A new twist on frame stiffener's.

[Action Fab]

Edit: Oops wrong sub forum... Moving to vendor product development. Mods can delete this.

 

[MoparManiac]

I'm out of your demographic for customers since I fab all my own stuff and know how to weld, but I think price is going to be your biggest driver on this.

I also wouldn't be concerned with how many bolts you have (since it sounds like a ton!), as to where they are placed and what they are clamping on. Do you see any issues with long term hardcore use? As in, bolt holes wallowing out or anything? Also be interested in seeing what thickness plate you are using for each subsystem (skid, stiffener, track bar mount, etc.)

I think you're going to find the MJ is a LOT different than an XJ from the LCA mounts back, if you haven't already noticed this.

Looking forward to seeing it!

 

[Lowrange2]

It needs more bolts! It'll never hold up!


You'll have to charge an extra 300 bucks just for the hardware vs 12 bucks of welding wire.

Wouldn't the sleeves need to be welded in anyway? If not it defeats the purpose of running sleeves through the unibody.

Feel free to send me the beta version of the rear 3 link to try out.

 

[MoparManiac]

Wouldn't the sleeves need to be welded in anyway? If not it defeats the purpose of running sleeves through the unibody.

Not sure why you would think that?

TNT's bellypan used sleeves (at least my setup did with their y-link) and didn't require welding.

Once the clamping force of the bolt is on them they shouldn't go anywhere.

Basically you drill one side of the rail for the sleeve, and the other side of the rail for the diameter of the bolt.

 

[Lowrange2]

Right, I agree with the drill sizes. What's to keep the larger hole from sliding over the sleeve and buckling? Basically, only one side of the rail is sandwiched between the sleeve and the bolt. The other side is just sitting there with pressure on one side. But with 75 lbs of hardware I guess that wouldn't matter too much.


My Gen 2 RK LA kit required welding the sleeves.

 

[MoparManiac]

What's to keep the larger hole from sliding over the sleeve and buckling? Basically, only one side of the rail is sandwiched between the sleeve and the bolt. The other side is just sitting there with pressure on one side.

Not REALLY sure what you're asking here.

But my answer is clamping force.

:laugh:

 

[Lowrange2]

Two sides of the rail... The side with the smaller diameter hole is sandwiched between the sleeve and the head of the bolt. The side with the larger diameter hole that the sleeve slides thru only has the bolt on one side and AIR on the other side.

Reguardless, I like welding on the whole shebang!

 

[MoparManiac]

Two sides of the rail... The side with the smaller diameter hole is sandwiched between the sleeve and the head of the bolt. The side with the larger diameter hole that the sleeve slides thru only has the bolt on one side and AIR on the other side.

Reguardless, I like welding on the whole shebang!

It has the stiffener on that side. So the crush sleeve is pressed against the frame rail on one side and the stiffener on the other.

All about clamping force.

 

[Action Fab]

If you guys dont mind moving the conversation to the vendor product development forum. I posted this here by accident. I don't think I'm allowed to do what I did so I removed the question from this sub-forum.

 

[Lowrange2]

It has the stiffener on that side. So the crush sleeve is pressed against the frame rail on one side and the stiffener on the other.

All about clamping force.

Am I really going to have to draw up a shitty diagram in Micro Paint? lol


I'm talking about the INSIDE of the rail. The backside of the actual rail isn't attached to anything on the inside...

Clamping force works.

Action Fab, I saw nothing wrong with having it here. Granted there is a forum FOR your question but few will actually see it. You're in blue. Do what the hell you want. If they don't like it they'll move it.

Got any CAD drawings of this thing?

 

[MoparManiac]

Am I really going to have to draw up a shitty diagram in Micro Paint? lol


I'm talking about the INSIDE of the rail. The backside of the actual rail isn't attached to anything on the inside...

:laugh: I think we're talking about the same thing, except you think the stiffener is only going to be on one side of the rail.

EDIT: I think I know what you're saying now. When you crank down on the bolts with the side that was drilled for the sleeve, the stiffener isn't going to be clamping on the rail, but on the sleeve. That's why in my original post I asked about wallowing out the bolt holes with hardcore use.

 

[Action Fab]

Ok I'll put it back up...

EDIT:

Well shoot now I can't re-edit my post...:dunno:

So here it is again

I'm picking up my MJ R&D truck next week and have my XJ here to work off of already. So I plan to start work on my new frame stiffeners and "under armor system" some time in the next month. But before I go to much further with my design work I wanted to test this Idea with you guys...

Would you wrather the system be a bolt together, or weld on?

It would make installation more time consuming and labor intensive. It would also raise the price some. But I am thinking of making it an option allowing those with welding skills a way to get out a little cheaper.

I have a new stiffener design that plates the bottom, along with the inside and outside of each frame rail. These stiffeners have a 1" hole on 5 inch centers. Leaving 10 holes on each side of each frame rail for a plug weld... Or the new idea is I offer tube inserts that would sleave into each rail between the side plates and allow 10 3/4" bolts to clamp each stiffener to the frame rail and make the stiffener kit a bolt on.

Already being incorporated into the stiffeners are holes and sleaves for fourteen 1/2" bolts and two 5/8" per side that will bolt through the frame rails allowing my cage tie-in's, link mount brackets, and transmission crossmember to bolt in. That is per side, once installed there will be a total of twenty 3/4" bolts, twenty eight 1/2" bolts and four 5/8" bolts tieing the stiffeners to the unibody rails. If my winch bumper is used with the stiffeners there will be another two 5/8" bolts, ten 7/16" bolts, and six M10x1.5 bolts tied into the front frame rails. My front 3 link kit will also have a track bar mount that will slide over my bumper side plates and bolt into them along with the factory track bar mounting locations. This will then add another two bolts and two studs, then one of the 5/8" bolts from the bumper. The flat belly skid plate will then mount into each motor mount and in four places along the bottom of each stiffener... Thats another ten 1/2" bolts.

In all there will be 84 bolts holding together my "system" from the spring hanger forward (baced on my current design). The rear 3 link suspension isn't on paper yet so that number will still go up. The cage and axle mounts will still require welding (but I am even working out a way to build a bolt together cage kit). My goal with this design is to allow Mr. Shade tree, armed with a basic set of hand tools, a Drill, grinder and sawzall to build himself a solid framed and linked XJ or MJ with out any seriouse fab skills.

I'd love to here your feedback.

-Chris.

 

[Action Fab]

Response to the above:

Yes the sleaved would be placed into the frame and then the stiffener put over them to then sandwich them between the two side plates. If I were to use 3/4 bolts, it would have 3/4" holes in the side plates and 1" loles in the frame with 1x.120 Dom sleeves.

As for the frame becoming swiss cheese... It sounds like a lot but once layed out over the length of each rail there is plenty of "meat" still there.

With the rails being clamped on with so many bolts there won't be any way for them to move or wallow out the holes. The load will be dispersed between a very large area and a huge amount of clamping force can them be applied to the rails. This in it's self will keep movement out of the system

as for the MJ and XJ using differant frame plates... I know this and this is why I bought the MJ so that I could then build a system for each and keep as much of each kit the same as possible.

as for a huge weight increase from added metal. I will be using 3/16 as I do with all my custom stiffeners and suspension I build in house. My current stiffener design that I have built for the XJ is 95 lbs. and it welds on, the skid plate is another 50lbs and the bumpers are 30lbs. I figure the suspension brackets are going to be about 30lbs as well... So I am going to guess the total added weight to be about 200-250lbs. That dose not include the weight added by links or axle mounts.

Hardwear is cheap in bulk BTW and I am only looking at adding another 20 bolts, the other hardwear will be included with the other "kits" I plan to make available.

 

[Lowrange2]

:laugh: I think we're talking about the same thing, except you think the stiffener is only going to be on one side of the rail.

EDIT: I think I know what you're saying now. When you crank down on the bolts with the side that was drilled for the sleeve, the stiffener isn't going to be clamping on the rail, but on the sleeve. That's why in my original post I asked about wallowing out the bolt holes with hardcore use.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Lowrange2]

bumpers are 30lbs

Bumper, like on the front and rear? How'd you get a Bumper to only weigh 30lbs? Mine weighs at least 80-100 and it's only 1/4" plate! Surely I'm misunderstanding.

250lbs added weight ain't nothing. I bet I've got over 1000 lbs of steel now that didn't come factory. Easily.

 

[Action Fab]

Bumper, like on the front and rear? How'd you get a Bumper to only weigh 30lbs? Mine weighs at least 80-100 and it's only 1/4" plate! Surely I'm misunderstanding.

250lbs added weight ain't nothing. I bet I've got over 1000 lbs of steel now that didn't come factory. Easily.

Look at it an you will see, It's in the vendor ad section.

here is the link
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1069757

here is a quick rendor I did in paint.

The way it works is you first drill a 1" hole using a hole saw, slip in the 1x.120 sleeve. The sleeve would be about .095 to .120 nerrower than the rail (just enough for it to sit inplace while you slide the stiffeners up but nerrow enough to allow the stiffeners to clamp down on the rail... Then once the stiffeners are on the rail the hardwear is insearted and tightened allowing the stiffeners to squeeze the rails like a clamp. The bolts and sleeves will then locate the stiffeners and keep them for shifting any. Between the clamping force the bolts provide and the solid positioning the sleeves provide. There would be no way for the braces to move.

On another note... I could also add an inner rail with the sleeves welded into it. Then with 1" hole put in the inside plate and 3/4 holes in the out side plate. You could just slide the stiffener over the the factory frame rail and then place the slees in and bolt it together that way...

I'm still in early design stages. There are a thousand ways to do it, thats why I ask questions and test my products (R&D). If I'm starting from square one with my design I can add any option I want to add. Becase this will all work as a system, I can't start changing things once the first units are on the market.

My main goal in asking this question is would people like to see a "bolt on" stiffener that really works just as well as a weld on stiffener, brought to market?

 

[Action Fab]

These are pictures of my first run at the frame plates. Over the years I have sold a few sets, but I still have some changes to make and want to get everything perfect before making it an actual product. It takes the hump out of the factory rail and will give a nice flat surface to mount my other products to. This will in turn make the "Under armor system" smooth and square once installed. I am working in a way to get the LCA's up inside of the frame rails and the UCA frenched into the passenger floor board too.

What I am trying to convay here is that I am putting a lot of time and effort into the design of this system. It's somthing new and I for one am exited about it. I what to make sure is, that I'm on target with you the consumers needs... Not just mine... LOL

 

[MoparManiac]

I think it has serious potential.

The fact that it will be a system that can be upgraded piece by piece will be one of your biggest selling points.

 

[Action Fab]

I think it has serious potential.

The fact that it will be a system that can be upgraded piece by piece will be one of your biggest selling points.

That is my plan for all my new products. I think that giving the customer the option to upgrade and alter as time, money and needs come about. I have been in this game for a long time. But starting July of this year I shut down Action Fabrication and started ORS. My new business plan is to bring high quality inovative products to the offroad market that are inexpensive and allow the typical do it yourselfer to bring his/her rig to a more extreme level that is not yet possible by the products offered to the market at this time. I am starting with the XJ's MJ's first and will carry on into the other of jeeps line such as ZJ, WJ, TJ, YJ, CJ, and JK. I am still going to offer local fabrication, full builds and keep maintaining my customers rigs, which is where the fun in this business lies. But I want to gear the majority of my business further in the direction of product manufaturing. There are a lot of gaps I aim to fill.

-Chris.

 

[Lowrange2]

All sounds well to me. What about the lip that's on the inside of the rail? Seems like I recall RK using a 1/2" thick spacer there.