[RANT] California Air Police

[ChairOhKey]

Don't move to Oregon. Tell your kind to stop coming. haha

 

[5-90]

Don't move to Oregon. Tell your kind to stop coming. haha

Why for? "My kind" - people like me - would throw out the Yuppies anyhow. Damn fools are spreading everywhere... I'd be happy to get them out of what's left of my hair. Permanently.

Let them all go in and buy an island somewhere, and F that up to their heart's content. I'd send them to Antarctica, but I've been there myself (and actually like the place.)

However, an Arctic ice floe does have its appeal...

 

[Art Triggs]

NY checks obdII and a visual check to see that all the required parts are on the vehicle, I manage to bust up a cat almost every other year , so the rear 02 sensor and cat are new, my numbers always end up being in whatever their good range is supposed to be.

 

[mecompco]

Around 15 years ago or so, the great State of Maine decided to institute CA style emissions testing. You had to pay to get your vehicle sniffed before you could get an inspection sticker. They set up a big beaucracy, hired an out-of-state company to build and run the test facilities and implemented the plan.

Well, they were rudely awakened to the fact that, basically, no body bothered to get their cars tested. It was mass civil disobedience on pretty much a state-wide basis. Within a year or so, they recinded the law and closed down the test sites (getting sued by the company they contracted with) and we all went back about our business.

I guess this anecdote won't help you, but you are welcome to move up here and pay your $12 a year for an inspection sticker with no emissions BS.

 

[Bryan C.]

As a California licensed smog check mechanic I think the whole test only system is a bunch of crap. Last I heard was that 70% of the gas powered vehicles on the road are being directed to test only stations. That includes both of my XJ's, neither of which has ever failed, not to mention the XJs that my sister and nephew own go to test only stations too. Since they require a test only station to smog it, I actually have to pay to have my own car smogged. Considering the amount of training and testing I have to do to keep my license valid you would think they would cut us a little break. Now think about all the repair shops who spent over $50K for their smog check II machine and dyno only to have their smog business dry up because all the cars are going to test only shops. There is some serious grumbling going on in the industry about this, but who knows where it will go. Seems like the EPA and California air resouces board have more clout than the actual citizens of this state and this is what they wanted. In the mean time, suck it up and pay your cash for the test, just like th rest of us Californians do.:nosmile:

 

[casm]

As a California licensed smog check mechanic I think the whole test only system is a bunch of crap. Last I heard was that 70% of the gas powered vehicles on the road are being directed to test only stations.

I'm not surprised to hear this statistic at all. Those of us here in the oddball car hobby noticed a few years ago that we were suddenly being sent to test-only stations even when the vehicles in question had never had a fail or received a gross polluter. Since most of us were driving orphan marques (Alfa-Romeo, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat, etc.) we figured it was probably someone in the Sacramento Smog Nazi Department being a jerk and going after the very small percentage of orphans still on the road rather than the far more numerous late-'80s cars I'd see belching smoke on the freeway.

Then we started to notice something else: a lot of folks with a 'normal' vehicle over eight years old were starting to get the same treatment, even if they had never had any issues passing previously. Test-only stations were springing up everywhere, and the local shops that had previously done regular tests were giving up on smog tests due to the cost of the new equipment. Coincidentally, this started happening around the time that the relaxed emissions requirements for certain counties was removed and the uniform test brought in. And, naturally, hybrids are exempt from testing, even though they have gasoline engines and the same gamut of smog equipment as any other vehicle on sale today...

The best theory I've come up with for this is that CARB and the DMV are trying to move all emissions testing into dedicated facilities at the expense of the owners of those facilities - effectively, State-contracted emissions testing without the State having to enter into an actual contract with the owner, or pay for the owner's equipment every time they change the regulations. The DMV has been suspicious of independent shops conducting smog checks for a long time now, assuming them all to be crooked - this is likely their way of of phasing them out of business in the most legal way possible.

Incidentally, I heard a rumour that the new machines contain a connector into which a camera can be plugged, the idea being that video of the vehicle being tested can be taken and stored in case there's ever a dispute over a ringer car being used to get a pass for one that would otherwise fail. Don't know if there's any truth to it or not, but it's certainly an interesting bit of unconfirmed info.

That includes both of my XJ's, neither of which has ever failed, not to mention the XJs that my sister and nephew own go to test only stations too. Since they require a test only station to smog it, I actually have to pay to have my own car smogged.

If it's any consolation, I got hit with a test-only on my then-six-year-old XJ last September. Frickin' stupid, if you ask me. The only reason I could come up with for it was that it's a 49-State vehicle registered here under an address change from the previous owner, who brought it in from Oklahoma.

 

[Bryan C.]

The best theory I've come up with for this is that CARB and the DMV are trying to move all emissions testing into dedicated facilities at the expense of the owners of those facilities - effectively, State-contracted emissions testing without the State having to enter into an actual contract with the owner, or pay for the owner's equipment every time they change the regulations. The DMV has been suspicious of independent shops conducting smog checks for a long time now, assuming them all to be crooked - this is likely their way of of phasing them out of business in the most legal way possible.

There is quite a bit of truth to this statement. For a long time now repair shops who perform smog checks have been under scrutiny based on the number of smog check failures and subsequent repairs. The whole idea of the test-only station was to provide a neutral place for testing and providing the state with a pass/fail ratio to use to spot fraudulent repair shops who failed more than the normal amount of tests. Seems that the system worked so well that the expanded it far beyond its original intent. There is talk about state-run centralizes testing, but like you say the state doesn't want to pay for all this specialized equiptment that is required by the state itself to perform the inspections. Nobody wants centralized testing here in California, but this test-only crap is just one step closer to it.

 

[RichP]

There is quite a bit of truth to this statement. For a long time now repair shops who perform smog checks have been under scrutiny based on the number of smog check failures and subsequent repairs. The whole idea of the test-only station was to provide a neutral place for testing and providing the state with a pass/fail ratio to use to spot fraudulent repair shops who failed more than the normal amount of tests. Seems that the system worked so well that the expanded it far beyond its original intent. There is talk about state-run centralizes testing, but like you say the state doesn't want to pay for all this specialized equiptment that is required by the state itself to perform the inspections. Nobody wants centralized testing here in California, but this test-only crap is just one step closer to it.

I have lived in states that did both, NJ has state run stations, cut and dried inspections with no financial gains for failing you vs states with private inspection and repair stations that do have a financial interest in failing you and finding problems. I'll take a state run one anyday unless I have a good relationship with the owner of a private one who will just slap a sticker on. The downside of a state run one is if the state decides to go after say a certain genre of vehicles they can and there is no recourse.
Kind of like those pro-metric testing centers for various certifications whose income is based on how many take the tests, fail them and have to retake them again at full price.

 

[Darky]

I've spent the last half-hour on the phone with them (ten minutes of that was spent wading through IVR...) and got more answers that I didn't like.

Apparently, the Feds are also involved - extorting California (who does enough extortion on their own, thank you very much...) by threatening to withhold their "matched tax dollars" or whatever - which is, oddly enough, our money in the first place. WTF?)

Why did I call? I'm being sent - for the THIRD time in a row - to a "Test Only" station. Why for? I'm still not sure - the guy I was talking to (Marvin - actually quite helpful) was able to look up my numbers on his terminal

My last failure was in 1999 (I don't recall why,) and I've consistently shown good numbers since. Hell, he said I show better numbers than vehicles ten years newer!

So, why for am I going to "Test Only" stations, and paying $90 for a smog test on a $55 renewal? Because, despite my numbers, I'm still lumped into a "gross emitter" category because my vehicle is 20 years old (Hm - how long is that "rolling exemption?" 25 years, or 30?) and, apparently, this class of vehicle "commonly fails test." Bugger.

1) I plan to write my state reps - I'm getting tired of this.
2) If you own an XJ in CA, please PLEASE please maintain it well and lower your emissions numbers. For all of our sakes - I can't be the only one getting hot under the collar about this! It's bad enough our renewals are going up on their own ($55 this year, $46 last year. WTF?) Hell, if you own an XJ and are under the thumb of the Air Police anywhere in the country, let's work on this. It's possible to have nearly zero emissions with these things. If I can do it on RENIX, you can do it with HO easily enough (if they'd let me work a few things out, I could put my emissions even lower...)
3) Perhaps more of us should take Item #1 to task, and get these people snowed under with paper. They don't seem to be thinking...

[/RANT]

Note that, for the record, I have nothing against "trying to improve air quality" or whatever they're calling it this week - I just get tired of the way they're trying to do it. Apply some thinking to the problem. If you're going to make a decision on a technical issue, learn something about the technology and how it works - first. Don't rely on advisors, either...

I don't know where you go but at Smog Dogs here in JT, I paid only $55, period, no extra $90 for nothin.

 

[5-90]

I don't know where you go but at Smog Dogs here in JT, I paid only $55, period, no extra $90 for nothin.

Must be a Ghey Area thing. Regular smog checks (Test & Repair Station) typically cost $30-40 + $7 (if you pass?!?) while Test Only Stations run up around $80-90 + $7.

The idea of having to pay for the Smog Check is goophy enough, but the additional fee for if you pass stinks of stupidity to me. Shouldn't you get docked for failing, rather than passing?

 

[Darky]

I liked NJ though, the sniffers were run by the state at the state inspection stations which are drive thru types. They don't fool around, after sitting in line for 20 min or so they run you thru, stick the sniffer up the tailpipe and either pass or fail you, rechecks don't cost anything. Don't know if it's still the same though, that was 14 years ago but the stations still look the same, at least in Morristown.
Pa now is changing to the output of the OBD system, no sniffer or visual on OBD II and above, they just plug you in to the snapon box and printout the readings, done. They can't change any settings or use a judgement call or fudge the readings for an expensive BS repair, it's cut and dried.
Pretty much whatever state you go to they all have their 'thing' that is very annoying, PA used to have 2x a year inspections and that was a real PIA, Hawaii it was 2x's a year if the vehicle was over 10 years old.

That's how it was when I lived in AZ. I didn't mind that. Took my XJ in last year they just plugged in and said I was good. My Tracker read zero emissions once. I had a few holes knocked in the exhaust however from rocks and such...

 

[casm]

Must be a Ghey Area thing. Regular smog checks (Test & Repair Station) typically cost $30-40 + $7 (if you pass?!?) while Test Only Stations run up around $80-90 + $7.

Test Only here is in the $65-$80 region depending on which one you go to. They all hit you with the $7.95 (or thereabouts) fee, though - IIRC, it's listed as something idiotic like 'certificate fee' or 'DMV notification fee'. If I can dig up my last smog check, I'll add specifics to this.

The idea of having to pay for the Smog Check is goophy enough, but the additional fee for if you pass stinks of stupidity to me. Shouldn't you get docked for failing, rather than passing?

Personally, I don't think that anyone should be docked either way - after all, the State mandates that we have to have these checks, but they're not there for punitive reasons. Some guy who really needs his car to get to and from his job at McDonald's or similar shouldn't have to incur a financial hit because it fails - he needs that money to have it put right, and shouldn't have further hurdles put in front of him to making it right.

Of course, if it's a smoke-belching, run-into-the-ground vehicle... There are better decisions that could have been made ahead of time in terms of choice of transport.

 

[8Mud]

Just a thought, that hasn't really gelled yet. But much of it seems ot be a buearocratic technique to urge people to get newer more efficient vehicles.
Same thing with the gas tax, pushes the price of fuel up, to encourage people to get more efficient vehicles.
Recently got in an argument with one of the wifes liberal friends. She was trying to brow beat me, with her new mini coffin. We spent hours, looking up the carbon footprint for the *production* of her new car. I'm using the carbon footprint as an equal for the pollution, they likely extrapolate.
I grant you the numbers are in no way scientific, but likely close. After figuring in the carbon footprint of her new car production, the percentage of footprint by the employees that produced the car, the footprint of the dealership and others. She became carbon equal after five years, plus or minus, with a car designed to last for 7-8 years. The last three years it produced about half of the carbon and pollutants as her old car did (it is half the size of the old one).
By my logic, she paid nearly $25,000 for a car, that lowered a year and a half of pollution. Her old car was actually in pretty good shape and better built than the new one. Double the size and likely twice as safe, it was a Volvo.
It doesn't take a large leap, to figure money as directly extrapolating to carbon and/or pollution. Are you actually saving the environment by spending money? Money equals productivity (production), equals pollution, can you actually and factually lower pollution by buying anything.
Linear thinking run amuck, again. New equals better, because it pollutes less.
The only real way to make any progress is to build them once and make them last as long as possible.
They really like to paint there solutions with a very broad brush. And the lower paid people are the ones that suffer the most (by percentage of gross).
The only way to do it fairly is with fees, pegged to income.
The state is happy to take any fees it can, sales tax, road tax, gas tax, inspection fee. By jerking off the consumer, they are helping themselves and justifying it with there linear environmental hogwash.
If there is any real logic to the whole process, I find it very hard to detect.

 

[casm]

Much of it seems ot be a buearocratic technique to urge people to get newer more efficient vehicles.

Yes and no. I see where you're going with this - but bear in mind that older vehicles are only held to the smog standards of their year of manufacture, not whatever happens to be en vogue for the current model year. There are also ways to get temporary exemptions that allow a failed vehicle to be legally-registered, but the hoops that you have to jump through (and attached conditions, at least in California) typically don't make it worth the effort when it's easier to just go buy something that does pass.

Having said that, I note with some irony that for as gung-ho as our government is on pushing us all into hybrids, I still receive the 'thank you for helping us remove x amount of tons of pollutants from the atmosphere' note tacked on to every passing certificate I've received. I'll restrain from going into the argument of a well-maintained older vehicle being better for the environment in the long run than driving the latest, greatest, most fuel-efficient econobox off of the dealer's lot.

Same thing with the gas tax, pushes the price of fuel up, to encourage people to get more efficient vehicles.

True, but remember that in the US it's a flat-rate tax (both State and Federal) as opposed to most EU nations where it's a percentage. Both California and DC get the exact same cut here if it's $3.50 per gallon or $0.75/gallon.

The only real way to make any progress is to build them once and make them last as long as possible.

But all evil comes from the tailpipe - sort of an in inverse Zardoz (and if anyone else gets that reference, colour me impressed.).

If there is any real logic to the whole process, I find it very hard to detect.

There is none. It's entirely knee-jerk legislation designed to make the sheep feel happy and self-righteous about their purchasing decisions.

 

[8Mud]

Yes and no. I see where you're going with this - but bear in mind that older vehicles are only held to the smog standards of their year of manufacture, not whatever happens to be en vogue for the current model year. There are also ways to get temporary exemptions that allow a failed vehicle to be legally-registered, but the hoops that you have to jump through (and attached conditions, at least in California) typically don't make it worth the effort when it's easier to just go buy something that does pass.

Having said that, I note with some irony that for as gung-ho as our government is on pushing us all into hybrids, I still receive the 'thank you for helping us remove x amount of tons of pollutants from the atmosphere' note tacked on to every passing certificate I've received. I'll restrain from going into the argument of a well-maintained older vehicle being better for the environment in the long run than driving the latest, greatest, most fuel-efficient econobox off of the dealer's lot.



True, but remember that in the US it's a flat-rate tax (both State and Federal) as opposed to most EU nations where it's a percentage. Both California and DC get the exact same cut here if it's $3.50 per gallon or $0.75/gallon.



But all evil comes from the tailpipe - sort of an in inverse Zardoz (and if anyone else gets that reference, colour me impressed.).



There is none. It's entirely knee-jerk legislation designed to make the sheep feel happy and self-righteous about their purchasing decisions.

I like the way your mind works.
Zardoz? Wasn't that the first movie Sean Connery did without the rug?
I think of it more like the "Time Machine" the Eloi being eaten by the Morlocks.

 

[5-90]

Correct - that's why most capitals are referred to as "Logic-Free Zones." Pity...

As far as the Zardoz thing, even with the roles reversed, I'm still inclined to think it more along the lines of The Gods Must Be Crazy. Leastwise, they aren't making any sense from here

(I always did like Connery - and my granddad looked a lot like him. More hair, tho...)

If you want to think roles, I'm wondering how long before the Morlocks among us decide we've had enough, and it's time for dinner... (Let's see just how well-read you really are!)

I do concur that driving a well-maintained older vehicle longer is going to be better for the environment, over the long haul, than constantly buying the "latest and greatest" "for the environment." Less pollution involved due to reduced manufacturing, you are only replacing parts rather than the whole vehicle - and most guys like us even recycle the parts that we aren't charged a core deposit for (I fund quite a few projects from scrap metal.)

You may want to bear in mind, however, that while Federal gasoline tax is consistent across the country, state gasoline taxes vary from (get this!) state to state. It will be consistent throughout the state - but, of course, state sales tax is applied - and that can vary from county to county (like it does here.) The tax may be a flat rate, but the rate can vary.

Of course, that does beg the question of "What do they do with all those tax dollars?" Excise taxes (registration fees, taxes on tyres, and the state gasoline tax) are meant to be applied to the roadways - but they're in such a state of disrepair out here that I wonder if those dollars aren't just going right into the General Fund, and "funding" congresscritters... The Federal gasoline tax dollars are used to extort compliance with Federal policies (am I the only one who realises that, when the Feds try to withhold money for some reason, it's our money they're taking away from us?)

There's no deep thinking going into the legislation to begin with, there's no deep thinking being done about the legislation as passed - before or after - and then everyone wonders what's going on.

"Spirit of '76 - Re-elect Nobody!"

Zardoz. I probably haven't seen that movie in 20 years...

 

[RichP]

Correct - that's why most capitals are referred to as "Logic-Free Zones." Pity...

As far as the Zardoz thing, even with the roles reversed, I'm still inclined to think it more along the lines of The Gods Must Be Crazy. Leastwise, they aren't making any sense from here

(I always did like Connery - and my granddad looked a lot like him. More hair, tho...)

If you want to think roles, I'm wondering how long before the Morlocks among us decide we've had enough, and it's time for dinner... (Let's see just how well-read you really are!)

I do concur that driving a well-maintained older vehicle longer is going to be better for the environment, over the long haul, than constantly buying the "latest and greatest" "for the environment." Less pollution involved due to reduced manufacturing, you are only replacing parts rather than the whole vehicle - and most guys like us even recycle the parts that we aren't charged a core deposit for (I fund quite a few projects from scrap metal.)

You may want to bear in mind, however, that while Federal gasoline tax is consistent across the country, state gasoline taxes vary from (get this!) state to state. It will be consistent throughout the state - but, of course, state sales tax is applied - and that can vary from county to county (like it does here.) The tax may be a flat rate, but the rate can vary.

Of course, that does beg the question of "What do they do with all those tax dollars?" Excise taxes (registration fees, taxes on tyres, and the state gasoline tax) are meant to be applied to the roadways - but they're in such a state of disrepair out here that I wonder if those dollars aren't just going right into the General Fund, and "funding" congresscritters... The Federal gasoline tax dollars are used to extort compliance with Federal policies (am I the only one who realises that, when the Feds try to withhold money for some reason, it's our money they're taking away from us?)

There's no deep thinking going into the legislation to begin with, there's no deep thinking being done about the legislation as passed - before or after - and then everyone wonders what's going on.

"Spirit of '76 - Re-elect Nobody!"

Zardoz. I probably haven't seen that movie in 20 years...

Keep in mind here in the US that every gallon of gas you pump is taxed 3x when it hits your tank. The barrel of oil is taxed by the feds and state, domesitic crude is taxed when it leaves the ground, import crude is taxed when it comes in the country,the final product is taxed when it leaves the refinery and then it is taxed again when it is pumped into your tank or gas can. Pa used to have a chart on every pump listing the taxes, that was back in 92 or so, when gas was under a buck a gallon, .45 were state and federal taxes. The state passed some obscure law that forced the stations to take those charts down and not display them, they were considered inflamatory and with PA being a 'self service' state that sign was right in front of you while you were pumping gas and even the most oblivious person would start thinking. When I first started driving in 69 economy 'weasel piss' regular was .17 gallon, sunoco 260 was ~.45 for the 107 octane.

 

[goodburbon]

I found the solution.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1PfE9K8j0g


socailism...or is it communism? It's illegal either way.

 

[Glenn B]

I found the solution.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1PfE9K8j0g


socailism...or is it communism? It's illegal either way.

That poor excuse for a woman is a loon.

 

[5-90]

Keep in mind here in the US that every gallon of gas you pump is taxed 3x when it hits your tank. The barrel of oil is taxed by the feds and state, domesitic crude is taxed when it leaves the ground, import crude is taxed when it comes in the country,the final product is taxed when it leaves the refinery and then it is taxed again when it is pumped into your tank or gas can. Pa used to have a chart on every pump listing the taxes, that was back in 92 or so, when gas was under a buck a gallon, .45 were state and federal taxes. The state passed some obscure law that forced the stations to take those charts down and not display them, they were considered inflamatory and with PA being a 'self service' state that sign was right in front of you while you were pumping gas and even the most oblivious person would start thinking. When I first started driving in 69 economy 'weasel piss' regular was .17 gallon, sunoco 260 was ~.45 for the 107 octane.

Don't remind me. I still don't entirely understand why we have to pay taxes on money already taxed (probably several times!) when we get paid...

I still would prefer an NRST of 7-10%. You keep what you get paid, have (some) control over how much tax you pay, and it would reduce government funding (which should reduce the number of unproductive individuals in the "workforce.") Revenue neutral? I'd prefer not - any idea what percentage of the population is in government service (not including "vital services" - police, fire, military, and the like) and doesn't actually produce anything?

Granted, I have been known to have objections to some of what we've been doing with our armed forces, but I have never objected to our armed forces as a rule (unlike most of the talking heads and mock celebrities, I'm able to make a distinction there.)