would you do next? Send out the head to a machine shop to check?

 

[sandsgg]

So i wrote out a whole big speech on how a four stroke engine works and my phone timed out and i lost it so I'm glad you threw it up there heyhar

 

[heyhar]

you threw it up there

Hope I didn't get any on ya!

Well, you did say the head is off. I would have it looked at. Magnafluxed, even, if they still do that sort of thing. The head is in question, the hard part is done (it's off), so don't put it back on till you're sure.You're going to spend money on bolts and a gasket set anyway, so just go the extra mile, and make sure it's worth re-installing.

 

[heyhar]

I just viewed your video (I'm seasick now)! Anyway, there's no wat your eye is going to pick up a microscopic crack just looking at the head. Remember, when metal gets hot, it will change or distort, opening up a possible crack, closing as it cools. Also, there's np coolant under pressure circulating through the passages as it sits on the bench. That's why it needs to be checked, if only to dule it out.

On the subject of piston movement, you only noticed that 3 and 4 were moving in unison. Go back and turn the crank some more, and watch 1 and 6, and 2 and 5. You'll see the same relationship. And remember, as a pair of pistons goes through it's cycle, each one is on a different stroke. The actions are evenly distributed throughout the 720* of crank rotation that it takes to complete a cycle, thereby balancing the engine.

 

[gradon]

Leave that 9/16" in the box and use the correct 14mm(metric baby).

 

[Kingkong0192]

Just went back out and turned the crank some more and realized that you're correct. That makes me feel a whole lot better. Didn't even think they'd be on different strokes.

Brought the head down to Levines, and they are going to test it for me. Said they'd call me Monday. I told them i wanted it "checked for cracks". Should i have been more specific? On Monday they call me for a quote, should i tell them something else?

Does anyone have any recommendations on where to buy new head bolts from?

If my head is cracked, should i buy another 0630?

 

[Ecomike]

www.headbolts.com is the only place I know of

 

[Kingkong0192]

www.headbolts.com is the only place I know of

Head Bolts Ordered.

Waiting on news for head and we should be good.

Oh, and would you buy this kit for all my gaskets?

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...t-set-felpro_15780447-p?searchTerm=headgasket

 

[ihscoutlover]

Rock auto has them for $25. You should replace them anytime you pull the head just due to the pressure and time and heat they are torqued. Plus torquing them can and sometimes will stretch them. My head is likely cracked. I have put it under system pressure, and cannot find a leak, but after a trip to Louisville, KY it had an empty coolant recovery bottle, and it was at the full mark when I left, some 220+/- miles from home. I have the milkshake looking residue under the fill cap, however when I changed the oil last time, I used Rotella 15w 40, and a bottle of Lucas oil stabilizer, and I have the feeling that the Lucas is preventing the antifreeze from foaming up my oil right now. But it doesn't look like the oil is gonna be good for much longer.

Jeff

 

[ihscoutlover]

The Felpro kit is good, and it looks like it comes with the better rubber valve cover gasket, which is reusable.

Jeff

 

[ChiXJeff]

You should replace them anytime you pull the head just due to the pressure and time and heat they are torqued. Plus torquing them can and sometimes will stretch them.

This keeps getting said. NOT necessarily true. My 94 FSM says a single reuse is acceptable, mark with paint when reused. Obviously, don't reused marked bolts.

 

[alfman]

Being that the head gasket was changed already at 90000 miles I would just change the bolts to be on the safe side. I would not trust that the former shop painted the bolts if they reused them. Unless it is on the invoice that they were changed.

 

[Kingkong0192]

This keeps getting said. NOT necessarily true. My 94 FSM says a single reuse is acceptable, mark with paint when reused. Obviously, don't reused marked bolts.

I've read my FSM as well, and it says the same thing. My problem is that one of my bolts is totally shot. Threads are gone. Looks more like a sleeve than a bolt.

I also cut off the studs on top of the bolt head with a cutoff wheel because i didn't have a 13mm 12 point deep socket when i removed the bolts. I have since bought one to re-install new bolts, but when i removed it, i didn't so i was forced to cut it off to get my socket on.

Being that the head gasket was changed already at 90000 miles I would just change the bolts to be on the safe side. I would not trust that the former shop painted the bolts if they reused them. Unless it is on the invoice that they were changed.

I don't want to reuse the headgasket. If i have it this far apart, there is no way i'm putting that headgasket back on.

I Don't have the invoice either way.

Here's my gnawed up bolt.

 

[ChiXJeff]

Personally, I'd replace none of the head bolts, or all of them. And I'd always replace the head gasket if it had been torqued down.

The bolt with the stripped out threads would make me very nervous. Are the threads stripped down into the block? You should at least use a thread chaser, not a tap, to clean out any crud. The bottom of the bolt does look clean, maybe the block threads are still good.

 

[Kingkong0192]

Personally, I'd replace none of the head bolts, or all of them. And I'd always replace the head gasket if it had been torqued down.

The bolt with the stripped out threads would make me very nervous. Are the threads stripped down into the block? You should at least use a thread chaser, not a tap, to clean out any crud. The bottom of the bolt does look clean, maybe the block threads are still good.

I bought all new head bolts. I wasn't planning on re-using anything.

I didn't even check. Let me grab a bolt in better condition and try to screw it down into the block and see if it feels messed up down there.

What is a thread chaser?

Worst case scenario, i heli-coil the block and run my fastener into that.

 

[ChiXJeff]

A thread chaser is similar to a tap, but it's less aggressive. It's designed to clean out threads, but not cut fresh threads. If you can't find a chaser, I'd consider using the right tap but only turning it with a couple of fingers to avoid damaging what threads might be left.

You're already familiar with helical thread repair kits. I'd have no problems running a kit in that spot.

 

[heyhar]

This should go without mention, but have a service manual, or at least a Chilton's handy, to get the proper sequence to tighten the bolts. And, one should have RTV or some sort of sealant, as it goes through a coolant passage.

 

[Kingkong0192]

Going out to the jeep now. Will report back with information about the thread as to what kind of shape it's in.

I have a bunch of those coils already at my house if worse comes to worse.

Yeah, i have the head tightening sequence. Just waiting for my 1/2" Torque wrench to arrive in the mail so i can torque them to 110 ft/ibs.

I have the FSM on my computer (it's a pdf), but asking people who have done this is the way to go. The FSM doesn't give you tips or tell you easier ways to do things like a forum can.

I have some RTV laying around as well.

Here's the head bolt torque method for anyone else needing it;

Looking at the head from the driverside...here is the tightening sequence (start at 1 and work your way out)

12 8 4 1 5 9 13
11 7 3 2 6 10 14

step 1...tighten all bolts to 22ft/lbs
step 2....tighten all bolts to 45 ft/lbs
step 3....recheck all bolts at 45ft/lbs
step 4...tighten all bolts except #11 to 110ft/lbs, then tighten #11 to 100ft/lbs...

Dont forget on #11 to put thread sealant on it cause it goes in a water jacket!