Socialist Playbook-this isn't about politics, it's about overthrowing the USA.

[XJEEPER]

What if you're mistaken about which play book and team is making the calls?

The elected elite serve their corporate masters not the you and me that make up the majority of Americans. The 1st part of the war on the middle class was education. Peoples minds were fed that lobbyist for workers were 'bad'. You know Unions? The folks who two generations ago fought child labor, made the eight hour work day standard and until recently weekends off. Turn the population against their advocates, make the Unions the bad guys, the organizations that stand up for workers and when we succeed at bringing the unionized workforce to less than 10% start whittling away at all the good unions have done.

The next step is let's get the middle class to blame the immigrants for taking "their" jobs while ignoring and not enforcing laws that monitor and put protocols on immigration. Exploit another threat known as terrorism and strip away more rights from the working person, create another federal bureaucracy that flings mud at the words of Alexander Hamilton regarding the enforcement of laws in such a fashion that freemen will see as tyranny.

Do you believe Daddy Warbucks cares if his factory is in Iowa or China, no he doesn't care where the factory that feeds his income is located. Just that there is an income and some sap to buy the trinkets he produces.

Tom, I know your stance on unions, but you cannot ignore or deny the fact that all of the major unions in the US have direct ties to Socialist and Communist parties and agendas........polar opposites of the Republic and the US Constitution.

 

[ocean_jet]

Recognizing the problem and taking action to correct it are two very different things.

I stand by my assertion.

The US government doesn't have a revenue problem,

I have already shown that the problem is MUCH bigger than spending cuts alone can fix.

 

[ocean_jet]

Tom, I know your stance on unions, but you cannot ignore or deny the fact that all of the major unions in the US have direct ties to Socialist and Communist parties and agendas........polar opposites of the Republic and the US Constitution.

I'm sorry, but I still find it disingenuous when you rant about Socialism and Communism, yet you support a tax model steeped in the Marxist utopian vision.

 

[XJEEPER]

I'm sorry, but I still find it disingenuous when you rant about Socialism and Communism, yet you support a tax model steeped in the Marxist utopian vision.

I find it odd that even when I agree with you, you try and turn it into an agruement........

 

[ocean_jet]

I find it odd that even when I agree with you, you try and turn it into an agruement........

I am not trying to argue... I just don't like your style of evoking "Socialism" and "Communism" and "Marxism" any time someone makes a comment you disfavor...


...especially, when you support one, and happily benefit from another, Marxist tax code.

 

[Boatwrench]

Tom, I know your stance on unions, but you cannot ignore or deny the fact that all of the major unions in the US have direct ties to Socialist and Communist parties and agendas........polar opposites of the Republic and the US Constitution.

Unfortunately you are correct too many Unions have ties to socialist organizations. They are still the lobbyist for those that work for a living.

 

[XJEEPER]

I am not trying to argue... I just don't like your style of evoking "Socialism" and "Communism" and "Marxism" any time someone makes a comment you disfavor...


...especially, when you support one, and happily benefit from another, Marxist tax code.

Exaggerate much?

Dig back into this thread and you'll see that when I make reference to the actions of those that are in alignment with Socialist, Communist or Marxist agendas, I also provide reference material to support these claims.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I think our current tax code is a joke and needs to be :flame: .

I'm anxious to hear your plan on how to turn our economy around and achieve a fiscally responsible federal government? Please provide details.

 

[themud]

Exaggerate much?

Dig back into this thread and you'll see that when I make reference to the actions of those that are in alignment with Socialist, Communist or Marxist agendas, I also provide reference material to support these claims.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I think our current tax code is a joke and needs to be :flame: .

I'm anxious to hear your plan on how to turn our economy around and achieve a fiscally responsible federal government? Please provide details.

This is your problem the simple facts are that both cannot be done they are polar opposites.. We have to pick one for the next few years because it is impossible to balance a budget and not crush the economy.. Vice versa you can't get people to spend more if they fear for their jobs and investors won't invest if they fear they are going to be ostracized for making money.. The simple fact is greed is ruining every thing for everyone.. The rich are never happy enough with a decent return (some are) and those that cannot provide for themselves can't ever be given enough things to get ahead and when they are provided they tend to squander such gifts (not all the time of course)..

I fear that we are going the way of Rome except for the rest of the world is coming with us kicking and screaming if need be.. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING and we had better get used to it unless we can get out from underneath a mountain of debt both personal and public debt.. I again thing the only thing is a massive default at least in this country because we can never pay back 14 trillion dollars period to think we can is a dream.. I am not willing to destroy my childs future because I can't make a decent living without being corrupt or without morals in my work life.. Having only 2 classes 99% and the 1% is not a good future for any of us...

Keep the ideas coming because only we will solve them and WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FAST...

themud

 

[ocean_jet]

I'm anxious to hear your plan on how to turn our economy around and achieve a fiscally responsible federal government? Please provide details.

First, sorry about the comment about you "happily benefiting from a Marxist tax code". It wasn’t necessary.

As for my plan... I don't have a plan. If I had the support of millions in donations, I would be more than happy to make one... but, government is pay to play these days, and I don't have enough to play. (If I was in charge, changing that would be high on my agenda. I don't believe it was ever intended that America's government be "of the super rich, for the super rich, by the super rich", but that's what we got).

I don't have a specific plan... but there are some thoughts.

I believe that stimulating demand is the key to economic growth... and with demand, capital investment will necessarily follow. NOT the other way around like some politicians seem to think. (Yes, I am getting at capital gains tax vs. income tax).

I believe that any tax system where every citizen doesn't pay an equal share is a socialist tax system. I also believe socialism is necessary in a properly functioning capitalistic democracy… and is not evil. I believe anything BUT a system where each citizen pays an equal share IS social engineering... so therefore, social engineering is a necessary part of our tax code. Because, seriously, no one believes in a system where everyone pays an equal amount.

And, since I believe social engineering is a necessary part of the tax code, I believe very strongly in the concept of upping taxes an those things we want less of, and lowering taxes on those things we want more of. In my opinion, we want commerce. So, we lower sales tax. We want more jobs for American citizens, and opportunities for American capital to be invested. So, we raise taxes on companies that have more foreign involvement in their supply chain, and we lower taxes on companies that have more American involvement in their supply chain. Hell, maybe if your supply chain is 100% American, you pay no corporate tax? (That gets pretty tricky to determine though.)

I believe in striving for "perfect competition" as opposed to "free markets". Free markets by definitions are void of regulation. The economic equivalent of anarchy, with all the same dangers. The benefits typically associated with free markets are actually not realized under free markets, but under perfectly competitive markets. Market equilibrium, and therefore market efficiencies require perfectly competitive markets, not free markets. And perfectly competitive markets REQUIRE outside involvement, in the form of a referee. Therefore, I believe the role of government involvement in otherwise free markets is to enforce the conditions that push markets as close to perfect competition as possible… NOT influencing prices.

I believe in as small a government as possible. But, I also believe in a strong social safety net. I believe in localizing decision making as much as possible. Therefore, I would gut the federal government as much as possible. Anything that could be pushed to states would be, and I would let them decide if they wanted to continue to run the program.

I don’t believe in pitting wage earners against wealth holders. I don’t believe that the time that someone employs is worth less to society than the capital that someone else employs. Further, the argument that capital gains should necessarily be taxed at a rate less than wages to stimulate investment is flawed to the core in my opinion. You can invest capital ‘til the cows come home… but if there is no demand, there is no economy. You stimulate demand by putting disposable income into the MOST hands… and you do that by keeping taxes on WAGES low. (I don’t know the exact figure, by the proportion of people who live off their own of someone else’s WAGES, vs. those who live off capital gains is huge). And, in cases where we need jobs, and we have trillions of capital sitting idle on corporate balance sheets (like we do right now), you should actually be taxing capital gains at a rate higher than wages. Again, on the principal that you raise taxes what you want less of, and lower taxes on what you want more of… it’s obvious… we need more cash in the hands of the masses and more jobs to stimulate demand, and less cash sitting idle on corporate balance sheets. You achieve that by increasing tax on capital gains, and lowering it on jobs (wages). You free up that cash to drive demand.

I believe that debt should be used only for long term infrastructure projects, and NEVER for financing shortfalls in annual operating budgets. We’ve got to stop living above our means at the expense of our children. We are outright stealing from future generations.


As for a plan… I don’t know exactly, but it would certainly include short-term tax increases (followed by long term tax cuts once the debt is under control), tax code simplification, stimulation of demand, huge spending cuts, gutting of the federal government down to core function of defense, management of national resources (national parks, etc.), social safety net, national infrastructure development and management (interstate highways, etc.), enforcing elements of perfect competition (enforcing complete information, etc.).

It would include a balanced budget law, and strictly outlaw the use debt for funding annual expenses. Any use of debt will only be considered for specific long term projects that will provide benefits to society for the long term. It will cap the national debt at some fraction of GNP… maybe in the 20-30% range, not the insane 95+% we are at now. And, in the short term, I would require not only a balanced budget, but an aggressive debt reduction plan…. I’d like to see $1 trillion surpluses every year to pay down debt, but that isn’t realistic.

Anyway, no, I don’t have a plan. But, if you know anyone with a few million to donate to a politician, I would be happy to consider a career change and write one…

 

[XJEEPER]

Well done. I agree with 95% of what you've outlined. Now we just need to identify those in Washington with the same views and hold their feet to the fire to quickly implement and enforce these policies......odd, if they were truly following the Constitution, as they have sworn to do......problems solved.

Too bad we can't just fire them mid-term for failing to perform to their job criteria........

 

[ocean_jet]

I was looking at the US Debt Clock.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

It freaks me out every time I see the "Debt Per Citizen" number. $47,384.

Every man woman and child in America owes almost $50,000. And that's just federal. Most states have considerable debt per person as well. For me in California, it's just shy of $10k. I got two kids, so for me, I am responsible for $180,000 in public debt. (not to mention local government debt).

 

[kastein]

Damn, I think my federal taxes would pay that off in less than two years.

Sadly they are going toward social security, medicare, etc instead.

And yes, the military budget could probably use some cutting also... once the troops are home safe. I will not support any kind of a cut that will put them in worse fighting condition while they are still overseas.

 

[XJEEPER]

Quote of the day.....very Alinsky-esque behavior too. Marx would be proud.

“Now that Moveon.org, Obama and Biden have all come out in support of Occupy Wall Steet, we now know that it was never anything more than just an Obama re-election rally. Somehow, OWS keeps thinking it is “outside” the system when it is in the very center of the system.”

“These days a lot of folks doing the right thing aren’t rewarded, and a lot of folks not doing the right thing are rewarded,” the president said.

“I think people are frustrated and the protesters are giving voice to a more broad frustration about how our financial system works,” Obama went on to say.

When asked why he had not done more to prosecute Wall Street crooks, the president suggested that, although highly immoral practices had occurred, no illegal activity had taken place.

“Part of people’s frustration, part of my frustration, is that a lot of practices going on weren’t against the law,” he said.

Realists, however, may be more inclined to believe the inaction stems from the fact that the Obama administration is chock full of former Wall Street executives.
“Obama has even added new Wall Streeters who did not work for him in 2008, including former Goldman Sachs CEO Jon Corzine, Evercore Partners executive Charles Myers, Greenstreet Real Estate Partners CEO Steven Green, and Azita Raji, a former investment banker for JP Morgan,” according to a study by the Center for Responsive Politics.

Indeed, Obama’s 2012 campaign is reliant on Wall Street to an even greater extent than his 2008 campaign which was almost exclusively bankrolled by Wall Street firms. including Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi Group and JP Morgan Chase.

During today’s press conference, Obama also defended bailouts of the big banks, claiming that the economy would have been even worse if no action had been taken.
In comments sure to cause more concern for free market advocates, Obama added that the government would fight “every step of the way” to ensure there is a consumer watchdog to ensure that the financial sector is regulated.
In separate comments, Vice President Joe Biden stated today that he understood the “frustration” of protesters.

The Occupy Wall Street response on the official forum has been that Obama’s words represent “more of the same”, with many contributors seeing through the rhetoric.

However, the presence of the Obama front group MoveOn.org has amplified on the OWS forum, where last week it was nowhere to be seen. This indicates a coordinated attempt to co-opt the legitimate protest movement.

 

[XJEEPER]

In case there is still any question on who is behind the Occupy Wall Street movement (or more accurately named- Supporters of Obama's Diversion Campaign for re-election in 2012):

AFL-CIO
http://blog.aflcio.org/2011/10/06/union-members-join-biggest-yet-occupy-wall-street-action/

Communist Party USA
http://www.yclusa.org/article/articleview/1994/1/6/

(See related CPUSA links to AFL-CIO hosted CPUSA events and guest speaker Francis Fox Piven- co-creator of the Cloward and Piven Strategy http://cloward-piven.com/ of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis....also see Rules for Radicals-Saul Alinsky)

SEIU
http://www.seiu.org/2011/10/seiu-supports-occupywallstreet.php

Democratic Socialist of America
http://www.dsausa.org/docs/Jobs.html

Moveon.Org
http://front.moveon.org/


Every one of these organizations supported Obama's 2008 election campaign and helped community organization and fund raising for his election.

Oh, I almost forgot....George Soros is also funding this movement, and why not? He's well versed in and has a proven track record of profiting from the manipulation of economies via social unrest worldwide.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/9269-big-soros-money-linked-to-occupy-wall-street

 

[H8PVMT]

Quote of the day.....very Alinsky-esque behavior too. Marx would be proud.

“Now that Moveon.org, Obama and Biden have all come out in support of Occupy Wall Steet, we now know that it was never anything more than just an Obama re-election rally. Somehow, OWS keeps thinking it is “outside” the system when it is in the very center of the system.”

“These days a lot of folks doing the right thing aren’t rewarded, and a lot of folks not doing the right thing are rewarded,” the president said.

“I think people are frustrated and the protesters are giving voice to a more broad frustration about how our financial system works,” Obama went on to say.

When asked why he had not done more to prosecute Wall Street crooks, the president suggested that, although highly immoral practices had occurred, no illegal activity had taken place.

“Part of people’s frustration, part of my frustration, is that a lot of practices going on weren’t against the law,” he said.

Realists, however, may be more inclined to believe the inaction stems from the fact that the Obama administration is chock full of former Wall Street executives.
“Obama has even added new Wall Streeters who did not work for him in 2008, including former Goldman Sachs CEO Jon Corzine, Evercore Partners executive Charles Myers, Greenstreet Real Estate Partners CEO Steven Green, and Azita Raji, a former investment banker for JP Morgan,” according to a study by the Center for Responsive Politics.

Indeed, Obama’s 2012 campaign is reliant on Wall Street to an even greater extent than his 2008 campaign which was almost exclusively bankrolled by Wall Street firms. including Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi Group and JP Morgan Chase.

During today’s press conference, Obama also defended bailouts of the big banks, claiming that the economy would have been even worse if no action had been taken.
In comments sure to cause more concern for free market advocates, Obama added that the government would fight “every step of the way” to ensure there is a consumer watchdog to ensure that the financial sector is regulated.
In separate comments, Vice President Joe Biden stated today that he understood the “frustration” of protesters.

The Occupy Wall Street response on the official forum has been that Obama’s words represent “more of the same”, with many contributors seeing through the rhetoric.

However, the presence of the Obama front group MoveOn.org has amplified on the OWS forum, where last week it was nowhere to be seen. This indicates a coordinated attempt to co-opt the legitimate protest movement.

my wife works for moveon.org and they are no way a re-elect obama front group, they I will agree are very anti-republican beliefs....but since obama wasn't really relevent in 98 I hardly see your point

kinda hard for liberals to get elected when wall street is against them, don't ya think?

 

[XJEEPER]

my wife works for moveon.org and they are no way a re-elect obama front group, they I will agree are very anti-republican beliefs....but since obama wasn't really relevent in 98 I hardly see your point

kinda hard for liberals to get elected when wall street is against them, don't ya think?

98? :dunno:

Moveon.org 2008 fund raising campaign:

"Support our people-powered movement, and help us elect Obama!
From now until November, MoveOn members are swinging into action to elect Barack Obama. Then, we'll work hard to enact a bold, progressive agenda. Our people-powered movement is only possible due to the contributions of you, our members."
https://pol.moveon.org/donate/tenyears.html?id=

"When MoveOn organized an online donation drive for Obama which raised $320,000, the Obama campaign responded in kind with the legally dubious action of paying MoveOn $18,000 in “credit card processing fees”.

The Moveon.org also received a $5 million dollar donation from George Soros, who is a keen supporter.

Obama's dug his own grave on a 2nd term......Moveon.org will distance themselves from him if there is another Progressive Socialist they can back with more promise.


The larger focus should be, with all of these groups working together with the common goal to destabilize the economy.......ask yourself, who profits the most from this and who is funding the movement?

 

[Boatwrench]

98? :dunno:

Moveon.org 2008 fund raising campaign:

"Support our people-powered movement, and help us elect Obama!
From now until November, MoveOn members are swinging into action to elect Barack Obama. Then, we'll work hard to enact a bold, progressive agenda. Our people-powered movement is only possible due to the contributions of you, our members."

So an anti-Republican agency backs the Democratic candidate and the AFL-CIO & SEIU supporter a candidate that is working american friendly. Big Deal.

Would you really have expected anything different?

 

[XJEEPER]

In reading from the linked sources, I see the following objectives of the OWS movement:

§ Reform the current US financial system
§ Burn down the current US financial system
§ Create a crisis for corporations, which will force them to make a change
§ Fight for economic and social justice and to redistribute wealth and political power from the hands of a few to the working class majority
§ Force policy change to create a fair tax structure
§ Force politicians to create policy that separates the government from commerce
§ Force Obama to create more jobs, higher wages, benefits
§ Overthrow and eliminate capitalism
§ Implement socialism as a segway to communism
§ Impeach Obama for lying about eliminating cronyism, because he collected election funds from Wall Street heavy hitters, whom he later appointed to his cabinet.
§ Try and imprison bank execs for their role in causing the financial crisis
§ Try and imprison elected officials who forced banks to lend money to those who couldn’t afford to repay the loans
§ Try and imprison execs tied to Freddie Mac and Fannie May for their role in the housing crisis, which negatively impacted financial institutions
§ Try and imprison elected officials for their roles in conspiring with FM and FM on housing and lending policy
§ Work together to support the immediately passage of the American Jobs Act
§ Stop the assault on the poor and working-class Americans

§ Engaging in direct and transparent participatory democracy;
§ Exercising personal and collective responsibility;
§ Recognizing individuals’ inherent privilege and the influence it has on all interactions;
§ Empowering one another against all forms of oppression;
§ Redefining how labor is valued;
§ The sanctity of individual privacy;
§ The belief that education is human right; and
§ Endeavoring to practice and support wide application of open source.

 

[ocean_jet]

The "New York" colelctive has made an official statement:

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers' healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people's lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

 

[XJEEPER]

I support their 1st Amendment right to peacefully assemble.

I'd like to see their detailed solutions for each of their noted issues.

I would really like them to point out exactly where in the US Constitution does it state that citizen have the right to a free college education, and define it as a human right?