4-link or what for the Xota

[87xjco]

I'd like some advise, sorry for the long explanation, i'm hoping some of the people can help me brainstorm this



The Xota wheels really well as is with long arm front suspension and leaf spring rear, it climbs excellent at Moab and does well on trails like 21 road for having 35" tires

This video shows I really couldn't ask for a better climbing rig


I really shouldn't expect more out of it


There is a problem i'd like to improve upon though

Whenever one of the front tires drops into a hole or something similar, the whole body leans forward more than a XJ will (with almost identical lift, waggy axles, tires, etc.)

In this picture

you can see my rear wheel off the ground and the body leans alot, but when the XJ goes thru this spot, it doesn't lean near as much


This also hurts me when Rock Crawling, the front end dips down in some situations, and it's a struggle to climb up

I'm sure this is because I am front heavy, I don't have the weight in the rear to counter balance the front end like a XJ has, then again, i'm lighter then a XJ too

So i'd like to come up with a solution


I have full width Ford 9" and Hp44 axles to put in and replace my Waggy axles and I know that will help the stability, but...

I've thought about 4-linking the rear, and in some ways this seems like it would help, after all buggy's are 4 linked and they don't have this problem

Of course I know I may be comparing apples to oranges here

I am not experienced enough to know if a 4-link will benefit me for this problem (but I know it will give me better rear articulation, and keep the tires on the ground for better traction)

But if I allow the rear end to droop more, won't the rear suspension just unload more? and allow the front end to lean even more?

I also would lose the counter balancing weight of the rear differential, it would be resting on the ground instead of hanging on the leaf spring

Seems to me I have a weight distribution problem more than an articulation problem

But I don't quite understand all the geometry of the 4-link, if the Lower links are longer than the leaf springs, will this change the weight distribution and help me?



I am considereing just keaping the leaf springs in the rear and installing the full width axles, this should improve the stability

But if a 4-link will help this problem or at least not make it worse, I want to do that at the same time


So what do you guys think?

 

[Yucca-Man]

How 'bout adding some weight back there? Can't tell from the pic, but do you have a spare on the 'bed' mount? Put it out as far back as you can; those tire/wheel combos probably weigh what? 125-150 each?

 

[87xjco]

How 'bout adding some weight back there? Can't tell from the pic, but do you have a spare on the 'bed' mount? Put it out as far back as you can; those tire/wheel combos probably weigh what? 125-150 each?

Yeah the spare is back there, mounted low between the frame rails

I thought about moving the winch to the rear

Thought about having a suck down winch on the rear diff. also

 

[87manche]

I have the same problem with the MJ, and it still has the bed and such with short arms.

I just wheel with 300 lbs of spares and tools and it works great.

carry more stuff!

 

[87xjco]

I hate to add weight just to help the problem, I got no problem with moving weight around though

 

[87manche]

I was just joking about carrying more stuff.

I just happen to wheel with just a bit of everything, because I don't like being unprepared.

moving the tire is a good idea though.

 

[Dirk Pitt]

Put the engine back there and run flipped 9s.

 

[87xjco]

Put the engine back there and run flipped 9s.

Ha, I could just turn the cab around and drive it backwards, i'd be hailed as a genious!

 

[Matt S.]

Haha.. honestly I dont see a 4link helping you. PaulS has run leafs VERY sucsessfully for many many years. He has just put time and effort into tuning the leafs for his specific weight and what not. I see you having better luck this way. I recomend talking with Deaver to see how THEY can help YOU.


Matt

 

[xjaddiction]

First off, Great rig. I've always admired the work you've done with the Xota.

I had a similar problem with my MJ. A friend of mine came up with the grand idea of a double rear shackle, He used the MJ shackle, and attatched below it, an XJ shackle. Now these don't flex as much as Tereflex's boomerangs, as they don't allow the shackles to twist. But, they don't unload down hilling like the Boomerangs do either. The flex I did get was much better with the light MJ rear end. There is a piece of square stock welded between the shackle to keep them from locking on each other in static position. My friend really set this up well, as I've never flipped the shackles getting them stuck in the reverse. The leaves are stock MJ's with SOA config. So far this set-up works extremely well, and cost is minimal.

I think this would help you, but the real difference between XJ and Xota is..."The Frame"... You know how we get ripped all the time for our Unibodies? Well Body over frame doesn't allow the suspension to work like the U-Body. As mentioned above though, you can also tune your leaves for your weight and build. I would also check out AllPro off-road. They have some flexy springs for leaved Yotas.... I mean Xota's...

Pic of shackles

side view

Close up with some flex, not full flex

Real world flex

More real world flex

Worth a try.

 

[woodkrawler]

First off, Great rig. I've always admired the work you've done with the Xota.

I had a similar problem with my MJ. A friend of mine came up with the grand idea of a double rear shackle, He used the MJ shackle, and attatched below it, an XJ shackle. Now these don't flex as much as Tereflex's boomerangs, as they don't allow the shackles to twist. But, they don't unload down hilling like the Boomerangs do either. The flex I did get was much better with the light MJ rear end. There is a piece of square stock welded between the shackle to keep them from locking on each other in static position. My friend really set this up well, as I've never flipped the shackles getting them stuck in the reverse. The leaves are stock MJ's with SOA config. So far this set-up works extremely well, and cost is minimal.

I think this would help you, but the real difference between XJ and Xota is..."The Frame"... You know how we get ripped all the time for our Unibodies? Well Body over frame doesn't allow the suspension to work like the U-Body. As mentioned above though, you can also tune your leaves for your weight and build. I would also check out AllPro off-road. They have some flexy springs for leaved Yotas.... I mean Xota's...

my lil brother and I did the exact same setup with the homeade revolvers on his 88 MJ. he is still spring under on 33s and it flexes very good in the rear - actually better than my XJ. he does complain from time to time about the lack of weight in the rear - however he ran without the bed for a while and it was real bad, then we put the bed back on it it helps a lot.

 

[87xjco]

Wow that flexes real good, NICE rig!

I run XJ springs in the rear.

I was about ready to go with the 4-link, but the more I think about it, the less sure I am of how well it would work.

Maybe I can dial in a set of rear springs to give me a little more flex for the hard rock crawling. Put the winch in back, maybe the battery, and maybe lower my front bump stops a little so the front can't drop quite as much.

Then going with full widths should make it alot better and all alot cheaper than 4-link and coilovers.

 

[JAS]

In this picture

you can see my rear wheel off the ground and the body leans alot, but when the XJ goes thru this spot, it doesn't lean near as much

So what do you guys think?

Here is my .02...

I really like the Xota and watched your build up on the web.

In the picture how far off the bump stop was the drivers rear tire? I think with the stripped frame that you have that your rear leaves are a bit stiff.

If that rear tire had more (or used more) up travel then I believe the whole rig would be much closer to level for you on that very spot.

Moving your bed weight also I think will help but not as much as a little softer spring rate in the rear leafs.

It would not be too hard to pull a leaf out for a trip to do some testing.

More droop on the rear axle will not help the level of the rig. It would just let the passenger tire touch and provide some traction, but not level it out.

Softer leaves though will allow more spring wrap which is also an issue so it is all about balancing spring wrap, ride height, flex.


Good luck

Jeff

 

[Renegade XJ]

Looks like the front end is way too stiff too.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

I would do a double triangulated 4link rear. 14in or 16in 2in air shocks on the rear (set at like 6in of up travel) and a rear sway bar.

The links can give you a better fealing roll axis, you would want the lowers mounted high at the frame end not below the frame. The uppers would be like 4-6in higher at the axle end, if you mount the lowers high on the axle end, (above center line) the links will be flat.

flat angles will be good for antisquat and seperation at the frame end will give you a stable fealing. youll want 8-10in of vertical seperation between your upper and lower links at the axle.

links will be about 36-48in.

the sway bar will make the front do some of the work, you might want to go to softer fornt springs with more arch. the rear sway bar would help with the body roll you would get with softer springs.

 

[87xjco]

There's alot of good ideas here. Wow, I wish I knew more about this, never worked with multi-link suspensions much.

That's what I was wondering about with a 4-link, if having a long lower link, helps the stability, and I didn't know the term "anti roll axis". I was thinking more towards coilover than airshocks, but I don't know enough to defend one over the other. I have been looking at the available triangulated link brackets, and decided it would be double triangulated, if I went that route.

More good info. on the seperation of the upper and lower links and lengths

Hadn't thought of a rear sway bar, that might kind of tie down the rear frame on those off camber slopes, it could do what i'm looking for, limit sway.

Thanks Ashman


I see what is meant in the comment that the front end is too stiff. I was looking at it like the left corner of the body was leaning too much, because the spring is maybe too soft.

But that makes me look at it differently, if the springs were too soft, my right front wheel in that picture would be stuffed into the fender alot more. But now looking at it I realize that maybe I have a problem with the right spring keeping the body up or being too stiff.

There's been a small change done since that picture, it had 2" lift curry coils with tera flex spacers on top at that time, now it has 4.5" Rubicon Express coils installed. It's about the same ride heigth still. Haven't ran them enough to decide if they flex more.

Thanks everyone, I have alot to think about, any more ideas?

 

[87xjco]

Maybe there's no reason I can't do this in steps.

My XJ leaf springs bought a couple seasons ago, are re-arced stock springs with one leaf from the old pack added to the new. So I can easily take that leaf out and see what happens

Before I do anything I'll get some baseline flex measurements, and i'd like to get the current weight at each wheel.

Step 1 - Install the full widths and leave my current leaf springs in place, move the winch to the rear, and then see how it does. It's just two spring perches to cut off if I change to 4-link.

Step 1a - If it's close to working how I want, source aftermarket leaf springs and try to dial it in better. Add a traction bar to limit spring wrap (I do have too much now) If it's not close to working how I want, skip this step

Step 2 - Go triangulated 4-link, with a limit strap in the center of the axle, try that out and decide if a sway bar is needed. Figure out if coilovers or airshocks would work best.


Thru out all of this I need to evaluate the front suspension closely, maybe softer longer coils are needed, or maybe coilover shocks, maybe just bumpstop adjustments

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

I would do a double triangulated 4link rear. 14in or 16in 2in air shocks on the rear (set at like 6in of up travel) and a rear sway bar.

The links can give you a better fealing roll axis, you would want the lowers mounted high at the frame end not below the frame. The uppers would be like 4-6in higher at the axle end, if you mount the lowers high on the axle end, (above center line) the links will be flat.

flat angles will be good for antisquat and seperation at the frame end will give you a stable fealing. youll want 8-10in of vertical seperation between your upper and lower links at the axle.

links will be about 36-48in.

the sway bar will make the front do some of the work, you might want to go to softer fornt springs with more arch. the rear sway bar would help with the body roll you would get with softer springs.

Sorry typo,
"The uppers would be like 4-6in higher at the axle end"
I ment to say the uppers at the frame end should be 4-6in higher then the lowers at the frame end. the 8-10in of seperation is needed at the axle end.

Long links help keep the angle flat which helps ride quality(less bumpy), antisquat (lifting or bouncing), less rear stear (double triangulated will have the least).

here is where my rear link fit. realistically you learn alot about what would be ideal, make as many compromises as you can and build what fits. Each link design has a different feal, Combine that with a learned driving style from knowing how it will react and it all dosent matter much.
http://wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/rearlinks_196.ppt

Got this from "Triaged "

Excel 4-link calculator

Excel 3-link + Panhard calculator BETA Version




I suggested air shock becuase they are cheap. A 2.5in coilover with resivor would be alot better.

you could do front and rear suck down winches...
my PS rear tire was on the rock then I sucked up the rear axle to try and help moved the body to pivot off the rock.. I need a little nuge to get out.

but for side hilling, or steep hills front and rear suckdowns are fun to playwith and help alot and are cheap. 3000lb harbor freight winch will do ok.

 

[Caged94XJ]

After seeing guys with 4 link and leaf sprung I would go with a 4 link with air shocks. Here is a photo of Led's MJ with a 4 link and air shocks flexing.

 

[87xjco]

Thanks again for the links Ashman

I think I will end up with a 4-link in the rear.

Did a little wheeling this weekend and the front seems to flex a little better with the RE 4.5" coils in place of the Currie 2" coils and spacers.

It's interesting, I went over a rock that made my right rear tire lift off the ground about 8",

the XJ behind me running 37's and full widths took the same line, and his rear stayed down and his body was alot more level, but his left front lifted off the ground.

We both had our right front tires stuffed high into the fender

So it makes me think not having weight in the rear isn't all that there is to it, I would just be lifting the left front if the right rear stayed down.

4-link would have kept the right rear on the ground

I thought about a suck down winch, on that same obstacle, a suck down winch attached to the center of the housing probably would have leveled out the body a little