Project Scope Creep (alfred): Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

[Hopkins]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I broke several 1/2" breakers bars trying get the hub nut off also. Moved up to 3/4" and still couldn't get it to budge. Figured out to put the tire back on with the wheel's center cap removed. Lower the jeep back to the ground so that weight is on the tire. Insert socket w/ breaker bar through the center hole on the wheel. Then the hub nut pops right off with the tire keeping the hub assembly from moving at all. Probably would have worked with a 1/2" also if I had to guess.

 

[dan1977p]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Pb blaster and heat will help with rusted nuts. Most nuts were rusted when I started but after propane and pb blaster, I rarely needed my 1/2" breaker bar.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Rust was not the issue. Just ridiculously overtightened. I picked up my 3/4" drive socket this morning about 10am and had both sides done by lunch time. I hit it with everything:

3/8" ratchet is just for scale.

Finally back on the road for the first time since Thanksgiving.

Now I need to get the rear swapped. 4.10 in the front and 3.07 in the rear isn't going to work so well.

One step at a time.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep

Why arent you replacing the bearings? Zero preload on those carrier bearings will not end well, "worn in" or not... zero is zero. Once you hit the throttle, your entire carrier is gonna shift torwards the drivers side, adding excessive backlash.

It is sounding as if this is exactly correct.

I have an interesting whine up front when things are cold, and a bit of a different whine when on the freeway.

There is currently no driveshaft in place for the front, but I am betting the whine is courtesy of bad bearings.

Time to figure out how much it is going to cost me in tools and time vs cost to pay someone to replace the bearings.

Scope Creep continues.

 

[dan1977p]

Re: Project Scope Creep

It is sounding as if this is exactly correct.

I have an interesting whine up front when things are cold, and a bit of a different whine when on the freeway.

There is currently no driveshaft in place for the front, but I am betting the whine is courtesy of bad bearings.

Time to figure out how much it is going to cost me in tools and time vs cost to pay someone to replace the bearings.

Scope Creep continues.

I have a very minimal tool setup and the only things I had to buy for doing my gears were a dial indicator for backlash (which I will need with rebuilding my TC88 in the future) and a 1/4 torque wrench so I could measure the pinion bearing preload to 12-20 INCH pounds. I happen to have a press and a bearing puller plate that helped but wasn't necessary as you can rent the bearing puller and can use a BFH, an old race and a hard wood block to pound the bearings on after you've set the gears up properly.

I'm about to reset my D30 gears on the right carrier tonight and will be done with my setup bearings if you want me to mail them to you for the cost of shipping. If you have a dremel, you can make your own out of your old bearings and I would recommend if you are resetting the gears anyway to get new bearings for the pinion and carrier anyway.

As for time, expect at least 8 hours for your first time, especially if you don't use setup bearings.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

If your setup bearings were made from new bearings I will take you up on that offer.

I don't see how making setup bearings from my old bearings would work. My understanding of my situation is that my old bearings are the problem because they are abused and worn out. They are allowing excessive clearance.

I think if someone is taking apart a perfectly good ring and pinion in order to change the gear ratio then the old bearings stand a fair chance of still being useful as setup bearings. In my case I am keeping the ring and pinion that is there and only replacing bearings which are worn out.

I have a bearing kit on order from Robert at RWKHaus Supply. I have a dial indicator, a bearing separator and a hydraulic press. I still need to source an inch/lb beam or dial torque wrench. I am hoping a good breaker bar will overcome my lack of an air compressor for running an impact. I am also hoping I don't wind up desperate for an oil slinger or some such thing.

I have no doubt I will be asking for feedback here once I get some tooth patterns.

 

[dan1977p]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

They are from good used bearings and when replacing with new, you add a shim to both sides. You cant measure the preload on the carrier anyway so you snug it to the point you need to lightly tap it in. Bearing caps are 65 ft lb and you won't need to pull the ring bolts. I don't use my impact if I'm not pulling the ring bolts.

Got my torque wrench from summit.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I have my new bearings. Robert at RWKHaus Supply got that front taken care of quickly. I am still waiting on some of the other pieces though, like the U-bolt yoke, and some tools. I spent today working on my yoke holder. Figure if I try to get by with just a pipe wrench something is going to go sideways. That has been the nature of this project.

I was not impressed with any of the options for yoke holding tools to purchase and decided that was one candidate to build myself.

Measuring the yokes on the D30 and Chrysler 8.25 I decided I needed a piece of steel at least 3/8" thick and at least 2.5" x 4", and one side or the other needed to have a bit extra for an attachment point. I couldn't find anything suitable in my own scrap pile so I went to Industrial Metal Supply and in their $0.40/lb scrap pile found an odd remnant of 1/2" thick angle iron that looked well suited to the task. A little Cardboard Aided Design and it looks promising:

I cut it out and bored the hole, leaving myself extra material to play with on two sides. My cheater bar of choice is a near 5' long piece of 1" galvanized water pipe. The I.D. is actually just a bit larger than 1". It fits perfectly over my breaker bar or my 3/4" drive ratchet. I decided to design my yoke holder to work with that, and so picked a piece of 1" O.D. DOM tubing. I would have liked thicker wall than what I found, but I will see how it goes. If it bends I will cut and grind this one off and find myself a better piece. I would love to have a mill and be able to make a handle out of solid bar stock, but no such luck so far.

Ready for the angle grinder:

Two cuts with the cut-off wheel and then some dressing to fit with a grinding wheel and it is almost ready to weld:

I don't want to weld it up until I drill the holes for the yoke bolts. I figure it will be easier to lay out those once the new yoke arrives, so I will continue to wait for the man in brown.

Playing around with how it fits under the Jeep I probably will not need the cheater bar at all for the front axle. The handle is just long enough to be held by the lower control arm on the driver's side. I didn't plan that, but it looks like it should work out fine. If anything, I was trying to keep the handle fairly short so this tool won't be a pain to store.

 

[xcm]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

there should be about 1/64" of movement back and fourth.

Not trying to be a dick, Just did the math for shits n giggles, 1/64 = .0156, which is excessive. Youd need 1/124"! , which is .007! talk about way out of the realm of conventional measurements! Puts things in perspective.

 

[Native Band]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Soon as you built that case spreader, I couldn't see your a** for very long before it disappeared "down that rabbit hole". lol

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Well, I got started on it today, but I am at most about halfway through. I am very seriously debating how to proceed with regard to the shims for the pinion.

Let me explain where I am at.

I started by taking some baseline measurements just to see what I would find. Pinion preload, with the axles removed but the carrier still in place was a whopping 2.5 in/lbs. Backlash on the ring gear was 0.016". No side to side play whatever (tried using a lever at each side, no movement--I was happy to find that).

Pulled the carrier (rag trick, pry bar), got the pinion nut off, got the yoke off, drove the pinion into the diff and made sure to catch it, and then noticed some interesting marks on the bearing cage of the inner pinion bearing. Little shiny spots all around the cage. Then I saw what caused them:

Here is a better picture of what is going on at 3 and 9 o'clock:

No doubt I added a bit more damage in the process of driving out that race. There doesn't seem to be any intelligent way to get that baffle out without damaging it. Interestingly enough a new baffle is not included in the kit I have, and I expect it wasn't included in the kit used by whoever re-did this axle. Unfortunately, whoever that was did not try to remedy the situation either. It is not a particularly complex part. I was measuring there to figure out what I needed as a tool. A 2" O.D. piece of pipe or round bar would have been perfect. Closest I had handy was about 1 7/8" O.D., but it did the job well enough. I used the old bearing race as a support underneath. Some careful massaging and I got this:

Now the dilemma: I know my measured pinion preload is ridiculously low. I was counting on new bearings being the solution, but looking at this baffle and what the previous installer did I now have to wonder about the validity of the shim pack. I planned to reinstall everything just as it had been, but now I am thinking I probably need to take something out of the stack of small shims that go in the middle of the pinion. That stack of four or five between the bearings here:

My rationale is that the previous installed included all that friction against the baffle as part of his pinion preload. Now that friction should be gone. But how much do I take out?

And am I correct in my understanding that once you tighten everything down and draw that outer pinion bearing down the shaft there is no way to take it back apart and still expect that bearing to be usable? Somewhere I read that the disassembly essentially destroys that bearing. I think the idea is that the bearing cage and the race are what is being used as a press when driving the pinion out. Both suffer from the process. Is that correct? And is it now time to get some setup bearings?

 

[5.9longarmXJ]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Use a dial indicator to measure backlash. look at this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouq67Fyt5K8
Push and hold ring gear downward while not
allowing the pinion gear to rotate. Dial indicator reading should be between 0.12 mm (0.005 in.) and 0.20 mm (0.008 in.).

This is how much the carrier should "rotate" with the pinion held tight. Technically you should measure it at about 8 locations all the way around the ring gear to make sure it is true. There should be no more than 0.002 in difference in all the measurements.
Too much backlash and the ring gear needs to be shimmed more towards the pinion gear.
Too little backlash and the ring gear needs to be shimmed away from the pinion gear.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I think I got that.

Note the bit of a blue Quick-Grip clamp in the background. That is holding the yoke fixed. Yoke holder is bolted to the yoke and the handle clamped to the LCA.

Rock the ring gear one way:

Rock the ring gear the opposite way:

I only bothered to check in one spot. All I cared about was proof that this thing is out of tolerance. I got it.

My question for those with experience is on the subject of the pinion preload and how far out of whack my shim pack is likely to be given the messed up baffle that was in there.

 

[xcm]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

And am I correct in my understanding that once you tighten everything down and draw that outer pinion bearing down the shaft there is no way to take it back apart and still expect that bearing to be usable? Somewhere I read that the disassembly essentially destroys that bearing. I think the idea is that the bearing cage and the race are what is being used as a press when driving the pinion out. Both suffer from the process. Is that correct? And is it now time to get some setup bearings?

No. Nope. No.

Consider yourself starting from scratch, youtube it.
Taking pics of the dial indicator is fail. You dont need photographic proof, you need numbers.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

These were the starting numbers:

Pinion preload, with the axles removed but the carrier still in place was a whopping 2.5 in/lbs. Backlash on the ring gear was 0.016". No side to side play whatever (tried using a lever at each side, no movement--I was happy to find that).

Next set of numbers doesn't come until I reassemble the whole thing.

FSM states that driving the pinion back out will damage the front bearing rollers and the bearing cup and that these must then be replaced. Sounds like an expensive way to test a setup.

If the FSM is wrong or my interpretation is wrong then I am all ears.

 

[5.9longarmXJ]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Pre load for used bearings should be 10-20 inch pounds. Its been a while, but pretty sure pre-load is measured with carrier out. You only need to know if the pinion bearings are loaded enough. With "used bearings" it should be 10-20 inch pounds to rotate the pinion new bearings is 10-30. I believe you said you measured it with the carrier in? That would definitely affect the reading. In this axle, the bearings should be okay if you have to take the pinion back out, be gentle. If the reading you had of a whopping 2.5 inch pounds was accurate, you need to remove some ships to put the bearings under more load. I you indeed measured preload with the carrier in. I would reinstall original shim setup and measure preload again. Not sure why the baffle was bent up?

 

[5.9longarmXJ]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

You are right about that upper bearing. You are pressing against it. I always used an extra bearing in the upper for setup. Not sure if you replaced them, or if you have an extra to ream out so it slides on and off easy. This way you can verify your shims. The bearings themselves may have a subtle difference in thickness, but usually not that much.

 

[5.9longarmXJ]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I just hope whoever set it up, set pinion depth correctly.

 

[Anak]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

You and me both.

I think what happened is that they damaged the baffle in the process of driving out the inner race. I don't see any way around damaging that baffle unless you have a special driver. They then reassembled things with the damaged baffle and the damaged baffle was right up against the bearing cage. That interference then became part of the measured pinion preload. Except, over time, the bearing cage ground away at the baffle and then reduced the bearing preload. And yes, 2.5 in/lbs is what I measured with a new dial torque wrench.

And there is the question of whether or not it would have allowed the pinion to have moved back away from the ring gear as the baffle wore down? I am not sure how much resistance the inner edges of that baffle could offer against the pressure of the torqued pinion nut.

I can imagine the installer having fits trying to find the balance between the torque setting and the preload.

:confused1

 

[5.9longarmXJ]

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Sounds like you've done your homework and are on top of it. Where in SoCal are you?