**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[Bent]

Output control option:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=busFhbGwPLw&feature=related

 

[Ecomike]

Been thinking about your air flow rate analysis ( lawsconcl ), and more specifically on the low end near idle, and about the O2 sensor issue.

I am guessing that 3300 L/min would be closer to 330 l/min at idle (or is it higher than that?), in which case the 1.5 l/min would still seem insignificant, but from some of research I did it seems that the so called "stoich" mix of 14.7:1 for gasoline is a misnomer, in that the exit concentration of oxygen in a properly operating vehicle is about 5% unused O2, compared to the inbound 21% O2. In otherwords in the real operation the gasoline is a limiting reagent, and not the O2 in the feed, so it is not a true stocih mix, but a stoich mix that leaves excess O2 at the 5% level in the exhaust.

So they must be using 5% O2 in the exhaust (or thereabouts) as a zero for the O2 concentration in their ficticious 14:7:1 stoich analysis, or the 14.7:1 ratio just leaves 5% unused O2 behind, I am not sure which it is, I may try to calculate it later.

Anyway, my point is that the air feed is only 21% O2, our HHO feed has 33% O2, and some variable amount of unburnable H2O gas diluting the 66% H2, and 33% O2 feed, , so I am starting to wonder how those variables might affect the MAF sensor, ECU calcs and the O2 sensor now.

At a 3300/1.5 L/Min ratio it should not be signifcant, but what about at idle? And if the O2 sensor is tuned in at about 5% O2 as the 14.7:1 ratio stoich point, how many ppm of O2 is too high and too low on the O2 sensor to read. 5% O2 in the exhaust is 50,000 ppm. So, in other words is the 14.7:1 ratio for measured O2, or the 0-1 volt signal, +/- 5, 50, 500, or 5000 ppm? If the 0-1 volt span on 91 and newer O2 sensors is 5 ppm it would be very significant, if it is 5000 ppm it might not be significant.

It may be time for me to call that Bosch O2 sensor engineer and get some more answers and info.

Also, the unmeasured (by the ECU) fuel and oxygen and water feed from the HHO generator once burned is going to increase the ppm exhaust concentration of non O2 gases in the exhaust, thus reducing the measured, or measuable O2 gas concentration, compared to no HHO feed. This should tell the ECU via the O2 sensor that it is running richer, and the ECU should respond by reducing the gasoline feed ever so slightly. Unless the HHO generator has a vacuum leak or an intentional vacuum leak, in which case it would add more gasoline, thinking it is too lean.

 

[Harlee&Tahoe]

I haven't seen this before but its theory sounds like it may help those having O2 issues.
It's a O2 tweak and AFR meter you can make at home.
I've seen a kit for less than $30.

http://better-mileage.com/memberadx.html

 

[insanity]

Could there be a way to make a system that produces the HHO to the RPMs on the motor? So that way you would get the same effect through all RPM ranges like what has been reported at idle.

 

[Ecomike]

I haven't seen this before but its theory sounds like it may help those having O2 issues.
It's a O2 tweak and AFR meter you can make at home.
I've seen a kit for less than $30.

http://better-mileage.com/memberadx.html

This part caught my attention!

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Since installing this device and the steam injection our mileage has improved approximately 18%."

They are using steam!
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Harlee&Tahoe]

This part caught my attention!

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Since installing this device and the steam injection our mileage has improved approximately 18%."

They are using steam!
[/SIZE][/FONT]

I don't understand your response.
They are using steam! As in this doesn't apply or WOW They're using steam.

I didn't look at as in conjunction w/steam but more as a neat way to monitor AFR with standard O2 sensor and adjust accordingly all with things you can buy from Radio Shack.

 

[Ecomike]

I don't understand your response.
They are using steam! As in this doesn't apply or WOW They're using steam.

I didn't look at as in conjunction w/steam but more as a neat way to monitor AFR with standard O2 sensor and adjust accordingly all with things you can buy from Radio Shack.

Their O2 sensor mod gadget will not work on 87-90 Renix systems which use a 0-5 volt resistor O2 sensor. But it could be useful for 91 and newer models, although I think it would be safer to use with a wide band O2 sensor with it.

The steam got my attention as lawsconcl and I have been discussing how much of the increased mpg effect might be due to steam versus how much of it is due to HHO gas which is 66% hydrogen and 33% oxygen.

The steam would tell the O2 sensor that the engine is running rich and thus tell the ECU to lean out the fuel feed. The steam, up to a point (or a limititng feed rate) helps clean up the combustion chamber and helps the fuel burn more cleanly. So the question we have been analyzing and discussing is which one has the more significant effect? Go back and read the entire thread.

 

[Harlee&Tahoe]

:eyes:aperworkMy eyeballs hurt thinking about re-reading through this

 

[goodburbon]

Can someone with a working unit measure the current draw when its running, and maybe measure the gas volume output?

The draw, is dependent upon surface area of the plates, proximity of plates, concentration of electrolytes, cleanliness of plates, gauge of wire feeding them, material of wire feeding them, temperature of wire, temperature of water. Knowing the current draw at one moment doesn't mean you will know the current draw at any other given moment.

for example. when I first made a unit I plugged it in with a 5 amp fuse and promptly burned it. then I plugged in a 20 amp fuse and the unit ran fine for a few minutes. The fuse popped the next day on the way to work, and now I have a 25 amp fuse in it and lowered the concentration of baking soda. Current draw still exceeds the rated current of my multimeter though, so I have no way of measuring.

 

[Timmy2XJS]

iv been eyeball deep in this the hho stuff and there seem to be a shift to using white distilled vinegar. i dunno if that will help you out any. im goin to be butting one of these units on my 88 at the end of the month and goin the vinegar rout. ill share with the class my results when i get em



Timmy

 

[philip_g]

iv been eyeball deep in this the hho stuff and there seem to be a shift to using white distilled vinegar. i dunno if that will help you out any. im goin to be butting one of these units on my 88 at the end of the month and goin the vinegar rout. ill share with the class my results when i get em



Timmy

If I could build one for say, $20 I'll build one this weekend and fiddle with it.

 

[PuddinHead]

I watched a Vid on U-tube that showed the assembly of an hho generator using pvc pipe. One electrode was made up of an assembly of stainless steel washers and lockwashers on a stainless carriage bolt. The other electrode was a piece of stainless sheet metal rolled up and mounted to the inside of the pvc pipe. I don't have easy access to a sheet of stainless and thought a brass pipe nippple with an O.D. about the same as the I.D. of the pvc pipe would work just as good. Is this a bad idea?

 

[Ecomike]

I watched a Vid on U-tube that showed the assembly of an hho generator using pvc pipe. One electrode was made up of an assembly of stainless steel washers and lockwashers on a stainless carriage bolt. The other electrode was a piece of stainless sheet metal rolled up and mounted to the inside of the pvc pipe. I don't have easy access to a sheet of stainless and thought a brass pipe nippple with an O.D. about the same as the I.D. of the pvc pipe would work just as good. Is this a bad idea?

Brass would be a very poor choice. You want a metal that will not disolve into solution, brass, zinc, copper, aluminum and steel all disolve into solution.

Timmy2XJS,

I too have looked at the vinegar (Acetic Acid) option as a mental excercise, but keep it mind it is volatile (evaporates). I suspect a good bit of the vinegar evaporates and gets burned in the engine, and therefore needs more frequent replacement which may be costly, and time consuming, but I would be interested in seeing comparative results.

I have also thought of ammonia, or ammonium hydroxide, but I have not read of anyone trying it yet. The nitrogen in the ammonia may be a problem for NOx emission requirments.

 

[tbburg]

PuddinHead: A cheap source of stainless: get a stainless pan/pot from walmart/Kmart/etc.

 

[PuddinHead]

PuddinHead: A cheap source of stainless: get a stainless pan/pot from walmart/Kmart/etc.

Great Idea! I'm glad I thought of it!:cheers: Thanks tbburg.
Another thought is a scrap piece of Stainless exhaust.

 

[tbburg]

I can't really take credit for the idea:

http://diyhydrogenhho.com/2008/06/w...steel-for-hho-hydrogen-generators-fuel-cells/


'Thinking about trying it myself. It seems like there might be something to this. I can see why the auto industry doesn't use it even if it works though. Can you picture a brand new car that requires a fluid check with each gas fill-up? "Oh my god:shocked: you expect me to maintain this? I can't just drive it for 20,000 miles without ever looking under the hood or checking the tire pressure? Call my lawyer!"

 

[Timmy2XJS]

Brass would be a very poor choice. You want a metal that will not disolve into solution, brass, zinc, copper, aluminum and steel all disolve into solution.

Timmy2XJS,

I too have looked at the vinegar (Acetic Acid) option as a mental excercise, but keep it mind it is volatile (evaporates). I suspect a good bit of the vinegar evaporates and gets burned in the engine, and therefore needs more frequent replacement which may be costly, and time consuming, but I would be interested in seeing comparative results.

I have also thought of ammonia, or ammonium hydroxide, but I have not read of anyone trying it yet. The nitrogen in the ammonia may be a problem for NOx emission requirments.

well as far as i know the vinegar doesn't have all that many ill effects. the unit i am goin to get is by magdrive. its a new brick unit that will be out in the next few days. the people there told me that it requires less maintenance than the solution, and you get a significant more hho from it. like i said ill be finding out shortly and all let everyone know what i come up with

 

[Ecomike]

....the unit i am goin to get is by magdrive. its a new brick unit ........requires less maintenance than the solution, and you get a significant more hho from it.

Brick unit? Less maint...than solution????

 

[lawsoncl]

Brick unit? Less maint...than solution????

Magdrive lost a lot of credibility as soon as I read this: http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/how-it-works.html "A fallacy out there is that it takes more energy to produce the HHO than the energy it releases. Not at all true"

It's still a solution, just they are using a boxy looking thing, but they are adding a trap an easier refill bottle, and a few other niceties.

 

[mscans]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf_i5rNmt6w

maybe this is a repost. but wow. worth a watch. i have a sheet metal shop, i'll be building one of these on monday.