True dual header question

I say go for it as well--a well designed system will sound good and give you good gains. I'm still waiting for a co-worker to give me his Cliffords that have been sitting in a closet for 10 years. There was a guy on here that had a nice dual setup, but he dumped it out the side before the rear wheel: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=948682&highlight=purplecherokee+dual&page=11
On my 3.0l i-6 in my 95m3, there is a true dual and the x pipe was right before the cats(when I bought a race resonator, the x was inside). Now that system is dual 2-1/4 to 2-3/8 in size(actually it is a metric size) and it revs to 7K. The cliffords are 2.5" at the collectors and you definitely won't need dual 2.5s", more like 2" to 2-1/8".
 
Even if you were to run a small block V8, you don't NEED duals. The optimal size single pipe (or what fits) for your application is what you need.
For a muscle car or race car, sure duals make sense in most cases.

True that, i run a single 3.5" on my LS. It's all about finding the right fit for the car and the engine.
 
Ok here is my opinion, go for it! I know it seems pointless on an XJ to do true dual but thats not the point, atleast not to me. I suggested this to my cousin since his 2000 already has the split manifold, it would be unique to have it dual all the way back. The pipes wouldn't have to be that big, 2" at most. Use a dual in, dual out catalytic converter and a dual in, dual out muffler and then run the pipes out along each side of the gas tank. Again probably not a whole lot of horsepower gains but you would have the only XJ out there with true dual. I have a dual exhaust set up but only from the muffler back. I am running a single in, dual out flowmaster 50 series and two chrome slant cut 2.5" tips and it looks great and I get compliments on it all the time. It sounds great too in my opinion it sounds as good as the 4.0L can get before just dropping in a V8 haha. If you go for it just make sure when having all the pipes made for it make sure you put all the 02 sensors back in the right spots so the computer doesn't freak out. Any muffler shop will have 02 bungs that they can weld onto the pipes anywhere they need to put the sensors. If you do end up doing it post up some pictures of the finished product!

You aren't a function over form kinda guy are you? Duals are A.) Pointless on a straight 6 and B.) There is no room for them like stated above.
 
You dont have a v6, so why would you want dual exhaust?

Explain to me how cylinder configuration has anything to do with exhaust pulses.

The answer is that it doesn't. True duals on a a straight 6 works just as well as on a v-6, as "o-gauge-steamer" mentioned in his Jag example. The question is one of proper tube diameter.

You aren't a function over form kinda guy are you? Duals are A.) Pointless on a straight 6 and B.) There is no room for them like stated above.

Care to explain that one?

The 4.0 isn't a notoriously high horsepower engine, therefore to essentially double the cumulative size of your exhaust tubing by running true duals, you can actually hurt performance unless you size the tubing accordingly. If I had to throw out a ball park guesstimate, I'd say 2" pipes would work pretty well for a mostly stock 4.0.

Remember, (2)2"=6.28"
(2)2.25"=7.95"
(2)2.5"=9.82"
(2)3"=14.14"
Versus (1)2"=3.14"
(1)2.25"=3.98"
(1)2.5"=4.91"
(1)3"=7.07"

As you can see, a single 3" exhaust system would be right between a 2" and 2.25" dual exhaust system. It should be noted that the stock diameter is 2.5", which is still smaller than a dual 2" system.
 
Explain to me how cylinder configuration has anything to do with exhaust pulses.

The answer is that it doesn't. True duals on a a straight 6 works just as well as on a v-6, as "o-gauge-steamer" mentioned in his Jag example. The question is one of proper tube diameter.



Care to explain that one?

The 4.0 isn't a notoriously high horsepower engine, therefore to essentially double the cumulative size of your exhaust tubing by running true duals, you can actually hurt performance unless you size the tubing accordingly. If I had to throw out a ball park guesstimate, I'd say 2" pipes would work pretty well for a mostly stock 4.0.

Remember, (2)2"=6.28"
(2)2.25"=7.95"
(2)2.5"=9.82"
(2)3"=14.14"
Versus (1)2"=3.14"
(1)2.25"=3.98"
(1)2.5"=4.91"
(1)3"=7.07"

As you can see, a single 3" exhaust system would be right between a 2" and 2.25" dual exhaust system. It should be noted that the stock diameter is 2.5", which is still smaller than a dual 2" system.

Thats right... bust out that math... it is actually helping me understand exhaust more than "its a tube that attaches to the header..."
 
Stock is more like 2.25. Most people run 2.5 as an upgrade.

A v has two cylinder banks an inline has one. I'd imagine that firing order would be very different in order to balance out the different configurations.
 
A v has two cylinder banks an inline has one. I'd imagine that firing order would be very different in order to balance out the different configurations.
Both a V- and I-6 have 3 power pulses(and 3 exhaust events)per revolution.
They require a different firing order to arrange the power pulses in a even manner. To get good exhaust scavenging may require different exhaust manifold design, but the principal is the same.
It just happens that the "standard" architecture for an I-6 has the front 3 cylinders and the rear 3 cylinders together to give even exhaust pulse for scavenging. With an "odd-fire" V-6, the pulses are such that the individual banks have their own header. On the "even-fire" -6, you have a manifold with 2 primary tubes from one bank and 1 primary tube from the opposite bank to get proper scavenging. Some V-8s also require a "2L +2R manifold design for proper scavenging. It all depends on the crank layout.
 
For our firing order, the coupling of the exhaust for a dual setup is 1,2,3 then 4,5,6. Sound familiar? If you wanted the best extraction then tie 1 and 6, 2 and 5, the 3 and 4. Run the primaries for around 32" (corrected length of the primaries will move the torque peak. Longer primaries = Lower Torque Peak) then collect the six into three and the three into one. The primaries should really be no more than 1.5" in diameter. It is all about keeping the velocity up. Also keep in mind that every bend you put into the pipe effectively lengthens it due to the turbulance created.

Examples of length equivalent based on a 1.5 radius bend:
Fitting 114" 112" 2" 212"
90-degree elbow 3.45 4.03 5.17 6.17
45-degree elbow 1.84 2.15 2.76 3.29

So, if you start at the head with a 90 degree bend, the 32" primary needs only run for an additional 27.97 inches. So even a "long" header winds up pretty short. It is just physics.

Clifford makes a good header. I ran them on my 1952 Hudson Hornet bracket racer. 308cuin Inline, dual carbureted, Flathead, 6 cylinder back in 1968. I even had an Offy cylinder head...
 
imo for exhaust on the i6 just stick with 2.25 pipe from the header back and put on whatever cat/muffler combo you like the sound of. if you put too big of an exhaust pipe on it you'll loose power. every naturally aspirated motor needs back pressure to run properly.

goes with that quote from 5-90.

louder may sound cooler to alot of people but it doesn't really mean more power.

I'll agree with the bit on the 2.25" for a stock engine (2.5" for a stroker - no real need to go larger than that for any NA 6-242 variant,) but I'll argue the "engine needs backpressure" point. You are correct about going with too large a pipe being bad for power output - but not due to the backpressure point. Keep reading:

Authoritative literature (Taylor, Morrison, Blair) all agree - any backpressure will harm scavenging and contribute to the pumping losses already present. This is why there is an optimax pipe size (primaries and secondaries) to exhaust - too small, and there's not enough flow area to evacuate the gasses properly. Too large, you get internal turbulence and flow restriction ("backpressure," in simpler terms) due to uneven cooling of the exhaust gas pulse.

In fact, you want to get as close to zero backpressure as you can - better still, you'd like to see slight negative backpressure at the exhaust collector(s) - because the slight reduction in pressure between the exhaust pulses helps to pull out the next pulse, and creates a mild "pulling" effect that improves scavenge efficiency with less pumping effort.

You can get away with some backpressure on supercharged engines due to the "positive feeding" of the intake stream (particularly with a Roots or a Whipple - both of these are positive-displacement pumps, rather than simply relying on the increase in air molecule velocity created by the centrifugal,) and backpressure is unavoidable on turbosupercharged engines (due to the location of the turbine in the exhaust stream, usually at the manifold collector, and as close to the exhaust valves as possible. This is why exhaust manifolds that mount turbos are "log-style" parts, with short primaries that can be measured in a handful of inches from the valve proper to the exhaust plenum.) Also, the "optimax pipe size" after the turbine goes out the window - because you don't have "pressure pulses" anymore. They've all been broken up by the turbine wheel, and you just have residual pressure to move the gas (turosupercharged engines aren't quite as efficient at scavenging as supercharged engines for this reason - which has much to do with why turbo units are often selected to run higher boost pressures. This is workable, however, because a turbosupercharger is driven by the thermal and kinetic energy of the exhaust gas flow - which is otherwise wasted, because it doesn't do anything to drive the vehicle. Figure that the energy released in combustion is divided roughly into thirds - one-third goes out the exhaust pipe as gas flow and heat, one-third goes out the radiator as heat, and the remaining third [or so - typically 30-35%, with 40% at this point being good] being converted to kinetic energy to drive the vehicle. A conventional supercharger, however, shows a lower net drive energy output because it uses the drive output energy of the engine to also drive the compressor. The turbosupercharger isn't "free power," but it comes close to it by making use of energy that is otherwise wasted.)

NA (Naturally Aspirated) race cars would love to run open ports on the heads - but do not, because that's a very good way to have cold air hit the back of the exhaust valve head and warp the thing, if not crack it outright. This is why you will see primary tubes on racing cars - even if that's all they have (yes, I know the Top Fuel vehicles are heavily supercharged and run right on the ragged edge of hydrolocking - but you'll also see the same exhaust arrangement on dedicated racing vehicles with NA engines as well. Anything else introduced backpressure into the system, which causes an increase in pumping losses, which reduces engine output.)

Further reading on the topic can be had, as mentioned, in definitive literature on the topic:

The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems, by Philip H. Smith and John C. Morrison (I always think of this one as "Morrison" - "Smith" brings my kid sister to mind first...)

The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, by Charles Fayette Taylor ("Taylor")

Design and Simulation of Four-Stroke Engines, by Gordon P. Blair ("Blair")

Other literature that can be considered definitive groundwork for pretty much anything WRT automotive engines:

The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine, by Sir Harry Ricardo (I often cite this as simply "Ricardo")

Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals, by John Heywood (I'll usually cite him as "Heywood.")

The first three may still be purchased readily new, but the latter two have been out-of-print for quite some time (this makes them no less authoritative - they've typically used as baseline references for most more modern works, because the basic principles haven't changed a whit.) However, Heywood and Ricardo may be found digitally, which I leave as an exercise for the apt pupil.

For someone wanting further study of forced induction on the automotive engine, I recommend Supercharged! and Maximum Boost, both by Corky Bell (and, being modern works, both are still readily available through Bentley Press.)

(Yes, I have all of these - and more besides. I got into mechanics quite some time ago, performance mechanics shortly afterward, and I've always wanted to know how and why things work - which has lead into some heavily abstruse study on topics most people don't want to touch - including fields like petrochemistry, organic chemistry, thermodynamics, nuclear physics, quantum mechanics - "the dreams that stuff is made of" - and a number of other subjects. All as self-study.

(There are times I've been asked questions, given answers I later found were accurate, and still spend a half-hour sitting and wondering "Where the Hell did I learn that?" My wife loves it - she sez that she doesn't need to buy an encyclopaedia, she has me. In fourteen years, she hasn't asked me anything I haven't been able to answer off the top of my head, or find the answer in ten minutes. I wonder if she's trying...)
 
but I'll argue the "engine needs backpressure" point...

X2

I die a little bit inside every time I hear someone say that :doh:

A v has two cylinder banks an inline has one. I'd imagine that firing order would be very different in order to balance out the different configurations.

You're absolutely right. Tbburg and o-gauge did a great job explaining that :thumbup:
 
Just make sure if you change exhaust and/or intake restrictions that you recalibrate the ecm so you do not go over hardware limits of the engine.

Not to sound like one of the tree huggers but. A lot of time and money goes into the factory calibrations to make sure you get the best BSFC, close the the hardware limits and meet all of the emissions requirements at the time. The sensors in the engine can only take into consideration so much change.
 
X2

I die a little bit inside every time I hear someone say that :doh:



You're absolutely right. Tbburg and o-gauge did a great job explaining that :thumbup:

Inline six engine are treated as two inline three-cylinder engines, mounted front-to-back, and exactly "out of phase" to balance each other. This is why inline sixes using dual-exit exhaust invariably split cylinders 1-2-3 from cylinders 4-5-6 - and it works very well.

However, the "front bank" and "back bank" of cylinders are thought of as "left bank" and "right bank" for purposes of exhaust design - so crossover pipes and such can still help.
 
Inline six engine are treated as two inline three-cylinder engines, mounted front-to-back, and exactly "out of phase" to balance each other. This is why inline sixes using dual-exit exhaust invariably split cylinders 1-2-3 from cylinders 4-5-6 - and it works very well.

However, the "front bank" and "back bank" of cylinders are thought of as "left bank" and "right bank" for purposes of exhaust design - so crossover pipes and such can still help.

I agree. I don't know why so many here think that dual exhaust on a Jeep is worthless. Whether or not it's worth the extra effort is up to the individual I suppose.
 
Just to clarify my position...

Duals will work if properly engineered. Larger is not better as velocity drops and you lose the scavenge effect you need to to produce power. The purpose of a collector is to create a partial pressure area that pulls the next pulse away from the exhaust port. Understand the the length of the primaries directly affect the timing of the pulses and that, in turn, affects the torque curve. Horsepower is not measured on a dyno, torque is. HP is calculated from the data.

A Top Fuel Dragster runs one pipe per cylinder the length of which determines where the engine is going to run best. The idea (what again?) is to have the pulse leave the pipe just as the exhaust valve opens so to create the partial pressure needed to evacuate the cylinder.

An example:
My 72 Mercedes 280 SEL 4.5 came from the factory with a 4.5L V-8 Gas engine. Dual 1.5" exhaust running first through a resonator, then an open construction muffler. The entire exhaust system was designed to minimize the back pressure without being excessively loud. It has an 80mm Throttle Body as it is a high rev engine thereby needing a large TB.

It boots nothing to have the intake and exhaust out of "sync" with each other. A Large TB will not perforn if the exhaust is cramped and a large exhaust does nothing if the flow is not there. The engine is a system and it must be approached as a system.

When I put on my 2.5" exhaust (consisting of a Magnaflow CAt and the Heartthrob Cat-Back) I got some, deserved at the time, criticism from some of my local chapter. And they were right for how the system was configured at that time. Now is a different story. I am no longer in a Normally Aspirated Mode. With the SC on board, the 2.5" makes sense. What I need to do next is to dump the CAM for one with LESS OVERLAP (it's a system, right?) the duration can be the same for the exhaust and a tad less on the intake which would solve the overlap problem.So what is the big deal with overlap? I am venting pressure directly out of the cylinder during the overlap which results in a drop in efficiency. Problem is, no one, I am aware of, makes a Forced Induction Cam for the AMC engine. Fords, Chevys and MOPAR, sure. AMC? Not so much. And although my stock TB is OK, The math says I will get a cripser response out of a larger one, say around 65mm.

When I built my 4.7 back in 2005, I used the 68mm TB of of the 4.7 V8 engine and I ran 2.5" exhaust. That engine produced 298hp at the crank (sea level corrected). I am still putzing with the F/IC and once I am satisfied with the tune, I'll dyno it. Those results will be the driver for replacing the TB and/or the Cam. The pre-mod numbers were 107.7hp and 168.8 ftlbs. Keep in mind I am at 6500' and have P235/75 tires on the stock 3.55:1 gears with the AW4. System again.

If the OP purpose is to put in a dual setup as an Engineering exercise, I applaud his determination. Keep in mind that going to duals originated during the muscle car years (some of us are old enough to remember it happening...) due to the factory singles being designed strictly to keep the vehicle quiet. With large displacement engines, choking them off still left enough power. Duals (and intakes, cams, carbs...) let them breathe as they should.

With the CAFE standards going into place, manufacturers were forced into making things more efficient. That includes the exhaust. The more efficient an engine is running the better economy it gets and less emissions it puts out. Remember that unburnt hydrocarbons are measured. Unburnt... Blessed be closed loop FI.

With what is known today, I would actually prefer a properly designed single over a dual. Same level of performance, oodles less costs. One cat, one muffler, one run of pipe, more room under the Heep and less heat transferred. Heat transfer? Does it matter? Yep, it is another variable in the process. The exhaust needs to stay hot.

Also, for those who do not know me, I retired in 2008 after a glorious career as an Engineer. OK, maybe not glorious, but successful at any rate...

5-90 is someone you should really listen to. As is Kastein and a few others here that actually know just what to put into the sock. I currently have two Heeps, 50 years apart. My 98 XJ and the 48 CJ. My Jeeping experience goes back to 1965 when my Dad picked up a 60 Utility Wagon (to carry my Momand Sister) and my brother snagged a 58 CJ-5 for the two of us to bomb around in. We went all over the California side of the Sierras. My total automotive experince goes back to 1959 starting with cleaning parts for the Old Man. You all know how that works, give the kid something to do...

So, although I do not claim to know the meaning of Life (42?) and am by no means the Worlds Foremost Authority, on anything, I do have some idea of how thing works. ASEE, BSME, MBA. I have found that the more I learn, the more I learn just how little I know.
 
Listening to me might be a mistake. Depends on what I'm talking about :roflmao:
 
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