Debate.

[bigalpha]

Libertarian is nothing more than a democrat that doesnt have the balls to call themseves a democrat.

By voting for obama you are voting for land closures, giving up your right to own guns and giving your hard erned money to assholes on welfare who wont get off there ass and get a job of there own.

:huh:

Libs are very similar to Rep actually. Libs are all about smaller government, the idea you are welcome to control yourself and your own property, and lets you do what the fuck you want. That's pretty much not a Dem.

By voting for McCain you are voting for not educating and providing teens with a way to prevent pregnancies, lessening the amount of money given to schools, and dumping nuclear waste into the environment.

We could go on and on and on.

For the record, I take offense to the welfare remark. My family used to be on food stamps and it wasn't because my Mom didn't want to get a job

 

[ECKSJAY]

:huh:

Libs are very similar to Rep actually. Libs are all about smaller government, the idea you are welcome to control yourself and your own property, and lets you do what the fuck you want. That's pretty much not a Dem.

You've missed the entire point of being a Libertarian. I think you had better re-investigate the definition.

For the record, I take offense to the welfare remark. My family used to be on food stamps and it wasn't because my Mom didn't want to get a job

So you're saying your family didn't have a backup plan? What would you have done if a Libertarian government had been in place?

 

[jpcherokeekid]

acctually McCain will be giving more money to schools, and using spent nukes to run more nuclear powere plants insnt dumping nuclear waste. sorry you feel offended but the fact of the matter is that 85% of all people drawing welfare abuse it. not pointing fingers at you or anyone else but thats just the facts.

 

[bigalpha]

I'm not sure how I missed the point of being a Libertarian? Smaller government, more personal freedoms. That's Libertarianism. http://www.theihs.org/ContentDetails.aspx?id=38

My family did not have a back-up plan. My mom was young and divorced. She did what she needed to do in order to survive. If Libertarian gov't had been in place, more private charities and organizations would have been in place. Now, would these orgs have been able to cover anyone who needs help, I don't know. Otherwise, I'm sure she would have made due.

While I agree a lot of people abuse the system I think it ridiculous to label everyone who uses the system as "assholes on welfare". That's similar to saying that "All offroaders destroy the environment".

If you look at McCain's voting records, there are a lot of instances where he voted against diverting $ to schools. Nuclear products are not sustainable. You can't just keep recycling the used fuel until there is nothing left. There has to be waste. I don't necessarily advocate the use of nuclear power as our primary means of energy. We need something more sustainable. Solar is a good choice.

 

[JNickel101]

I'm not sure how I missed the point of being a Libertarian? Smaller government, more personal freedoms. That's Libertarianism. http://www.theihs.org/ContentDetails.aspx?id=38

My family did not have a back-up plan. My mom was young and divorced. She did what she needed to do in order to survive. If Libertarian gov't had been in place, more private charities and organizations would have been in place. Now, would these orgs have been able to cover anyone who needs help, I don't know. Otherwise, I'm sure she would have made due.

While I agree a lot of people abuse the system I think it ridiculous to label everyone who uses the system as "assholes on welfare". That's similar to saying that "All offroaders destroy the environment".

If you look at McCain's voting records, there are a lot of instances where he voted against diverting $ to schools. Nuclear products are not sustainable. You can't just keep recycling the used fuel until there is nothing left. There has to be waste. I don't necessarily advocate the use of nuclear power as our primary means of energy. We need something more sustainable. Solar is a good choice.

Sure solar is a good choice...til the clouds roll in....

But go ahead and get on that technology. Best of luck in finding the thousands of acres you'd need to put up enough solar panels to equal the output of one nuke plant. I guess it would also create thousands more jobs for illegal aliens too - basically "window washing" to keep these things clean from dust and sand (because the best place to put them is in the middle of a desert).

I like the hydro ideas better...using tides.

But for now, I think nuclear is the best "bang for the buck".

But hell I'm no solar energy expert, maybe there's a lot on this technology I don't know about.

(This is the part where I'll probably get a bunch of smartass answers from "solar energy experts" telling me how stupid my response is)

 

[jpcherokeekid]

Look at obama's voting record, or should i say lack there of. how can you run a country by voting "present". the education bills for which McCain voted against were for programs that did not work and giving more money to supervisors and superintendents. at least McCain has the balls to stand up and vote one way or another. My wife is a teacher and Obama would force the schools to continue catering to programs like no child left behind, which hurt class rooms because you have to caudle the students that cant perform to there grade level, and should be held back untill they can perform at there grade level.

Solar may be a cool idea but it needs 45%more energy to produce solar pannels than the energy they will put back into the power grid.

 

[Unearthed]

Sure solar is a good choice...til the clouds roll in.. Best of luck in finding the thousands of acres you'd need to put up enough solar panels to equal the output of one nuke plant.

I like the hydro ideas better...using tides.

But for now, I think nuclear is the best "bang for the buck".

But hell I'm no solar energy expert, maybe there's a lot on this technology I don't know about.

(This is the part where I'll probably get a bunch of smartass answers from "solar energy experts" telling me how stupid my response is)

Not stupid, just uneducated. The thousands of acres comment is one often argued, for the fact that we need solar panels the size of Virginia to power the U.S. ... BUT what about all the parking lots all across the country? The square miles of open parking space, and general open lots is easily equal to the size of VA. Doesn't everyone who pulls into a parking spot look for one with shade first? What if panels were put up in this location first to power homes and then later have ports on the bottom of them to charge up your automobile while you are inside doing what is ever that you do.

Now the nuclear subject is one with the most dire consequences... First off there are the economics involved with setting up a power plant. Yes it is true that once you get a plant running that the electricity coming from it is extremely cheap but the initial cost of setting up a plant is immense as well as making the facilites to dispose of the waste (Yucca Mtn anybody?). Second how (once we finally decide on a good waste storage place for Class A,B,C and Greater than C ) will we make a warning system for people 240,000 years in the future, which is the half-life of Pu-239 (and that is the shortest of half-life's with I-129 coming in at 15.7 million years!)? The Egyptians tried to do it, but the British of course tore down their walls as soon as they go there. Your talking about containing waste with time scales that can not be fathomed right now.

...rant off:shhh:

 

[jpcherokeekid]

good point on nuclear but if you put solar pannels everywhere thats a ton of heat being radiated into the atmosphere and if you think the ice caps are melting fast now, that wont be shit compared to if half the country had solar pannels radiating that much heat. no body ever thinks about how much heat solar pannels produce and it needs to be addressed before this nation goes forward with solar.

 

[bigalpha]

Well said Unearthed.

What if we make every home responsible for its own energy? Put up solar panels, wind turbines, hydro and power only your own home. Use skylights instead of lightbulbs. That's the #1 usage of electricity in America .. lighting. Use Geothermal for heating and cooling. There are many options; these options will only continue to grow as technology advances (I"m not sure it's advancing as quickly as it should/can).

I'm not saying that solar is going to be our sole means of energy, but it should be a major factor.

It's not the heat being radiated outwards that's the problem. It's the atmosphere trapping in heat because of CO2 (supposedly). So, if we eliminate a huge chunk of CO2 producing cars and factories, that arguement becomes invalid.

Not to mention, if it seriously is a problem, create white/clear solar cells that have high efficiency.

The technolog just hasn't progressed far enough yet, which is a crying shame if you ask me.

 

[JNickel101]

Not stupid, just uneducated. The thousands of acres comment is one often argued, for the fact that we need solar panels the size of Virginia to power the U.S. ... BUT what about all the parking lots all across the country? The square miles of open parking space, and general open lots is easily equal to the size of VA. Doesn't everyone who pulls into a parking spot look for one with shade first? What if panels were put up in this location first to power homes and then later have ports on the bottom of them to charge up your automobile while you are inside doing what is ever that you do.

Now the nuclear subject is one with the most dire consequences... First off there are the economics involved with setting up a power plant. Yes it is true that once you get a plant running that the electricity coming from it is extremely cheap but the initial cost of setting up a plant is immense as well as making the facilites to dispose of the waste (Yucca Mtn anybody?). Second how (once we finally decide on a good waste storage place for Class A,B,C and Greater than C ) will we make a warning system for people 240,000 years in the future, which is the half-life of Pu-239 (and that is the shortest of half-life's with I-129 coming in at 15.7 million years!)? The Egyptians tried to do it, but the British of course tore down their walls as soon as they go there. Your talking about containing waste with time scales that can not be fathomed right now.

...rant off:shhh:

I bet the construction of enough solar panels like that would equal that of nuke plants. The main reason there is such a huge cost involved with nuke plants (as well as refineries) is the number of dumbass regulations that have to be followed, as defined by eco-hippies and the EPA. I'd be willing to bet that over half of them really aren't needed, and are "safeguards" in place for shit that isn't likely to happen (for instance - an emergency shutdown system in case a nuke plant in, say, Nebraska, is hit with a hurricane). Just stupid, irrational stuff put in place to make the construction so difficult that no one bothers to build it. Chalk one up for the hippies.

Also, with a network of solar panels like that - how would you protect them? You're now talking about a vital part of our energy infrastructure that is out there in the open, just asking to be vandalized by punkass kids or targeted by terrorists.

And I'll say it again...weather has no effect on a nuke plant...

I vote we use Nancy Pelosi's basement to store this spent waste....

 

[Unearthed]

looks like I am going to agree with you for once...almost. I stated the fact of parking lots because it is often overlooked being so mundane and ordinary, but I do not solely support solar. I think it will take a multifaceted approach to tackle the situation we have on our laps right now.

But your point about solar panels isn't entirely true either. You see they will absorb the heat and turn it into energy, they don't reflect an awful lot back in to the stratosphere/atmosphere. The only reason they would create more heat is if there were more particulate matter (read: greenhouse gases) to trap the outgoing rays in our protective shell.

 

[jpcherokeekid]

I vote we use Nancy Pelosi's basement to store this spent waste....

Id much rather shove it up her pompus ass

 

[bigalpha]

Part of the huge cost of building a Nuke plant is making sure there are safeguards in place the prevent the damned thing from leaking or melting down. I'd much rather have "dumbass regulations" involved than the 1 in a million chance the damned thing melts down. Chernobyl anyone?

If you built the panels efficiently and made them common-place and a vital part of our infrastructure nobody would steal/break them. Then it would just be another thing. You don't see people vandalizing substations now, do you?

If terrorists wanted, they could black out the US pretty easily. A pipe bomb lobbed over the fence to a substation would do just that.

Like I said, we can make each home energy independent. Make our form of energy abundant and easily accessible. Much unlike our current situation.

Stick the damned solar panel to a Stirling Engine. Two energies for teh price of one.

 

[JNickel101]

looks like I am going to agree with you for once...almost. I stated the fact of parking lots because it is often overlooked being so mundane and ordinary, but I do not solely support solar. I think it will take a multifaceted approach to tackle the situation we have on our laps right now.

But your point about solar panels isn't entirely true either. You see they will absorb the heat and turn it into energy, they don't reflect an awful lot back in to the stratosphere/atmosphere. The only reason they would create more heat is if there were more particulate matter (read: greenhouse gases) to trap the outgoing rays in our protective shell.

Okay....forgive me, but where did I say anything about solar reflecting anything back into the atmosphere?

I agree with you, its not just a one sided solution. I will have to find the article I was reading about the hydro/tidal power - I think it was up around your part of the country, maybe Massachusetts. I think as long as the moon doesn't get blown up, we'll always have tides

 

[bigalpha]

I think tidal power will be great, but not for mass producing energy for the US. Will be good for energy for those shorline states.

We should build a GIANT wind turbine to charge a GIANT bank of batteries. Have it all set up for the next hurricane.

 

[JNickel101]

Part of the huge cost of building a Nuke plant is making sure there are safeguards in place the prevent the damned thing from leaking or melting down. I'd much rather have "dumbass regulations" involved than the 1 in a million chance the damned thing melts down. Chernobyl anyone?

If you built the panels efficiently and made them common-place and a vital part of our infrastructure nobody would steal/break them. Then it would just be another thing. You don't see people vandalizing substations now, do you?

If terrorists wanted, they could black out the US pretty easily. A pipe bomb lobbed over the fence to a substation would do just that.

Like I said, we can make each home energy independent. Make our form of energy abundant and easily accessible. Much unlike our current situation.

Stick the damned solar panel to a Stirling Engine. Two energies for teh price of one.

Yes, a lot of the safeguards are definitely needed, but also, some are probably B.S., I'd be willing to bet. I'll have to do a lot of reading to see if my hypothesis is correct. I remember taking a tour of 3 Mile Island about 12 years ago. Wish I remembered more, but I know their safeguards prevented it from being another Chernobyl

 

[bigalpha]

Yes, a lot of the safeguards are definitely needed, but also, a lot are B.S., I'd be willing to bet. I'll have to do a lot of reading to see if my hypothesis is correct.

Yeah, I don't know a whole lot about nuclear power systems. I'm sure there are some BS regs thrown in for good measure. You think wheeling spots are limited now, wait till one of those reactors melts down :looney: I definitely agree that energy independence will consist of a lot more than just experimental algae and "more drilling".

JNickel - Cherokeekid is the one who mentioned global warming.

 

[Unearthed]

Okay....forgive me, but where did I say anything about solar reflecting anything back into the atmosphere?

Was not referring to you, but the one with the rebel flag as his icon.

Well I am going to take that you (JNickel101) accepted my points and agreed with them and move on to this round of enlightenment.

First I said that if we had the square mileage of VA in solar panels that it would power the ENTIRE country, not just that of nuclear plants in fact no where near.

I cannot believe that you mentioned a terrorist attack on solar panels when you are then one condoning nuclear power, something there is not clicking!!!

3 Mile Island (or TMI) was a utter disgrace and it could have turned into another Chernobyl. To make it simple nuclear power is the most complicated way we have ever developed to boil water, and this water causes immense amounts of pressure and some of the pressure needs to be let off through the form of a valve. This valve stuck causing pressure to build to tremendous amounts, while the person who was supposed to be watching this was waxing his carrot in the corner. Luckily the situation was caught before the entire dome blew its lid.

Waste storage is not determined by hippies, contrary to popular belief, but a team of law makers and more importantly scientists. That is why Yucca Mtn. has STILL yet to take off the ground because it is in damn horrible location.
1. It is not even U.S. land but in fact Native territory, that the U.S. only has grazing rights on
2. Its on freaking volcanic rock
3. You guessed it, it is a tectonically active area
4. Where do the predominate winds come from and where do they go? (They come from the southwest -low population and go to the east of the Mississippi - HIGH population.

Yucca Mtn was supposed to have waste storage set up on Jan 31, 1998 (this is already 11 years after the NWPA made an ammendmend to store waste only at Yucca Mtn.) and guess how many metric tons are in there today?

... if you answered not a single one you are right.

 

[JNickel101]

Was not referring to you, but the one with the rebel flag as his icon.

Well I am going to take that you (JNickel101) accepted my points and agreed with them and move on to this round of enlightenment.

First I said that if we had the square mileage of VA in solar panels that it would power the ENTIRE country, not just that of nuclear plants in fact no where near.

I cannot believe that you mentioned a terrorist attack on solar panels when you are then one condoning nuclear power, something there is not clicking!!!

3 Mile Island (or TMI) was a utter disgrace and it could have turned into another Chernobyl. To make it simple nuclear power is the most complicated way we have ever developed to boil water, and this water causes immense amounts of pressure and some of the pressure needs to be let off through the form of a valve. This valve stuck causing pressure to build to tremendous amounts, while the person who was supposed to be watching this was waxing his carrot in the corner. Luckily the situation was caught before the entire dome blew its lid.

Waste storage is not determined by hippies, contrary to popular belief, but a team of law makers and more importantly scientists. That is why Yucca Mtn. has STILL yet to take off the ground because it is in damn horrible location.
1. It is not even U.S. land but in fact Native territory, that the U.S. only has grazing rights on
2. Its on freaking volcanic rock
3. You guessed it, it is a tectonically active area
4. Where do the predominate winds come from and where do they go? (They come from the southwest -low population and go to the east of the Mississippi - HIGH population.

Yucca Mtn was supposed to have waste storage set up on Jan 31, 1998 (this is already 11 years after the NWPA made an ammendmend to store waste only at Yucca Mtn.) and guess how many metric tons are in there today?

... if you answered not a single one you are right.

Have you ever seen the amount of security at a nuke plant? Its more than what you'd see if we had solar panels just sitting around in parking lots...that was my only point.

But yes, I do agree with you...we need lots of ways enacted. I wish we'd build more of those wind turbines....they are really amazing.

They had another idea, blast the nuclear waste into outer space....only downside to that is, what do you do when the 1 in a million chance occurs that the rocket pulls a "Challenger" and explodes inside the Earth's atmosphere

 

[bigalpha]

Have you ever seen the amount of security at a nuke plant? Its more than what you'd see if we had solar panels just sitting around in parking lots...that was my only point.

But yes, I do agree with you...we need lots of ways enacted. I wish we'd build more of those wind turbines....they are really amazing.

They had another idea, blast the nuclear waste into outer space....only downside to that is, what do you do when the 1 in a million chance occurs that the rocket pulls a "Challenger" and explodes inside the Earth's atmosphere

You can breach a nuclear reactor w/o having to go inside. We have bombs that will carve it's way 100' into the side of a mountain.

You jut build the container like you'd build a nuclear reactor. Then, when it gets into space, you just aim it towards the sun. Problem solved. While we're at it, we can send rapists too.