Bad Fan Clutch? Sounds like a belt, but it's not.

[ptf18]

Cured my Chirp to Squel Noise this afternoon... The XJ went to the Junk yard....

No... What I found after replacing (mostly warrenty items plus my labor):

2nd New Gates belt...then

New WP (warrnenty)...then

A/C bracket with fan shaft/hub.....then

Idler bearing...then

Realized that the PS pump pulley was "wobbleing"....the

Installed a NEW Dorman pulley (son of a gun to install using the correct tools)
on a new PS pump (warrenty)....

Adjusted tension with my new KR2........

Chirp GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the PS pulley!!!!!

Next project.......

 

[PhotographerMike]

Re: Bad Fan Clutch? Sounds like a belt, but it's not. Maybe it's not . .

I think it's FIXED!

Mike

I may be a bit premature.
Started a bit of squeal in the heat of the day. At least I'm not the only one.

Cured my Chirp to Squel Noise this afternoon... The XJ went to the Junk yard....
No... What I found after replacing (mostly warrenty items plus my labor):
2nd New Gates belt...then
New WP (warrnenty)...then
A/C bracket with fan shaft/hub.....then
Idler bearing...then
Realized that the PS pump pulley was "wobbleing"....the
Installed a NEW Dorman pulley (son of a gun to install using the correct tools) on a new PS pump (warrenty)....
Adjusted tension with my new KR2........
Chirp GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the PS pulley!!!!!

Next project.......

Some of us are getting really good at removing the fan belt!
Maybe it will fix its' self. I'll check the P.S. pulley.
What's this "warranty" you speak of? Oh well, mine was cheeper and I don't need to deal with outside service people. Plus think of all the practice I'm getting . . .

I'm ready for my next project too.
I have an axle, springs, and bigger tires calling me from the side yard.

Mike

 

[ptf18]

Mike: THe warrenty I spoke of was the LIFETIME warrenty on the replacement parts Ive installed on the XJ since it was new. The 1st time I changed shocks in...1990 or so I installed LIFETIME warrenty Gabbreil (sp) shocks...at about $34 ea. Ive since changed them every 30k. Which means Ive used the LIFETIME warrenty...245,000/ 30k = 8x.

 

[PhotographerMike]

Update on the Mystery Belt Problem.

An update on the "belt squeal" mystery. History; New to me Cherokee that mostly sat for the last few years. Shortly after I started to put some mileage on it I started to hear a loud "belt like" squeal. I replaced the fan clutch, idler pulley, serpentine belt and water pump, checked the A.C. clutch and pulley and oiled the P.S. pump.

The squeal MAY be gone, but . .
After replacing the belt and driving around 100 miles. I heard a "flip ~ flip ~ flip" from under the hood. It wasn't a bird or cat, it was the INSIDE RIB of the belt shredding from interference on a pulley flange. Being cheap and in a hurry I trimmed the frayed edge and let my wife keep driving it to work (2 miles each way). I moved the belt forward on the pulleys so that it was in the proper groove and adjusted the tension with my new "Krickit II". Last night, before my wife drove to work, I noticed that the belt had jumped back to the inside groove, so I moved it forward (remember the belt is one groove narrower than factory).
When I checked again this morning belt had moved back again after driving 5 miles last night.
Moved it forward this morning, tightened it up and turned the engine over WITHOUT STARTING and the belt shifted back a notch on the balancer pulley!

The questions;
Was the belt making noise because of bad alignment ("fixed" because of the loss of a rib) ?
Could the PULLEYS be out of ALIGNMENT? How can I check?
The VIBRATION DAMPER (A.K.A., harmonic balancer) was replaced when the engine was rebuilt and still looks new, could it the wrong one?
Are there shims or other adjustments somewhere that could be messed up?
What is the distance between the back of the damper and the timing cover at 8 o'clock on the pulley (why 8 o'clock? because it's the easiest place to measure)? Mine measures 8 millimeters.

+++++++++++++
Some quotes from MY previous postings;
"The Jeep; 1989 I6, Auto trans., 165k miles, rebuilt engine 2 years, 1200 miles ago (YES only 50 miles a month). Just bought it."
"Power Steering pump bearing could be dry from sitting, can it be lubed?"

 

[corbinafly]

Re: Update on the Mystery Belt Problem.

An update on the "belt squeal" mystery. History; New to me Cherokee that mostly sat for the last few years. Shortly after I started to put some mileage on it I started to hear a loud "belt like" squeal. I replaced the fan clutch, idler pulley, serpentine belt and water pump, checked the A.C. clutch and pulley and oiled the P.S. pump.

The squeal MAY be gone, but . .
After replacing the belt and driving around 100 miles. I heard a "flip ~ flip ~ flip" from under the hood. It wasn't a bird or cat, it was the INSIDE RIB of the belt shredding from interference on a pulley flange. Being cheap and in a hurry I trimmed the frayed edge and let my wife keep driving it to work (2 miles each way). I moved the belt forward on the pulleys so that it was in the proper groove and adjusted the tension with my new "Krickit II". Last night, before my wife drove to work, I noticed that the belt had jumped back to the inside groove, so I moved it forward (remember the belt is one groove narrower than factory).
When I checked again this morning belt had moved back again after driving 5 miles last night.
Moved it forward this morning, tightened it up and turned the engine over WITHOUT STARTING and the belt shifted back a notch on the balancer pulley!

The questions;
Was the belt making noise because of bad alignment ("fixed" because of the loss of a rib) ?
Could the PULLEYS be out of ALIGNMENT? How can I check?
The VIBRATION DAMPER (A.K.A., harmonic balancer) was replaced when the engine was rebuilt and still looks new, could it the wrong one?
Are there shims or other adjustments somewhere that could be messed up?
What is the distance between the back of the damper and the timing cover at 8 o'clock on the pulley (why 8 o'clock? because it's the easiest place to measure)? Mine measures 8 millimeters.

+++++++++++++
Some quotes from MY previous postings;
"The Jeep; 1989 I6, Auto trans., 165k miles, rebuilt engine 2 years, 1200 miles ago (YES only 50 miles a month). Just bought it."
"Power Steering pump bearing could be dry from sitting, can it be lubed?"

There's about an 1/8 of an inch of space between the balancer and timing cover on mine.
Maybe the balancer is bad and starting to seperate.

Kyung

 

[wim hoppenbrouwers]

I had also a beltsound. After renewing everything The squel came back
It was the new Idlerpulley from crown. The bearing was without grease!!!!!:clap:

 

[PhotographerMike]

Re: Update on the Mystery Belt Problem.

Originally Posted by PhotographerMike
. . . . Moved it forward this morning, tightened it up and turned the engine over WITHOUT STARTING and the belt shifted back a notch on the balancer pulley!

The VIBRATION DAMPER (A.K.A., harmonic balancer) was replaced when the engine was rebuilt and still looks new, could it the wrong one?

What is the distance between the back of the damper and the timing cover at 8 o'clock on the pulley (why 8 o'clock? because it's the easiest place to measure)? Mine measures 8 millimeters (1/3 inch).

There's about an 1/8 of an inch of space between the balancer and timing cover on mine.
Kyung

Kyung,
The difference between the spacing on yours and mine is about the width of the now missing belt rib.
Looks like I'll be going to the O.C. M. & G. tomorrow!

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Muad'Dib]

The Jeep; 1989 I6, Auto trans., 165k miles, rebuilt engine 2 years, 1200 miles ago (YES only 50 miles a month). Just bought it.

I think the FAN CLUTCH may be going out. After the Jeep heats up some there is a high pitched squeal, that I can't pin point even with a mechanics stethascope, that sounds like a loose belt.
Starts out slowly with a "chirp . . chirp . . chirp" and as time goes by and the engine warms up, it becomes a steady screech that varies with engine speed. Idle, out of gear (1000 rpm) chirp and light squeal. Idle in gear (700 rpm) almost quiet.
When I drive it warmed up, it squeals loudly under acceleration and gets quickly quieter when I let off the gas, just like a SLIPPING BELT sound.

BUT, the belt is tight enough (and newer and retightened). I thought it might be the water pump or idler pulley, so I replaced them both, NO change.
Next I squirted some oil on the (not working) A.C. Clutch and Power Steering shafts. THE SOUND WENT AWAY!!

For a day or two . . .

The squeal is back and I don't want to replace more than necessary.

I searched "fan clutch noise" but this type of noise / problem doesn't seem to come up.

Thanks, Mike

I had this same noise, and what makes me think it is the same problem as you is the way you described it as "Chirp Chirp Chirp". I did all the things you described, and concluded that it was from the bearing in the alternator, although i wasnt "absolutely certain". I wanted to buy a higher amp alternator, but unfortuntely i was short on money. I didnt want to buy a replacement alternator because it was charging fine, and i didnt want to waste my money since i was thinking of getting a higher amp alternator in the future anyway.
So i removed the alternator, and i completly dissasembled it. (Be carefull when removing the "housing" it has springs that "push" bushings into the shaft of the alternator. I re-used mine because they had minimal wear, but you may want to replace yours. Also its a good idea to scribe a line on the side where the two halves meet, or snap a pic for orientation.) I had plenty of "Dialectric Grease" left over from my NSS re-build (which was well worth it). I put this grease in between the bearing, and the inside of the alternator. I wish i could describe it better, but once you get the alternator apart you will see there is a small crevice between the bearing towards the inside of the "internal parts" of the alternator. I also put the dialectric grease on the shaft that bushings press against. I didnt use alot on the shaft but i did use as much as i thought i could to fill the area between the bearing and the "insides" of the alternator. ( I really wish i could explain that better).
Now the hardest part is getting the bushings in the right spot. I used a sewing needle (all i could find), but you can use anythning that is thin and long enough to work. A Toothpic should work well also. If you look at the back of the alternator housing by where the bushings are you will see a hole. You put the "toothpic" in this hole while pushing the bushing into its little home. It sometimes can be difficult, but with patience it can be done. I found it easier to do the bushing closest to the hole towards the outside of the housing first, then get the toothpic lodged in the next hole between the bushings, and lastly all the way through. Once you do so, you can slide the housing back over the alternator making sure its lined up like normal (and not to jar the toothpic) and tighten it up. Then you can remove the toothpic, and you can imagine in your mind the bushings sitting flush against the alternators shaft. Put the alternator back onto the jeep, make sure the belt is tight (You shouldnt be able to turn the longest portion between two pulleys more then 90 degrees)(on mine its the Alternator and the AC Compresser) etc etc, and enjoy.

I did this procedure about a couple months ago, and still no squeeling. It may not be a "Correct" fix, and could be completely wrong, but it has worked exceptionally well for me. Its probably put on id say 500 miles or so. Not sure exactly however. I hope that helps someone.

 

[Ronbo]

I went through this a few weeks ago - chirping from the 150k mile water pump. Swapped the pump only to have the same noise.
Turned out the water pump pulley had a hairline radial crack just outside the mounting holes. The pulley was flexing and making the noise.
Never seen that one before.

 

[PhotographerMike]

Re: If it "Sounds like a belt" it could be one of MANY things!

Thanks "Muad'Dib" for the alternator rebuild info!
Very informative and should help a few people with one of the many XJ mystery squeals. "It may not be a "Correct" fix, . ." It was for you and that's what matters!
And, from me;
"What is the distance between the back of the damper and the timing cover? Mine measures 8 millimeters (1/3 inch)."

Quote: by corbinafly
There's about an 1/8 of an inch of space between the balancer and timing cover on mine.
Kyung

"Kyung,
The difference between the spacing on yours and mine is about the width of the now missing belt rib.
Looks like I'll be going to the O.C. M. & G. tomorrow!"

I went to the M.&G. and compared spacing after a very nice dinner, Kyung was right all along, belt alignment was causing my squeal.
**********************
Now for some final (I hope) observations;
I've been driving for the last couple of weeks with a spaced out harmonic balancer and a "custom" narrow serpentine belt with no squeals at all. I know the Cherokee shouldn't be driven with a failing balancer, but it gets driven under 5 miles a day.

I bought a new balancer from NAPA and was showing it off to a friend before the tear down and noticed that the outer lip of the inside belt flange was BROKEN OFF on opposite sides. The part was still in the original, undamaged box and packing. It was made in CHINA and distributed by DORMAN (same as sold at Pep Boys, Auto-Zone, the local independent parts store and??). From my metallurgical training the break looked like a bad alloy used for the casting.

Next I went to the local "Stealership" to look at the genuine factory part, very well made and quite different looking, made in Canada. Last price is $76.50, stealership wants list PLUS 20%! ($91.80) and offered to come down to $85 after I mentioned the list price, no thanks. Finally ordered it from Jack Miller Jeep (http://www.allchryslerparts.com) for list MINUS 20% ($52.80). Should be delivered in a day or two.

Now I just need to check parts, gather tools and get to work.

Thanks to all,
Mike

 

[PhotographerMike]

Updated after the "crash" because I had a copy.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

End of the MYSTERY SQUEAL ~ Sept. 11, 2007

Well I finally fixed the "Mystery Squeal" and what I did and learned along the way.

Harmonic Balancer went out which isn't all that bad.

BUT, when I want to install the new one using the bolt that screws into the Crank Shaft, the few threads that were left stripped out. Seems I wasn't the first to try to install it using the factory bolt and only a few threads were left and they didn't have the strength to hold, so out they came.

What I ended up doing to get the wife's Cherokee back on the road;
1) Buy a "bottom tap" and clean out the bad threads and add what I could to the bottom of the hole for a TOTAL of 4 THREADS left.
2) Buy a "Grade 8 Alloy Steel Hex Head Cap Screw Zinc Yellow Plated, 1/2"-20 Thread, 5-1/2" L, Fully Threaded" from McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com ). They may not have everything, but they do have 450,000 of the most common items in stock.
3) "J.B. WELD" the bolt in, let it cure for a day, cut off the head with an angle grinder (if you don't have one, you're missing out on a lot of fun).
4) Get my new factory Harmonic Balancer's "nose" shortened 20/1000th's so it will fit the '89 without having to pull the timing cover and remove the "oil slinger" that isn't used on newer engines and gently smooth the front of the keyway.
5) Install balancer using factory spacer washer plus a couple extra, well greased washers, all snugged down with a Grade 8 nut. Remove nut and extra washers, clean grease off and re-install nut to proper torque. I haven't yet decided how short to cut the bolt, now it sticks out about 4 inches and will be needed if I ever need to remove the balancer again. I run the factory splash guard and skid so nothing "should" come up and cause problems.

Some things I learned;
1) Before you start do your research here on and actually READ what others have done.
2) It's MUCH easier with the bumper removed.
3) Use a "Harmonic Balancer INSTALLER", they thread all the way into the crank BEFORE they pull the balancer down. If you don't do the work your self, be sure the mechanic uses the installer. The engine re-builder, before I owned the car, stripped out the first half of the threads.
4) There are many DIFFERENT things that can "Squeal" under the hood. I found mine thanks to several members and changing way more parts than needed, but I sure learned a lot!

Thanks all,
Mike

Help! Harmonic Balancer Bolt Stripped & Remove Oil Slinger?
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=929916

Search: Threads Started By: PhotographerMike
http://www.naxja.org/forum/search.php?searchid=1761230

end post;
Bad Fan Clutch? Sounds like a belt, but it's not.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=921771&page=3

12mm x 1.5 Long METRIC Bolt / Stud needed.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=929932

 

[xjjk]

Thanks for the major black thumb detective work, Mike. Looks like I'm gonna have a look see at my harmonic balancer :thumbup: