Utah Shooting

[stewie]

mines a usp compact 45. don't leave home without it. ........and an extra mag, tactical light, and knife.

good to hear.

 

[What Rd]

OK... Dumbass

I was carrying on a conversation with ECKSJAY that you dropped in on, and assumed a whole bunch, but here is the background anyway... I have recently taken up target shooting and I "kill" a lot of paper targets.

The folks at the range recomended a 9mm because it is more economical to shoot, bang for the buck sort of thing, than a 40 cal. At the range, a 50 bag of 9mm is $8 and a bag of 40cal is $9. So you shoot 8 bags of 40 cal and you could have had 9 bags of 9mm. Got it?

I expressed my sympathy for the victims and their families, and the next line was carefully worded. It simply states that I do not support laws enacted because of one-off occurances. This Mall Shooting will create a knee jerk reaction somewhere, and the result is usually some sort of proposed "law" to prevent this from occuring again. These, unfortunately, often pass because they are fed by popularity points and not reality.

Your question as to whether my conversation with ECKSJAY was meaning I was in favor of gun control was out in left field somewhere, and last night, you're right I was a bit rude to you, because I didn't feel like typing all this out so you too could become enlightened. How selfish of me

Fell all warm and fuzzy now?

... dumbass :rof: :rof: :rof: :rof: :rof: :rof:

Do you think the smilies and such make you anything other than a nearly illiterate and wholly inconsiderate moron? They don't, as far as I am concerned.
You don't know me at all. Of that I am certain. Another thing you either don't know or conveniently forgot is that this is a public forum. Any conversation you wish to hold without being bothered by others not accustomed to your relative inability to express yourself would be more appropriately conducted via email or a PM.
While it's commendable that you say you don't support laws enacted because of one-off occurrences, you failed to specify which direction you believe that tendency will lead legislators in this particular case. I would have expected someone from Wisconsin to be a little more sensitive to the fact that certain liberal apologists would view the incident at hand to be a civil-rights violation committed by the off-duty officer, if not an outright crime. As a resident of Illinois, the only other state in this otherwise great land that does not afford its law-abiding citizens any legal opportunity to carry a weapon in defense of their lives and families against the coddled criminal element, I found your statement vague and ambiguous at best.
If you believe economy is so relevant a consideration in training to be proficient at using a weapon, try picking up a few rocks.
Dumbass. (no smilie)

 

[WB9YZU]

Do you think the smilies and such make you anything other than a nearly illiterate and wholly inconsiderate moron? They don't, as far as I am concerned.
You don't know me at all. Of that I am certain. Another thing you either don't know or conveniently forgot is that this is a public forum. Any conversation you wish to hold without being bothered by others not accustomed to your relative inability to express yourself would be more appropriately conducted via email or a PM.
While it's commendable that you say you don't support laws enacted because of one-off occurrences, you failed to specify which direction you believe that tendency will lead legislators in this particular case. I would have expected someone from Wisconsin to be a little more sensitive to the fact that certain liberal apologists would view the incident at hand to be a civil-rights violation committed by the off-duty officer, if not an outright crime. As a resident of Illinois, the only other state in this otherwise great land that does not afford its law-abiding citizens any legal opportunity to carry a weapon in defense of their lives and families against the coddled criminal element, I found your statement vague and ambiguous at best.
If you believe economy is so relevant a consideration in training to be proficient at using a weapon, try picking up a few rocks.
Dumbass. (no smilie)

Well now, tell me how you realy feel
You called yourself a "dumbass" so I went with the joke.:dunno:
Since you demanded an explaination, I gave you one. It may not be to your exact liking, but there it is.

I'm not sure if I should bother going further, but here it is:

I believe most will figure that training with a 9mm vs a 40cal is about the same. 9mm used to be what the Police carried, now 40cal seems to be the rage. Identical guns, within a few grams of weight, are available in the model series used by enforcement agencies. What could possibly be wrong with learning on a 9mm and the relative "ecconomy" it affords per round?

I am dissapointed you do not understand my point about possible laws steming from this Shooting incident in Utah, but I can't make it more plain. I am not for "gun control" laws, they do nothing for me. However, we are talking about Utah, not IL or WI. A law enacted in that state will likely be much more restrictive that what they already have.

Where did you pull that Civil Rights violation thing from? I don't see a Civil Rights violation by the Off-Duity LEO??

 

[iluv83vettes]

your comment about the law made perfect sense to me. Maybe I just think the same way as you do and are the only other person in the world who does though. Carrying a .40 versus a 9mm wouldn't make that much of a difference if you are shooting someone (assuming that you can shoot well). A lot of people try to get bigger cartrides and bullets to try to compensate for their lack of accuracy like buying a HUMMER because you have a small... (im not trying to call anyone out here I hunt with a 7mm mag rifle and .44 mag pistol). I usually carry my 44 when I have a jacket on since it is hard to conceal it because of size but I also usually carry a smaller gun incase I can't stop whoever from whatever they are doing. To me it just seems that if you shoot somebody and they look down at themselves and see a hole they could put their fist in (assuming they could still move and see and think) that it would be easier to stop them or if there is more than one and you shoot one and his buddy sees a huge hole in his friend it might make him stop but what do I know anyway I'm just some Texan who likes my guns and bla bla bla

also if every person carried guns there wouldnt be shootings like this where one person kills 4 or 5 people because as soon as one person shoots somebody everybody else would (or at least should) shoot that person and you would never know if the person you are about to rob or whatever is about to shoot you. That is my thought on concealed carrying

 

[Dzl DV8]

also if every person carried guns there wouldnt be shootings like this where one person kills 4 or 5 people because as soon as one person shoots somebody everybody else would (or at least should) shoot that person and you would never know if the person you are about to rob or whatever is about to shoot you. That is my thought on concealed carrying

"An armed society is a polite society"

 

[What Rd]

Well now, tell me how you realy feel
You called yourself a "dumbass" so I went with the joke.:dunno:
Since you demanded an explaination, I gave you one. It may not be to your exact liking, but there it is.

I'm not sure if I should bother going further, but here it is:

I believe most will figure that training with a 9mm vs a 40cal is about the same. 9mm used to be what the Police carried, now 40cal seems to be the rage. Identical guns, within a few grams of weight, are available in the model series used by enforcement agencies. What could possibly be wrong with learning on a 9mm and the relative "ecconomy" it affords per round?

I am dissapointed you do not understand my point about possible laws steming from this Shooting incident in Utah, but I can't make it more plain. I am not for "gun control" laws, they do nothing for me. However, we are talking about Utah, not IL or WI. A law enacted in that state will likely be much more restrictive that what they already have.

Where did you pull that Civil Rights violation thing from? I don't see a Civil Rights violation by the Off-Duity LEO??

:dunce:

 

[ECKSJAY]

also if every person carried guns there wouldnt be shootings like this where one person kills 4 or 5 people because as soon as one person shoots somebody everybody else would (or at least should) shoot that person and you would never know if the person you are about to rob or whatever is about to shoot you. That is my thought on concealed carrying

Wow, gotta disagree with you there. This sheepdog's no farkin' hero. My responsibility is to me and my family first. I'm booking them to the nearest safe exit and covering our asses on the way. I'm wearing no vest and there's no badge on my chest. Alone or with colleagues, it may be a different story. EVERY SITUATION IS DYNAMIC.

What I think most of you are forgetting is that scenes such as these are NOT like the movies. You don't holler, 'Get down!' and have everybody hit the floor. People are running frantically in all directions, most notably (Mr. Murphy would concur) in the path of your drawn firearm. You may have the clear shot on the asshole, but some scared lady is likely to jump in the path as you pull the trigger. Do YOU want that responsibility? An untrained person (just because you're licensed to carry and have been to the range doesn't count) can be more dangerous in a situation such as this. Any Internet Rambo can post up about how the 'CCP/CPL/CWP holders' should have done something, when in REALITY they likely WERE on site and did exactly what they were trained to do. There's a reason they call it 'self defense'. Leave the hero work to the professionals.

 

[riverfever]

Wow, gotta disagree with you there. This sheepdog's no farkin' hero. My responsibility is to me and my family first. I'm booking them to the nearest safe exit and covering our asses on the way. I'm wearing no vest and there's no badge on my chest. Alone or with colleagues, it may be a different story. EVERY SITUATION IS DYNAMIC.

What I think most of you are forgetting is that scenes such as these are NOT like the movies. You don't holler, 'Get down!' and have everybody hit the floor. People are running frantically in all directions, most notably (Mr. Murphy would concur) in the path of your drawn firearm. You may have the clear shot on the asshole, but some scared lady is likely to jump in the path as you pull the trigger. Do YOU want that responsibility? An untrained person (just because you're licensed to carry and have been to the range doesn't count) can be more dangerous in a situation such as this. Any Internet Rambo can post up about how the 'CCP/CPL/CWP holders' should have done something, when in REALITY they likely WERE on site and did exactly what they were trained to do. There's a reason they call it 'self defense'. Leave the hero work to the professionals.

Well put Phil.

 

[XJSpencer]

I've thought about this a lot in the past few days.

There is really no way this could have gone better. This kid gets out of his car and shoots every person he sees. How long does it take you to see 9 people in a busy mall? The cop was the 10th person and the kid actually took a shot at him. Even though he may have been under armed, he pinned him down 'til Swat got there AND had enough ammo to kill the kid....Sounds like about six minutes from start to finish.

I know you would've had more rounds Stewie. It still would be hard to best that.

From what I can tell the first two were a Guy with his son that he shot in the parking lot. If he was carrying, It would be hard to beat a 12 guage at the ready...nearly impossible...even for Jack Ryan.

 

[woody]

Is it or is it not a fact that the shooter/kook(?) was a Bosnian Muslim?

Seems like if he was.. there may be a LOT MORE about this case that's not come to light yet? (Fear/unwillingness to push the panic button?) Was he just another of those disenfranchised "trench coat kooks" that had enough, or was he 'on a mission?'

Maybe since the perp is chillin' on a slab in the SLC morgue (which is exactly how all those kooks need dealt with) we may never know the whole story...

 

[Fergie]

Wow, gotta disagree with you there. This sheepdog's no farkin' hero. My responsibility is to me and my family first. I'm booking them to the nearest safe exit and covering our asses on the way. I'm wearing no vest and there's no badge on my chest. Alone or with colleagues, it may be a different story. EVERY SITUATION IS DYNAMIC.

What I think most of you are forgetting is that scenes such as these are NOT like the movies. You don't holler, 'Get down!' and have everybody hit the floor. People are running frantically in all directions, most notably (Mr. Murphy would concur) in the path of your drawn firearm. You may have the clear shot on the asshole, but some scared lady is likely to jump in the path as you pull the trigger. Do YOU want that responsibility? An untrained person (just because you're licensed to carry and have been to the range doesn't count) can be more dangerous in a situation such as this. Any Internet Rambo can post up about how the 'CCP/CPL/CWP holders' should have done something, when in REALITY they likely WERE on site and did exactly what they were trained to do. There's a reason they call it 'self defense'. Leave the hero work to the professionals.

Phil,

I do disagree on most everything in your post there, aside from two points:
-Family first, and
-Every situation is dynamic.

None of us will ever know exactly what went down, nor will we know how we will really react(compared to our thoughts of "This is waht I'd do"), until we are in a situation like that.

Your comment on the hero bit is interesting too. I'd no more trust a cop to do the right thing than I would myself.

Remember the whole Selfless Service thang?

 

[ECKSJAY]

Phil,

I do disagree on most everything in your post there, aside from two points:
-Family first, and
-Every situation is dynamic.

None of us will ever know exactly what went down, nor will we know how we will really react(compared to our thoughts of "This is waht I'd do"), until we are in a situation like that.

Your comment on the hero bit is interesting too. I'd no more trust a cop to do the right thing than I would myself.

Remember the whole Selfless Service thang?

One of the key words being 'service'?

Yeah, I remember it well. I also remember not being alone and being properly equipped to handle whatever was thrown in front of US. You're right none of us will know what went down, and that was my point. I said that anyone can sit and badmouth the off duty cop for drawing what was most likely his backup piece and holding a guy with a SHOTGUN at bay until his colleagues arrived (see first part of this paragraph), or slam the CWP holders for not 'acting'. The blatant ignorance in this thread is astounding. I doubt more than a couple of the armchair quarterbacks are anything more than turds who bought a $900 firearm but balk at the price of ammo. We're afforded rights to carry, but it's also my feeling that those who make use of that right need to obtain the proper training. Yeah, I know it's a foreign concept to run away from the fight...but isn't the object to get home alive? :eeks1:

 

[Fergie]

One of the key words being 'service'?

Yeah, I remember it well. I also remember not being alone and being properly equipped to handle whatever was thrown in front of US. You're right none of us will know what went down, and that was my point. I said that anyone can sit and badmouth the off duty cop for drawing what was most likely his backup piece and holding a guy with a SHOTGUN at bay until his colleagues arrived (see first part of this paragraph), or slam the CWP holders for not 'acting'. The blatant ignorance in this thread is astounding. I doubt more than a couple of the armchair quarterbacks are anything more than turds who bought a $900 firearm but balk at the price of ammo. We're afforded rights to carry, but it's also my feeling that those who make use of that right need to obtain the proper training. Yeah, I know it's a foreign concept to run away from the fight...but isn't the object to get home alive? :eeks1:

Not foreign in the least bit, and the Gunsite classes I've been to teach more than tactics, but also the mental/thought process of it all.

And don't get me wrong here, I don't fault anyone in this situation, I wasn't there and have no place to make any type of informed comments, my post was mainly me thinking out loud, just wondering about it.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Not foreign in the least bit, and the Gunsite classes I've been to teach more than tactics, but also the mental/thought process of it all.

And don't get me wrong here, I don't fault anyone in this situation, I wasn't there and have no place to make any type of informed comments, my post was mainly me thinking out loud, just wondering about it.

Yeah, my statements are all generalities...but that's based on training as well. It just kills me that people can come in and write a movie script when it's not what actually happens in these situations. I mean, if they're not going to go train they should at least read some Ayoob, Cooper, Hayes, Cirillo, or Taylor.

 

[Dzl DV8]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507

 

[ECKSJAY]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507

Wow... :gag:

 

[Dzl DV8]

Wow... :gag:

http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]

It all looked pretty professional.
No body armor, couple rounds left, I do not fault Hammond at all for running for cover.

 

[GSequoia]

My girlfiend laughs because I always carry a gun, knife, mag and flashlight, but will forget my wallet or checkbook.
I tell her "you never know when you will run into someone that needs shooting".
Bark,bark

No no no.

See it's quite simple. With the gun, knife, magazine, and flashlight you can easliy get another wallet if you happen to "forget" yours.

:eeks1:

 

[Dzl DV8]

No no no.

See it's quite simile. With the gun, knife, magazine, and flashlight you can easliy get another wallet if you happen to "foreget" yours.

:eeks1:

Now thats funny!!!!

 

[mackamitsu]

So who will sponsor me to move to Utah (not a LDS member) so I can escape liberal Canada????? Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Canadian, but my country is going to crap, and it looks like we are going to have Draconian laws if the lieberals get in power again.