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California takes a step backwards!

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Zebaru said:
Did they just open the door for polygamy?

I have always thought it would be the logical next step.

Marriages between siblings or any other close relatives (of consenting age at least) could easily follow as well...

The slippery slope argument. Any law, any right, can be argued against in this way, but there is not actually any reason to say that allowing one thing must lead to allowing another. The same argument came up in Vermont years ago over civil unions, the prediction that pretty soon people would be marrying their cats. It has not happened.
 
There was that one lady who married a dolphin...Can't remember where or when but it was within the past few years...:)
 
Matthew Currie said:
You may think you're not a homophobe, but your language says otherwise.
I AM a homophobe. There is nothing wrong with being one either, look it up. The politically correct "scarry language" brain washed usage of the word is best left to the pinko liberals.
 
Matthew Currie said:
The slippery slope argument. Any law, any right, can be argued against in this way, but there is not actually any reason to say that allowing one thing must lead to allowing another. The same argument came up in Vermont years ago over civil unions, the prediction that pretty soon people would be marrying their cats. It has not happened.

Not the slippery slope argument as much as a reaction to the 'one man one woman' law being part of what was struck down. Maybe this one just had to go to clear the way for gay marriage, and there are other specific laws against polygamy...

Though logically, I think pretty much every argument to be made for allowing gay marriage holds for most other non traditional marriages as well.
 
Captain Ron said:
Well lets just color you clueless.

What I read above is that you are unhappy because a perverted incarnation of the Howard Jarvis initiative gave you the power to legislate by ballot when you didn't think the folks you pay taxes to represent you are not doing what YOU want them to do, then cry about it when then normal course of legislation takes places, sometimes nullifying your participation in a waste of taxpayer money, and worse, thinking that this is some "normal" course of democracy in this country and start spewing monarchy, majority, and other third grade level idiocy. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

You do not make laws at the federal level by ballot initiative. But, apparently, some states think it's a good idea. I always asked, why the hell even have a State legislature then if we are going to do things this way?

I see a ballot initiative, I vote "NO" with a very few exceptions. Shouldn't be my job to spend 6 months researching every piece of proposed legislation the special interest sector comes up with. No reasonable person can do it. I've tried many times... the deck is stacked against you if you are not a lawyer.

You're probably the type that falls for the old election time saw about not being a patsy for the "Special Interest" groups. You know, that one that candidates throw out there ad nauseum during election time. Well, take a look at your ballot measure record. You stupid fuckers are the preferred henchmen for them if they have any chance in hell of getting the signatures. Saves them a ton of money too.

I always ask the signature getter's how much they're gonna pay me for my signature...

See, 99% of the population will vote on emotion and ignorance. You never read the fine print, and if you do, you probably accept it as scripture. Never mind that it takes teams of lawyers in most cases to figure out what the far reaching effects of any piece of legislation might have. So what do you get? Whola, another dumbassed piece of legislation that will come back and screw you in most cases. Remember the power deregulation thing? Look how that one turned out. Sometimes they come back in a big way like that one.

Take a good look at all these ballot initiatives... How are they presented... That's right, straight at your emotions, then cover with misleading or incomplete information. Get out there and vote!

I say the courts did us a favor on this one. Now I can see from the whiners exactly who you are... The voters of emotion and ignorance. Do us all a favor, stop voting unless you are willing to do what a congressman and their staff would have to do. Its a responsibility, live up to it, if you can't, get out of the legislation business, you shouldn't be there, you can't do the job, you're not qualified, and the rest of us can't recall your dumb asses.

:D

--ron

For someone who is so set against whiners, you sure do snivel a lot! I'm not sure whom you are talking about in your post. You rant on like a lunatic. Have a bad day?
 
I am in no shape or form gay but what harm does it do to anyone if a guy wants to marry a guy or a girl wants to marry a girl? I am glad California overturned the law; it is discrimination however you look at it. Why does it even matter to you if they get married? Does it affect you in any way personally; do you have to be a part of their marriage? Even if it does offend you what right do you have to not allow 2 people to be legally married? What does not allowing them to be legally married accomplish? Regardless they will still live together, and still do whatever else they were doing before hand but now they will have legal papers and be able to file taxes and get benefits together. I don't think laws were made to follow your religion.


Gay marriage does not bother me but gays having kids "not physically but by adoption or whatever they do" just does not seem right to me. I just see that as a strange environment for a kid to be raised in and a little confusing but what do I know. It is going to happen regardless and it is not going to affect me in any way so what can you do, its just the way it is.


Maybe California will be the first state to give us our rights back legalize marijuana also.
 
Majority Rule and Minority Rights
All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

Diane Ravitch, scholar, author, and a former assistant U.S. secretary of education, wrote in a paper for an educational seminar in Poland: "When a representative democracy operates in accordance with a constitution that limits the powers of the government and guarantees fundamental rights to all citizens, this form of government is a constitutional democracy. In such a society, the majority rules, and the rights of minorities are protected by law and through the institutionalization of law."

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/whatsdem/whatdm2.htm
 
Matthew Currie said:
The slippery slope argument. Any law, any right, can be argued against in this way, but there is not actually any reason to say that allowing one thing must lead to allowing another. The same argument came up in Vermont years ago over civil unions, the prediction that pretty soon people would be marrying their cats. It has not happened.

Yet.

I've watched the changes in the social acceptance of homosexuals. From don't get caught, through keep a low profile, through a kind of in your face backlash, to mainstreaming. It took about fifty years.

In the early 70`s we were assigned a social hypothesis to prove in sociology class. The method of proof was left up to us. My assignment was that homosexuality could not be a genetic trait, prove/disprove. The kneejerk logic seems simple, they can't reproduce so it must be learned or some kind of recessive that was unfathomable. I proved mathematically, that infertile females and males and/or homosexual pairs were necessary for the survival of the tribe. The proof was a small pamphlet, so I'll keep it short.
The logic thread was, that a tribe with too many children was unsustainable by it's population. Seeing as humans don't have worker bee's, natures answer was same sex couples with a tendency to nurture and random infertility. The math worked out, though my professor said I had a few to many variables for it to be accepted as valid, the string did appear to prove out.
The path sure didn't lead me where I expected. I just followed the math to the logical conclusion in the end.
 
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8Mud said:
Yet.

I've watched the changes in the social acceptance of homosexuals. From don't get caught, through keep a low profile, through a kind of in your face backlash, to mainstreaming. It took about fifty years.

?

The slippery slope being discussed was referring to polygomy, beastiality and incest.

Now, you are redefining it in terms of social accpetance??


You could similarly suggest that abolishing slavery was the start of slippery slope to the civil rights movement late last centruy... and then, one could readily conclude that such a slippery slope is a good thing.

I guess I would call it progress... a maturing society.
 
You know, I hardly ever participate in threads like this. Perhaps that's why I've got such a low post count here and on the other sites I frequent - sites about guns, sites about BMWs, sites about International trucks, sites about old Fords, sites about which is the best house paint or lawnmower to buy. But something about this particular one is just pushing my buttons, exactly as it was intended to do.

A few random observations, in no particular order:

1) As others have stated before me in much more technical, bordering-on-expert terms, this is not unusual. It's part of the legal system we live in. I'm by no means acquainted with the fine ins and outs of our legal and judicial systems, but this still seems pretty obvious to me.

2) You English majors out there need to expand your horizons and maybe start hanging out with people from different walks of life, people whose points of view you may not have considered. I would start with linguistics majors, if I were you - though the relationship might come to blows (you see what I did there?) if you start telling them that bullshit about how a word's original meaning is the same meaning it technically had when someone thought it up eons ago. The definition of any word is an iterative, neverending process - ESPECIALLY a word like "marriage," having to do with complex relationships and how they are viewed by others. The dictionary is full of words that used to mean different things than they do now, or now mean addiitonal things. Check out "liberal," "conservative," "queer," "gay," and yes, "homophobe" for starters. Once enough people think a word means something, it does. This evolution (oops, there's another one) is part of the beauty of our exceedingly complex language. My fiancee and I certainly won't get married in a fancy clubhou...excuse me, church, but I'm pretty sure I'll still considered us married. By law, no less. And I'm pretty sure most other people will, too. By the way, if there's a marriage of two ideas, does that have to be endorsed by and under the umbrella of "religion?"

3) On another linguistics note, it's amazing to me how quickly I stop giving credit to the opinions of anyone who starts spewing talk-show-host-isms (not a word, but it could be! Eh?). If you start spewing "the queers," "the wackjobs," "the pinko liberals," "the wingnuts," "the homos," "the Christians" - pretty much anything that starts with "the" and is supposed to encompass every single person from a certain walk of life - most intelligent people are going to stop taking you seriously. Oh, and "you people." That's always a good one.

4) In any group of people of the same persuasion, there are always the, shall we say, "more expressive." Usually these people are highly irritating. To me, when thinking about what's right or wrong on any human level, you have to be aware enough to know this and look past it. I'm not fond of gay pride parades either, and I find them obnoxious for the most part just like a previous poster. If I'm feeling a bit more charitable, they're entertaining enough, but nothing more. HOWEVER, this is because I, like many people, don't particularly care for the obnoxious element of any group. I'm easily irritated by people "flaunting" anything. I fully understand that for every funny dude marching in a feather boa and carrying a big sign, there are thousands of normal, non-attention-seeking people leading lives of all walks, just doing their thing, who happen to prefer or be wired for sex and intimate relationships with members of their own gender. It's those unheard-from masses of any group that you have to consider when you're forming opinions about almost anything in human society. It's just like how for every loudmouth bunghole right-wing crazy on the TV, there are thousands of quiet, reasonable, intelligent, conservative citizens of this country to whom gun rights, abortion law, and a certain perception of American tradition are particularly important. For every stinky dude with matted hair yammering unintelligible fight calls into a megaphone, shoving a clipboard in your face in front of the grocery store or state capital, there are thousands of people who work normal jobs, have normal families, and think that the US healthcare system needs a major overhaul, perhaps we should stop sending our troops into battle under extraordinarily questionable circumstances, and that our actions as a species can and do influence the way the planet changes. For every closeted child molester spewing fire and brimstone on the radio at night, there are thousands of people living everyday lives who just happen to believe in a certain path to rightness, salvation, goodness, morality - whatever - and choose to follow a certain set of rules and guidelines to get there.

5) So, as an example, what's up with people who dislike gay folks (I mean, "the queers") as a general group? You think that just because you personally are disgusted by the idea of getting blown by a dude (and I KNOW some of you are into butt sex, so don't feed me any of that bullshit), and because you see some folks on TV wearing lipstick and chanting slogans in floofy voices, that means that gay people as a whole shouldn't have the right to go about life in the same way you do? Nonsense. You think that two gay parents are going to "turn" their sons and daughters gay? Nonsense. And so what if they did? Personally, I don't even see why gay marriage comes up for voting on. Personally, I don't consider it any of my goddamn business who gets married and who doesn't. You know why? Because it ISN'T any of my goddamn business, that's why. Nor is it yours. Like so many other things in life, just because you don't like it, don't mean it ain't true, bro. It's just ridiculous the way people seem to think they should have a right to lord over other people's lives - I'll never understand it.

6) Don't believe me about the normal gay folks? OK, just like straight folks, some really ARE aberrant. Some are assholes. Some are corporate CEOs lording it over the little man. Some are dangerous criminals. But...some are preachers. Some are desk jockeys, some are parents, some are aid workers, some are...you get the idea. Some are like my cousin - a six-foot-five, testosterone-laden, fast-drivin' firefighter/paramedic/cop who has: personally rescued people from burning buildings. Snatched fishermen out of shark-infested waters in rainstorms in the middle of the night. Dived to the bottom of a lake to retrieve children from the oily wreckage of a powerboat whose owner was too stupid to give them life jackets. Protected the streets of his city. Invested wisely. But: has been known to use the word "darkie," and can be curiously intolerant for someone who's had to deal with a lot of intolerance himself. And pretty much defined the word "promiscuous" during his 20s. That's right, an outstanding and flawed citizen, like so many others. A 100% "out" citizen. And one who still wouldn't hesitate to beat the living shit out of you if you called him a fag - and if his little Thai sweetheart of a boyfriend or either of his ex-military, gun-ownin', very conservative, and rather massive brothers were present, you'd be SO done.

And do I think he should get married to his little Thai sweetheart of a boyfriend? Absolutely. They're planning to, and I certainly hope they have the opportunity, regardless of how unappealing I might imagine their bedroom acitivities to be. And you know what? They'd make great parents, too.

7) This is going to happen, whether you or I like it or not. Fifty years from now, 17-year-old students will wonder at the history books that tell of historic decisions to allow same-sex marriages, just as I wondered about an actual law having to be passed to allow women to vote, or allow interracial marriages, or enforce civil rights. And as for the slippery slope - well, polygamy makes me uncomfortable too, but honestly as long as everyone involved is cool with it and doing it voluntarily, what do I care? And beastiality, and incest? Seriously, folks? Let's toss out a little word here - just for shits and giggles, let's call it "consent" - and see where that gets that argument. Last I checked, rape was in no danger of becoming legal...

8) Jesus, it takes FOREVER to write a post like this! I'd never be able to even do it if I wasn't off work today. Maybe there's another reason for the limited post count, eh?

Stop oversimplifying, folks, OK? It's a complicated world.
 
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kristuphir said:
"the pinko liberals,"... most intelligent people are going to stop taking you seriously.
I did, long ago. Thank you for the compliment.
 
Clever. I'm reeling.
 
ocean_jet said:
?

The slippery slope being discussed was referring to polygomy, beastiality and incest.

Now, you are redefining it in terms of social accpetance??


You could similarly suggest that abolishing slavery was the start of slippery slope to the civil rights movement late last centruy... and then, one could readily conclude that such a slippery slope is a good thing.

I guess I would call it progress... a maturing society.

What's wrong with polygamy? Heck if the cat likes it why not? If the siblings are neutered what the heck, why not?
In fifty years or less they may all be accepted behavior, one mans progress is another mans,, I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I'm sure enough going to try it, it's going to be fast, I'll worry about the direction and landing later. I call it the rocket dog philosophy.

2v8mgat.png



Germany is a liberal democracy, there right is our left and there left is way left. There is a test case in court right now about a brother and sister couple, who have three disabled children, who want to get married.

As far a civil rights goes, sure sounds good on paper and actually just and fair. But realistically it seems to have polarized the races more than ever. When I heard about 92% of the blacks in North Carolina voting for Obama it made me sad, whatever happened to voting for the best candidate? Ninety two percent of anything is more than an informed opinion, there is definitely something else going on here.

IMO the grand social experiments have a way of backfiring on many occasions. I'm not saying they aren't just or even undesirable, but the results are more often than not, not what was anticipated or intended and end up being a perversion of the original goals.
 
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8Mud said:
I call it the rocket dog philosophy.

Again with the outstanding and flawed. I love it. :)
 
Just Google mapped Lake Elizabeth. Nevermind.
 
why does this bother people so much? why is it any of your buisness? if you are not gay this does not affect you at all.

people act like they made straight marriage illegal in favor of gay marriage.
 
Matthew Currie said:
I'm not going to weigh in much on this thread, but have one thing to ponder, because like you I find some things difficult to watch, but then I stopped and thought:

why should my comfort level be the rule that decides how other people live their lives?

You may think you're not a homophobe, but your language says otherwise.

No, just because I use politically incorrect terms does not mean that I have "An intense, abnormal, or illogical fear of a specified thing."

I also vomit if I try to eat tomatoes. Not ketchup or marinara sauce. Just raw tomatoes. I wouldnt say I have a fear of tomatoes. It sucks b/c tomatoes are really good for you - lots of lycopene.
 
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