Another Distributor Index Question.....

[audioJEEP]

Firstly let me say g'day. Name is Jay and I'm from Australia and have just purchased my first Jeep. It's a 1996 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0, with 120,000K's on the clock.
Yesterday morning went to go out hopped in, fired her up and it was running real bad. Checked under the bonnet and noticed that the dizzy was literally jumping up and down, so I shut the motor off.
On closer inspection I found that the bracket had snapped and after pricing a new dizzy from a local Jeep stealership ($920) I decided to pull it take it to work and TIG weld it, turned out fine.

Now, have gone to install it and for reasons unkown to me I just can't get the old girl to start.
Have pulled the #1 Plug felt for compression rotated the crank pully to the 0 posistion, re-seated the dizzy but still can't get it going.
Also my wife unaware tried to kick over the car while at work and put the timing way out while the dizzy was out.
What am I missing here?
I also have the oil pump notch facing the 11 o'clock posistion, Have read over the indexing procedure several times but for the life of me I can't workout what I'm doing wrong.
Any ideas.......

 

[Kriph]

You might have the engine on the exhaust stroke and not the intake stroke, try rotating the engine another 360 degrees and reinstall the "dizzy".

 

[ghettocruiser]

You gotta find top dead center on number one on the compression stroke. there are a few ways to do this, but here is an easy one that Ive used before. Its by no means 100%.. But if you have an old push rod, or something similar you stick it in the spark plug hole so that it rests on the piston, and sticks out through the hole. Make sure its long ehough so it doesnt fall into the cylinder, also make sure it wont leave flakes or loose crap behind.

Then slowly rotate the crank til the push rod or whatever comes to a peak and starts to go back down. Back the motor up a bit and youre at TDC. To make sure you are on the compression stroke, just loosley screw in the spark plug so air can escape. Turn the crank til you hear a hiss. Put your pushrod or whatever in, then while turning the crank, the next time it comes up is exhaust stroke, then the following is compression stroke.

Then just insert the dizzy so that it rests at #1 on the cap. Dont worry about the position of the oil pump...make the oil pump match the bottom of the dizzy. Just use a big flat head screwdriver to line it up...

hope that helps...and Im sure others will chime in as well.

Justin

 

[audioJEEP]

Thanks for the quick reply. Okay, so what my understanding is that if I rotate it another 360 degrees, the valve springs should be relaxed instead of being under load?
Once this is all done then will it matter which way the dizzy is reseated?

 

[audioJEEP]

You gotta find top dead center on number one on the compression stroke. there are a few ways to do this, but here is an easy one that Ive used before. Its by no means 100%.. But if you have an old push rod, or something similar you stick it in the spark plug hole so that it rests on the piston, and sticks out through the hole. Make sure its long ehough so it doesnt fall into the cylinder, also make sure it wont leave flakes or loose crap behind.

Then slowly rotate the crank til the push rod or whatever comes to a peak and starts to go back down. Back the motor up a bit and youre at TDC. To make sure you are on the compression stroke, just loosley screw in the spark plug so air can escape. Turn the crank til you hear a hiss. Put your pushrod or whatever in, then while turning the crank, the next time it comes up is exhaust stroke, then the following is compression stroke.

Then just insert the dizzy so that it rests at #1 on the cap. Dont worry about the position of the oil pump...make the oil pump match the bottom of the dizzy. Just use a big flat head screwdriver to line it up...

hope that helps...and Im sure others will chime in as well.

Justin

Okay so your saying insert the dizzy and have the rotor button facing towards the #1 pin and just line the oil pump groove up to that same position?
Should the striker piece on the rotor button be facing towards the #1 pin on the cap?

 

[ghettocruiser]

Yes, once youve established that you are TDC on the compression stroke for #1, you will want to start trying to stab the dizzy in. You will have to turn the rotor slightly counter clockwise to start, so that after its seated, it will be in the right place.

On the cap, you find the #1 pin. Maybe make a mark on the dizzy body so you can line it up. If the dist. wont seat all the way, chances are the oil pump shaft slot isnt lined up. So just take a screw driver and give it like 1/4 turn or something...and try again. There is some taper/clearance between the end of the dizzy shaft and the oil pump shaft, so you just gotta be close. Also, since the 4.0 distributer isnt mean to be turned and is keyed, make sure you are dropping the body straight down and oriented in the correct position. You should be able to get the rotor dead on the number one pin with alittle messing around. The part of the rotor that carrys spark (striker) should be facing the #1 pin.

That should put you back into time.

 

[Dr. Dyno]

Firstly let me say g'day. Name is Jay and I'm from Australia and have just purchased my first Jeep. It's a 1996 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0, with 120,000K's on the clock.
Yesterday morning went to go out hopped in, fired her up and it was running real bad. Checked under the bonnet and noticed that the dizzy was literally jumping up and down, so I shut the motor off.
On closer inspection I found that the bracket had snapped and after pricing a new dizzy from a local Jeep stealership ($920) I decided to pull it take it to work and TIG weld it, turned out fine.

Now, have gone to install it and for reasons unkown to me I just can't get the old girl to start.
Have pulled the #1 Plug felt for compression rotated the crank pully to the 0 posistion, re-seated the dizzy but still can't get it going.
Also my wife unaware tried to kick over the car while at work and put the timing way out while the dizzy was out.
What am I missing here?
I also have the oil pump notch facing the 11 o'clock posistion, Have read over the indexing procedure several times but for the life of me I can't workout what I'm doing wrong.
Any ideas.......

G'day Jay. Since you're in Oz, maybe you've got the dizzy upside down.
Seriously, it sounds like the dizzy is nearly 180* off (the spark is firing before the exhaust stroke) so follow the procedure on my page to fix it:

http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/dist_index.html

You might not need to remove the valve cover if you can feel compression in the no.1 cylinder.

 

[audioJEEP]

Cheers for the replys.
Doc good write-up too. Everything is done, she has a beautiful idle between 750-800rpm. No lope in the idle or anything funny like that.

But now another problem as soon as she hits 1500rpm or higher there is a induction backfiring problem. Even to the extent it's shoots a small flame from the Throttle Body.
Also, that is in either forward or reverse, would a diagnostics tool be the best bet at the moment?

Anyone with any other ideas.

Thanks.....

 

[audioJEEP]

G'day Jay. Since you're in Oz, maybe you've got the dizzy upside down.
Seriously, it sounds like the dizzy is nearly 180* off (the spark is firing before the exhaust stroke) so follow the procedure on my page to fix it:

http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/dist_index.html

You might not need to remove the valve cover if you can feel compression in the no.1 cylinder.

LOL yeah Doc I was wondering why I couldn't get the dizzy cap to fit in such a small hole. Had real problems trying to re-seat it LOL

 

[xjtrailrider]

Cheers for the replys.
Doc good write-up too. Everything is done, she has a beautiful idle between 750-800rpm. No lope in the idle or anything funny like that.

But now another problem as soon as she hits 1500rpm or higher there is a induction backfiring problem. Even to the extent it's shoots a small flame from the Throttle Body.
Also, that is in either forward or reverse, would a diagnostics tool be the best bet at the moment?

Anyone with any other ideas.

Thanks.....

Sounds like to me you are still off a tooth, its probably too far advanced. Try backing it off a tooth and see how it does.

 

[audioJEEP]

Sounds like to me you are still off a tooth, its probably too far advanced. Try backing it off a tooth and see how it does.

Cool what is the easiest way to do this?

 

[xjtrailrider]

Get it reindexed to #1 TDC and then pull the dizzy and back it up one tooth(counterclockwise). If that doesn't work advance it one tooth past the position that it is now. Its off a tooth one way or the other if it will not take any throttle, but I feel very confident that is advanced too far one tooth.

 

[OverlandZJ]

It's been awhile since i dropped in a 4.0L distributor, from memory you cant really drop it in wrong as it index's to the block ...correct?

If it's backfiring indicating an issue with timing wouldnt that indicate the crank was not lined up on 0 exactly...making it a few degrees off? Jay, are you bumping the ignition to bring it around or using a ratchet and turning by hand?

Or i suppose the timing chain could have jumped a gear on the camshaft gear?

G'Day Jay, welcome to .

 

[audioJEEP]

It's been awhile since i dropped in a 4.0L distributor, from memory you cant really drop it in wrong as it index's to the block ...correct?

If it's backfiring indicating an issue with timing wouldnt that indicate the crank was not lined up on 0 exactly...making it a few degrees off? Jay, are you bumping the ignition to bring it around or using a ratchet and turning by hand?

Or i suppose the timing chain could have jumped a gear on the camshaft gear?

G'Day Jay, welcome to .

I'm using a ratchet and bringing it round by hand. Ah I'm stumped. Jeez I don't think I've ever had so much drama with fitting a dizzy and getting timing right!

 

[audioJEEP]

I'm probably starting to get annoying, but I have done it all over again from pulling the valve cover, getting TDC, notch to the zero position, lining up the striker on the rotor button to the #1 pin, all leads in the right spot. And have ended up in the same position again. Good idle but bad accelaration with the backfiring.

Will a timing light help with this type of motor?

 

[Ecomike]

I'm probably starting to get annoying, but I have done it all over again from pulling the valve cover, getting TDC, notch to the zero position, lining up the striker on the rotor button to the #1 pin, all leads in the right spot. And have ended up in the same position again. Good idle but bad accelaration with the backfiring.

Will a timing light help with this type of motor?

No. Unless something else is wrong you are off just by one tooth of timing on the dizzy gear location itself. Pull the cap, mark the spot where the rotor is pointing on the dizzy itself with a marker (screw the TDC procedure at this point because you are off by just one tooth on the dissy gear), pull the dizzy up and then reinsert it again so that the rotor now points just slightly counter clockwise (about 3/4") of where it is (or was) currently pointing, i.e. apx 3/4" Counter clockwise from the new mark you made. Then try it out. If that does not solve the problem try it again, except this time lock it into place about 3/4" clockwise of the current position. One of those 2 should be the sweet spot.

If those two do not work then I would start looking for a second problem some where else. Since it is a 96, OBDII model I would get scanned at that point.

 

[OverlandZJ]

Could the firing order be off? Did you remove/replace plug wires?

Wondering if the dizzy movement damaged something inside itself....

Can you borrow another dizzy to eliminate it's the problem?

 

[ghettocruiser]

Yeah do what the guys above said. Dont pull the valve cover off or anything. Just pull up on the dizzy so the drive gear disengages, and slowly turn the rotor while setting it all back in... you will find the next tooth. Try it like that and see what happens.

You cant install the body in the wrong clocked position, but you can have the dist. shaft itself off by a tooth or two.

J.

 

[Dr. Dyno]

I'm probably starting to get annoying, but I have done it all over again from pulling the valve cover, getting TDC, notch to the zero position, lining up the striker on the rotor button to the #1 pin, all leads in the right spot. And have ended up in the same position again. Good idle but bad accelaration with the backfiring.

You mentioned in your first post that the dizzy was jumping up and down after the holddown bracket snapped, so I think all that jumping might have caused severe wear to the drive gear. If there's excessive play in the drive gear, the spark timing will be all over the place and that could be the problem.
I suggest you pull out the dizzy, inspect the gear, and replace it if it looks anything less than perfect.

 

[Ecomike]

You mentioned in your first post that the dizzy was jumping up and down after the holddown bracket snapped, so I think all that jumping might have caused severe wear to the drive gear. If there's excessive play in the drive gear, the spark timing will be all over the place and that could be the problem.
I suggest you pull out the dizzy, inspect the gear, and replace it if it looks anything less than perfect.

Good point, it could also have damaged the shaft bearing in the dizzy so he should check it for side to side play as well.

By the way, rebuilt dizzies her in the USA at places like Autozone sell for about $79 US dollars, or about $100 AU dollars(?). Have you checked locally for a rebuilt one?

I would still try the one tooth back/forwards tests first as I had the same problem with mine. One tooth rotation of the dizzy fixed mine.