The Great Global Warming Swindle

I'm failing to resist the urge to reply. Again.

WVXJ said:
you guys really think the industrial revolution has no ill effects upon the planet? Seriously???
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The industrial revolution took place in the later parts of the 18th century and carried on into the mid- to late-19th century. While we're seeing the logical extension of that today, modern manufacturing techniques in first-world nations cannot, in any way, shape, or form, be compared to those by any means.

That thick black smoke that's been pouring out of every industrialized nation for over a hundred years has nothing to do with pollution or a warming trend?
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No, it doesn't - as long as you separate 'industrialised nations' from 'third-world hellholes'. And by the latter I'm referring to places like China, India, and the former Eastern European Bloc. Places where pollution controls traditionally - much as today - meant squat. If you think we pollute, I'd invite you to visit places in Guangzhou, Agra, or Eesti and draw a comparison for yourself.

I think you fellas should go back over the data..........especially looking at co2 rises, what other phenomenon do you think would cause rises in co2?
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I ask this only to be clear on the question at hand: Carbon Monoxide or Carbon Dioxide?

And even if one didn't believe burning fossil fuels would lead to environmental pollution, wouldn't you still want to see some progress towards cleaner energy just to have cleaner air to breath?
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I'm an outright capitalist, and I'm perfectly fine with cleaner sources of power. That's exactly why I support nuclear energy.

Unless i had stock in Exxon/Mobil, or was a paid spokesperson for the industry (such as the president), i would have a real hard time protesting cleaner air.
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'Scuse me while I tow that imaginary party line you're so fond of and go asphyxiate some babies. After all, I do have a standard of evil to uphold.
 
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WVXJ said:
you guys really think the industrial revolution has no ill effects upon the planet? Seriously??? That thick black smoke that's been pouring out of every industrialized nation for over a hundred years has nothing to do with pollution or a warming trend? I think you fellas should go back over the data..........especially looking at co2 rises, what other phenomenon do you think would cause rises in co2?

And even if one didn't believe burning fossil fuels would lead to environmental pollution, wouldn't you still want to see some progress towards cleaner energy just to have cleaner air to breath?

Unless i had stock in Exxon/Mobil, or was a paid spokesperson for the industry (such as the president), i would have a real hard time protesting cleaner air.
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Please do re-read what I wrote. I never said that we didn't have an effect upon the global climate, nor did I say that the Industrial Revolution occurred in a vacuum.

I did go so far as to say that, while we certainly do have an effect upon the world environment, we are not the proximate cause of the current "warming trend" - which has itself been debunked in the face of recent raw data (it seemed we are in a "cooling trend," not a "warming trend.")

Again, I'd have to see raw data as presented, and not interpretations by people who have some sort of ax to grind either way - and, until I do see raw data, I shan't form a cogent opinion on the matter. I prefer to hold my own thoughts, and to form those thoughts from raw data, drawing my own conclusions (and damn what anyone else thinks - I'm not them. I prefer to think for myself.)

As far as what Al Gore has said on the matter - he's waffled so much I'm mildly surprised he hasn't been found to be Belgian. I know politicians regularly reverse themselves for some goofy reason or another, but damn.

And, I've got a long habit of not heeding any "scientific opinion" held by pretty much any elected official - they hold an opinion solely as a means of getting votes - they hold whatever opinion their Chief of Staff understands is most popular at the time. See Dante's Inferno to see what I hope happens to them (banner-chasers in the First Circle of Hell.)

Besides, I think that "scientific opinions" as held by politicians are formed by the likes of Zogby and Gallup; rather than, say, MIT or Harvard. Besides, even academia is not immune - they've been becoming increasingly political over the last several years.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Just make sure you read the whole story - you may miss something pivotal...
 
WVXJ said:
you guys really think the industrial revolution has no ill effects upon the planet?
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I've been a believer of the C02 theory for 30-years, believe me, it's not easy changing your mind about an issue like this but I prefer to consider and make up my mind from real scientific facts not political speeches.

I accept...
That global warming is real and that it is happening now.
That global warming and cooling is a natural process.
That as a human I am contributing a tiny amount of C02 each day.
That pollution is a bad thing.
That the west depends too much on imported fuels.

What I didn't know before was that the oceans are the prime C02 source on this planet, the 2nd biggest source is rotting vegetation, the 3rd is emissions from all creatures, 4th volcanic eruptions and right at the bottom of the pile is industrial man.

When Patrick Moore, a founding member of Greenpeace said that Global Warming is not caused by man's CO2 production but by Solar activity. It got my attention and the show changed my mind.

My old Jeep will still burn propane.
My house will still be lit by low energy bulbs.
My trash will still go to a recycling plant.
But nobody is ever going to convince me again that climate change is due to C02, it's Solar and there's nothing humans can do to stop it.
 
BTW -

As we are forced to switch to compact floresecent bulbs, expect more and more issues like:

Poor TV reception
Poor radio reception
RF remotes not working at any decent range
Cordless phones not working at range
PCS issues
Wireless network issues

These things are already causing issues, it is just gonna get worse.

Rev
 
Rev Den said:
BTW -

As we are forced to switch to compact floresecent bulbs, expect more and more issues like:

Poor TV reception
Poor radio reception
RF remotes not working at any decent range
Cordless phones not working at range
PCS issues
Wireless network issues

These things are already causing issues, it is just gonna get worse.

Almost forgot, the landlord has been replacing all the flourscent lights in the building, I NOW have one dead spot on the end of my desk where my wireless mouse won't work. It's about a 1ft by 2ft space where I perch my laptop next to my two 22" LCD monitors, worked fine the last week, they did the lights this weekend and darn if I didn't spend hours trying to fix my wireless laptop mouse. Moved it to another desk to do some work and it worked fine, move it back, no good, move to other end of desk and works fine. Just that one spot... In the middle of rearranging my desk now so the laptop perches inbetween the two monitors.
Rev
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Thats OK, I'm quite sure the powers that are pushing these devices already have patents on the solutions....
 
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Also along those lines I've had a problem all week with my laptop and it's wireless rf mouse. There is one spot on the desk where the mouse will not work, works fine everywhere else but not on the left hand corner of the desk where I perch it. I took that mouse back 3x then happened to setup in the confrence room to give a presentation and the darn thing worked, got suspicious and tried a couple of other spots and it worked fine, move it to that 1ft x 2ft spot on the desk and it no worky. Also noticed on monday that we had a whole bunch of old flourscent fixtures outside the door so they finally reached out floor, they have been updating the lights in the entire 20+floors.
Ended up moving the 2 20" wide screen LCD's for my management and build system apart and perching the laptop between them.
I want that 3 hours back that I wasted walking back and forth between here and J&R music world.
 
WVXJ said:
you guys really think the industrial revolution has no ill effects upon the planet? Seriously??? That thick black smoke that's been pouring out of every industrialized nation for over a hundred years has nothing to do with pollution or a warming trend? I think you fellas should go back over the data..........especially looking at co2 rises, what other phenomenon do you think would cause rises in co2?

And even if one didn't believe burning fossil fuels would lead to environmental pollution, wouldn't you still want to see some progress towards cleaner energy just to have cleaner air to breath?

Unless i had stock in Exxon/Mobil, or was a paid spokesperson for the industry (such as the president), i would have a real hard time protesting cleaner air.
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I think people like you have a very tiny view on a vary large planet.

So typical of humans to think that they are big enough to have that much of an impact on nature.
 
WVXJ said:
you guys really think the industrial revolution has no ill effects upon the planet? Seriously??? That thick black smoke that's been pouring out of every industrialized nation for over a hundred years has nothing to do with pollution or a warming trend? I think you fellas should go back over the data..........especially looking at co2 rises, what other phenomenon do you think would cause rises in co2?
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The single largest producer of co2 and methane into the atmosphere is cow flatulance, So dont drink milk or eat beef!
 
rockwerks said:
The single largest producer of co2 and methane into the atmosphere is cow flatulance, So dont drink milk or eat beef!
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According to my wife I can give a herd of cows a run for their money after eating at taco bell....:flame:
 
Vince said:
What I didn't know before was that the oceans are the prime C02 source on this planet, the 2nd biggest source is rotting vegetation, the 3rd is emissions from all creatures, 4th volcanic eruptions and right at the bottom of the pile is industrial man.
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Well thank God all the P.H.D.s of chemistry, geology, climatology, and paleotology on NAXJA have come together to solve this problem for me. I will sleep much better knowing that everybody else out there that have devoted their careers to this subject are complete idiots. I can't believe I put any faith in scientists that can't even figure out what the common recreational four wheeler can see in plain sight. Thanks guys for setting me straight.

P.S.- You might be interested in the fact that the oceans are the LARGEST carbon sinks on the planet. Meaning NET, the oceans absorb more CO2 than anything, period.

P.S.S- Sorry that is ludacris. It goes against the great scientific body of knowledge put forth by NAXJA. Never mind.
 
:scottm: Wow, you drank ALL the Koolaide... In this country, and most other Western countries, we have done a trememndous job cleaning up after ourselves. Yes, industry still puts out SOME pollution, but nowhere near the amoutns they did during the mentioned Industrial Revolution. I'm going to BET you have never been outside this great and wonderful country. YOu've never lived or visited anywhere that the POLLUTION dusts everything have you. The US EPA put limits on emmissions from industry, industry puts scrubbers and such in their stacks, some gets out, but the vast majority gets scrubbed. Cars are MUCH cleaner than ever too.

CO2 is a TRACE gas in the atmosphere, but you wouldn't know it based off the global warming scam hype. Carbon offsets like Albert Gore buys (from his own company by the way) are an even BIGGER scam with ambiguous at best results. It will take 30-40 years for trees to grow to offset the carbon off a single airplane flight. And then, when the tree dies, that carbon is released BACK into the environement...

Man is such an arrogant creature. We think we have the power to destroy this planet. I say again, this dustball will spit us off whenever it feels like it. This planet is currently signifacantly cooler than most of it's history.

Oh yeah, no good scientist ever goes along with a "consensus". It was a consensus that the world was flat, that the Earth was the center of the Universe, that the rest of the solar system and our own sun circled around us... There is no such thing as settled science. In grade school I learned there were nine planets. Now Pluto isn't considered a planet anymore...

Grow up and learn to look at ALL the evidence, not just that which is spoon fed to you... GLobal Warming has always been about Junk Science. State of Fear is an EXCELLENT book...

Now, after that tirade, where the hell is my check form the oil companies? Shoot, I'd be happy with free gas for the rest of my life instead...

WVXJ said:
you guys really think the industrial revolution has no ill effects upon the planet? Seriously??? That thick black smoke that's been pouring out of every industrialized nation for over a hundred years has nothing to do with pollution or a warming trend? I think you fellas should go back over the data..........especially looking at co2 rises, what other phenomenon do you think would cause rises in co2?

And even if one didn't believe burning fossil fuels would lead to environmental pollution, wouldn't you still want to see some progress towards cleaner energy just to have cleaner air to breath?

Unless i had stock in Exxon/Mobil, or was a paid spokesperson for the industry (such as the president), i would have a real hard time protesting cleaner air.
Click to expand...
 
Vince said:
When Patrick Moore, a founding member of Greenpeace said that Global Warming is not caused by man's CO2 production but by Solar activity. It got my attention and the show changed my mind.
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OK, but what is this???

Global climate change is another area where extreme statements are made, in this case on both sides of the debate, when there is little in science to defend them. Some things are quite certain. Carbon dioxide levels are rising and our consumption of fossil fuels and deforestation in the tropics are probably the main causes. There is a lot of evidence that the earth's climate is warming: the glaciers in Alaska are retreating and great egrets are visiting northern Lake Huron. But here the consensus ends.

That is a quote from Patrick Moore right from his web site. That's odd???

You can go to his site to read the rest of the article, but no where does he go on to say GW is caused by Solar radiation. I couldn't find anything on solar causes for GW anywhere on his site. (Although he does have some good idea and seems reasonable) I love the great age of misinformation!
 
Powerman...did you know that not a single Nobel winning scientist believes in the human caused global warming theory?

Funny how short people's memories are. In the 70's they have everyone convinced we were heading into the next ice-age.

The one thing about Science is that every two or three years the scientists seem to change their minds.

Its too hard to believe anything anyone says when most of them get their paychecks from institutes who start out trying to prove something.

"come work for me...I will pay you 100K a year if you can prove to me Global Warming is caused by Humans." Sorry I don't need science in my life like that.
 
neonrog said:
The US EPA put limits on emmissions from industry, industry puts scrubbers and such in their stacks, some gets out, but the vast majority gets scrubbed.
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The EPA is useless. The vast majority of plants get around scrubbers and new source review. Including the plant I work at. We have put off scrubbers for 15 years. The vast majority get around it.

Also, scrubbers remove sulfur which goes on to contribute to acid rain. (I can remember when everyone though acid rain was a joke as they stood in dead forests) They don't remove "pollution". Pollution is not a single entity. There are particulates (soot and ash), NOx, sulfur, heavy metals, CO2, CO...

neonrog said:
Oh yeah, no good scientist ever goes along with a "consensus". It was a consensus that the world was flat, that the Earth was the center of the Universe, that the rest of the solar system and our own sun circled around us...
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Scientists never beleived the Earth was flat, or that it revoved around the Sun. THEOLOGIANS and laymen belived that. When scholars applied scientific methods to the subject, they found the truth.

neonrog said:
Grow up and learn to look at ALL the evidence, not just that which is spoon fed to you...
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Exactly!
 
DrMoab said:
Powerman...did you know that not a single Nobel winning scientist believes in the human caused global warming theory?

Funny how short people's memories are. In the 70's they have everyone convinced we were heading into the next ice-age.

The one thing about Science is that every two or three years the scientists seem to change their minds.

Its too hard to believe anything anyone says when most of them get their paychecks from institutes who start out trying to prove something.

"come work for me...I will pay you 100K a year if you can prove to me Global Warming is caused by Humans." Sorry I don't need science in my life like that.
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I will stop picking apart quotes. This is what I believe. I believe that man is having an impact on the natural carbon cycle. I believe that the increased CO2 increases the Green house effect.

What I believe is wide open to debate is what impact it will have. While I do believe that man is increasing CO2 concentrations compared to natural occurences, I also know the planet has been at this point before in it's history. Both CO2 and temperature. So I do not believe the sky is falling.

I am absolutly open to the idea that there are other contributing factors to GW that we don't understand. I also am open to the idea that there might also be stabilizing factors that we do not understand. We need more study.

As a person sitting in the middle, I believe both side spew vast amounts of propaganda. I do not agree with either of them. I do not think we have enough information to make a difinitive decision on exactly what we should do. I am very skeptical of anything that has a price tag attached.

But this is how I see it. GW is a subject that has decades of study and data behind it. Many kooky ideas come and go, but GW is still around and gaining more support after all this time. Many companies have spent ass loads of money to prove it wrong and none have conclusively done so. Look at Exxon.
While I am no enviro whaco, the most vocal anti-GW voices out there are big buissness, big governments, and oil companies. Right off the bat I'm skeptical of their claims and misinformation.

Nothing changes overnight and I don't think anything needs to. This debate will rage on, but in the meantime we can continue to improve what we do. There is absolutly no reason we can not work on developing cleaner ways to produce and consume energy, period. Higher mileage standards help reduce dependence on foriegn energy. More efficient use of our resources is good buisness. We don't just have to say it's all BS. There are plenty of good reasons to work on the stuff we can agree on.
 
Lets supose the earth is actually getting cooler and CO2 turns out to have health benifits. So should we still not do everthing we can to slow the amount of polution we are pumping out? I'll buy into the global warming hoax if it means I'll get cleaner air and water.
 
Stumpalump said:
Lets supose the earth is actually getting cooler and CO2 turns out to have health benifits. So should we still not do everthing we can to slow the amount of polution we are pumping out? I'll buy into the global warming hoax if it means I'll get cleaner air and water.
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I think that we should do what we can, within means. I don't think that we should revamp our culture's way of life for it. Life is way to comfy.

I had to watch "An Inconvenient Truth" the other day, and was captivated by the numbers. They make sense, and the only solution in my mind would be population control. We have to stop this explosive population growth. If the population keeps growing at this rate, all prohibitions and precautions utilized to prevent emissions and green house gases will be futile.

Other than that, the movie was utter crap filled with political clout. Nobody cares about your personal life Gore, so keep that mushy "feel sorry for me because I lost the election" crap to yourself, unless you plan to give the presidency another shot.

If I retreaded on somebody else's post please forgive, I didn't read all this stuff.
 
Powerman said:
Nothing changes overnight and I don't think anything needs to. This debate will rage on, but in the meantime we can continue to improve what we do. There is absolutly no reason we can not work on developing cleaner ways to produce and consume energy, period. Higher mileage standards help reduce dependence on foriegn energy. More efficient use of our resources is good buisness. We don't just have to say it's all BS. There are plenty of good reasons to work on the stuff we can agree on.
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My only problem with this is that if *overnite* someone came up with a way to DOUBLE the gas milage of every US car and truck guess what will happen.. Gas will shoot up to $6.00 a gallon. As soon as it does everything will follow. The business's and investors with the money would not tolerate an increase like this because their revenue would drop in half. I think one of the reasons that alternative fuels and sources are moving so slowly is those same business's are feeling their way slowly into maintaining the control they have now. Honda came out with a hydrogen 'system' that included the car and a hydrogen generator that hangs on your garage wall to make fuel. What happened to it, my skeptical side says it was decided that it would be a bad thing to allow individuals to manufacture their own fuel and just like now the govt can use the BATF rules for people wishing to generate their own alky fuel at home. Iceland is over 60% or 70%, maybe even higher, into hydrogen conversion for their cars. Companies don't want a one time sale, they want you back month after month, day after day, week after week.
Like nuclear power, every time they, media or pictures, show a nuke plant it takes up 10 football fields, they are in peoples minds as HUGE things, guess what, they fit small ones on satellites, bigger ones on submarines that push 50,000kw, reactor itself is not much bigger than a 50 gallon drum, you could actually fit the whole shebang inside a 4 car garage with two SSTG's [Steam Turbine Generators], maybe 6 for added shielding and a decent cooling tower. It could even be made modular so it could be moved after 20 years. It used to be that they needed to recored about every 7 or so, now the new aircraft carrier plants are good for 20+, the navy has not sat still designing this stuff like the rest of the industry. Hell, every plant the civilian industry has built has been a custom one off job, no two plants alike if they are more than 4 years apart, no wonder they cost so damn much to build.
Enough, back to work...
 
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