Petition to Stop Federal Funding of Ground Zero Mosque

[H8PVMT]

The proposed cutural center is not 10 blocks away, it is 4. The building was an old Burlington Coat factory store. It was condemned after 9/11 because landing gear from one of the jets landed on the top floor of the structure causing enough damage to condemn the building. I personally think that makes it close enough to ground zero.

I need to get my notes out, but there was a catholic church damaged by the collapsing towers that was denied federal funding for rebuilding. This supports the no federal funds for religious purposes.

But I believe the total separation of Church and state as is now being vindicated is way beyond what the founding fathers wanted. Does anybody realize that of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, about 50% of them were ordained ministers? Does anybody realize the second verse of our national anthem speaks specifically of God (yes, there really is a second verse). Has anybody given thought why say the Supreme Court building has so many church articles and references on it? Sorry, but giving reference to a specific item does not count for the whole picture. Back in 1776, I do not believe there was a muslim problem in the USA. Yes, it is a real problem today. Update: There is a muslim problem in the world, not just the USA. Throwing liberal thoughts at the problem will only make the muslims laugh at the stupid Americans. Need proof, there is a certain retired Army Colonel now a congressman down in Florida. I believe he was retired because he met muslims with an eye for an eye. The Army kicked him out because he got a captured muslim to tell where his captured men were being held. Don't bother starting with the poor muslim, he was in captivity routine. How many captured civilians and military personnel have been beheaded on camera by the poor muslims? How many dead bodies of US Servicemen have been dragged thru streets on camera by the poor muslims? How many muslim rallies have had signs stating death to the USA? Now all of these scenes, how many by the USA? Muslims understand only one thing. They laugh at foolish negotiations. The last 1,000 years of history supports the above.

i don't want to trivialize what happened in NYC but they took down TWO buildings killed thousands of innocent people, we then leveled the better part of two COUNTRIES and tens of thousands of innocent people, how many times have US troops been caught doing their fair share of, we'll call it bad PR, in just the last 250 years

the city will deny them the same way they denied the church, funny someone from texas would have notes on the whole process, this petition is just a cover for racism, plain and simple, Bloomberg said that ANYONE is more than welcome to go through the proper channels to ask for federal aid......doesn't mean they qualify

 

[Darky]

i don't want to trivialize what happened in NYC but they took down TWO buildings killed thousands of innocent people, we then leveled the better part of two COUNTRIES and tens of thousands of innocent people, how many times have US troops been caught doing their fair share of, we'll call it bad PR, in just the last 250 years

the city will deny them the same way they denied the church, funny someone from texas would have notes on the whole process, this petition is just a cover for racism, plain and simple, Bloomberg said that ANYONE is more than welcome to go through the proper channels to ask for federal aid......doesn't mean they qualify

"Bad PR" committed by US troops in just the last 250 yrs? Why not go longer? Oh yeah, because US troops haven't been around for even 250 yrs yet.

Also, this country was not founded on religious freedom. It was founded on freedom, period. That plus a small thing called equal representation. The pilgrims may have come for religious freedom, but they were fine being a British colony.

And lastly, you can't be racist against a religion. It's just not possible. Try using the word bigotry, i think you'll find it a better fit for what you're trying to say.

 

[H8PVMT]

I meant racism, against people from and of middle eastern decent, we all know not all chinese people are good at math so why are all muslims terrorists?

I was rounding up from 236

you could always borrow someone elses fingers and toes and count how many people have died because of catholics

 

[Darky]

Muslim isn't a race. Not all Middle Eastern people are Arabs, not all Arabs are Muslims. And America isn't a Catholic country.

 

[H8PVMT]

Not all Middle Eastern people are Arabs, not all Arabs are Muslims

this is why I'm against the petition and not all muslims are terrorists, but this guy lumps them all into one category because of where they are from, but doing it by playing on uninformed peoples emotions

 

[Tom R.]

I meant racism...

Racism is a misnomer; we all belong to the human race. Try coming up with an excuse that is not so intellectually bankrupt.

 

[ocean_jet]

Racism is a misnomer; we all belong to the human race.

Yes, "racism" isn't correct in the context of Islam... since Islam isn't a race...


...but, are you implying there is no such thing as racism, since we all belong to a single "human race"?

 

[Darky]

this is why I'm against the petition and not all muslims are terrorists, but this guy lumps them all into one category because of where they are from, but doing it by playing on uninformed peoples emotions

No he does it by lumping all Muslims into the extremist category. The Koran does have info and commands on killing those who won't convert, but not all are into waging the lesser Jihad. Those who are, are definitely a threat. And again, being a Muslim isn't a race. It's not about where you're from. Like I said not all Arabs are Muslims, and by the same token, not all Muslims are Arabs. Many are African; more Muslims are Indonesian than any other ethnicity.

Also, you miss the point of the petition: stop federal funds from going into a religious building. No matter your feelings on the wording, surely you can understand the reason why the gov't shouldn't pay to build a place of worship for any religion.

 

[Darky]

Yes, "racism" isn't correct in the context of Islam... since Islam isn't a race...


...but, are you implying there is no such thing as racism, since we all belong to a single "human race"?

He, like many who feel themselves "enlightened", apparently believes that all people are exactly the same and therefore any complaints about being different or being treated different are just plain foolish. I would love for racism to be dead, but it will always live on in some form simply because we are, indeed, all different. I think he's playing word games, don't say race, say ethnicity. But each race/ethnicity does have differences related to where they are from, what they look like, culture, etc.

 

[H8PVMT]

No he does it by lumping all Muslims into the extremist category. The Koran does have info and commands on killing those who won't convert, but not all are into waging the lesser Jihad. Those who are, are definitely a threat. And again, being a Muslim isn't a race. It's not about where you're from. Like I said not all Arabs are Muslims, and by the same token, not all Muslims are Arabs. Many are African; more Muslims are Indonesian than any other ethnicity.

Also, you miss the point of the petition: stop federal funds from going into a religious building. No matter your feelings on the wording, surely you can understand the reason why the gov't shouldn't pay to build a place of worship for any religion.

they won't get the funding, no religious sect has ever gotten any as long as I can remember. There is no need for a petition, only to further the hatred

I won't believe racism doesn't exist until Ann Coulter tells me so

 

[TJ Rat]

No, I am not 'enlightened', and no, I do not lump all muslims into the terrorist catagory.

Funny how someone from Texas has all these notes about NYC? No, it is an American concerned about America. Maybe our forefathers should have ignored Pearl Harbor or Concord Bridge? Afterall they happened in other areas.

H8TPVMT, I agree with your Volkswagen analogy. Look in my driveway, there is a Ford from Kansas (profits go to Dearborn) and two Jeeps (profits go to or at least went to Toledo, Auburn Hills...). No European or Japanese cars, but that is another subject.
I am not paranoid, but please review history a little bit. Bury your head in the sand and bad things happen. A good example is a little thing called WWII. The Nazi war machine bit off a little more than they can chew. See any similarities to what is happening today with Islam?
Trivialize what happened on US soil. Here is some food for thought...Last week I was talking to my son, he is an Officer in the US Navy, currently stationed in Sasebo, Japan. That is the port for Nagasaki, where the second atomic bomb was dropped. He said he was flabbergasted at the Nagasaki war museum. The tour guide stated Japan attacked the US on December 7, 1941. Then she said, "After that, the Americans taught Japan a lesson". Strange how we do not hear things like that here.

Maybe my train of thought is 'archaic' but the muslims, err... islam sure seem to understand Hamurabi when he stated , 'an eye for an eye'. They do not believe in peaceful negotiation. Please give me an example of any type of armed attack thwarted by peaceful negotiations with members of islam. Yes, I know that not all who follow islam are terrorists. But, it seems all the terrorists follow islam. Any connection?

Atrocities committed in war? Yes, I know they happen on both sides. I believe when atrocities are comitted against prisoners, it makes the warriors fight harder. Not saying mistreatment is right, just making an observation.

 

[Boatwrench]

But, it seems all the terrorists follow islam. Any connection?

Really? The IRA are islamist?

 

[Boatwrench]

they won't get the funding, no religious sect has ever gotten any as long as I can remember.

Jim Jones and The People's Temple ring a bell?

 

[TJ Rat]

Really? The IRA are islamist?

You got me on that one. The IRA was really hot and heavy when I was in the service.

 

[Boatwrench]

There was a FOUO phamplet published by the DOS prior to 9/11 that listed terrorist and potential terrorist groups. I used to give the duck scrubbers & flipper petters in the USCG a hard time because Sea Sheperds and Green Peace were on the list.

 

[Boatwrench]

Whether it's a church, synagogue, temple, mosque, or even a Zen rock garden - if there is any religious involvement, it should not receive public funding (I'm not especially happy about churches being tax-exempt organisations, either. While all churches are theoretically tax-exempt, it still amounts to an endorsement of oragnised religion in general. Makes me want to start up the "Church of NO MA'AM" so I can get rid of paying taxes for booze - "Sacramental Rum," you could say.)

That's it. I don't care what sort of holy space, I don't care what religion it's for - if it's religious, it don't get public dollars. It can build with its own.

Yes, even if it's a "community centre" with a church in it.

No "derp" to it, to me.

Jon,

I disagree with the sentiments you state in your post. If the structure has historical importance it should recieve government funding for preservation. California missions are a perfect example, and Remember the Alamo.

 

[5-90]

Jon,

I disagree with the sentiments you state in your post. If the structure has historical importance it should recieve government funding for preservation. California missions are a perfect example, and Remember the Alamo.

But, does a new construction have genuine "historical importance?" Most of the structures you're talking about (CA missions, Alamo, et al) are buildings that are historically significant in se, or have had historical events take place there.

In either case, they are not "new construction."

I don't see how new construction is "historically significant," unless it is a direct restoration of a destroyed/demolished/deteriorated structure itself of historical significance.

In this case, I do not see how the new construction has "historical significance" to justify public funding being applied. It has no history - it is new.

As far as memorials go, I can see a fully sectarian (is that the right word?) monument or memorial being built, with no religious overtones whatever. There are various monuments in DC that are like this - the Vietnam Wall, the Iwo Jima statue, the "Grasping Hand" statue, and the like.

If this were prior construction where a historical event had taken place, I'd have no trouble with it. If this were new construction with no religious overtones or significance, fine.

But, I can't make the logical leap to publicly fund new construction of any sort of "memorial" that includes a house of worship - of whatever sort. If a Church wants to build a "branch office," then the Church can fund it.

Similarly, I have a problem when a business is given any sort of preferential treatment (tax breaks, government loans/grants, & the like) to fund new construction.) Make sense?

 

[Darky]

No, I am not 'enlightened', and no, I do not lump all muslims into the terrorist catagory.

Funny how someone from Texas has all these notes about NYC? No, it is an American concerned about America. Maybe our forefathers should have ignored Pearl Harbor or Concord Bridge? Afterall they happened in other areas.

H8TPVMT, I agree with your Volkswagen analogy. Look in my driveway, there is a Ford from Kansas (profits go to Dearborn) and two Jeeps (profits go to or at least went to Toledo, Auburn Hills...). No European or Japanese cars, but that is another subject.
I am not paranoid, but please review history a little bit. Bury your head in the sand and bad things happen. A good example is a little thing called WWII. The Nazi war machine bit off a little more than they can chew. See any similarities to what is happening today with Islam?
Trivialize what happened on US soil. Here is some food for thought...Last week I was talking to my son, he is an Officer in the US Navy, currently stationed in Sasebo, Japan. That is the port for Nagasaki, where the second atomic bomb was dropped. He said he was flabbergasted at the Nagasaki war museum. The tour guide stated Japan attacked the US on December 7, 1941. Then she said, "After that, the Americans taught Japan a lesson". Strange how we do not hear things like that here.

Maybe my train of thought is 'archaic' but the muslims, err... islam sure seem to understand Hamurabi when he stated , 'an eye for an eye'. They do not believe in peaceful negotiation. Please give me an example of any type of armed attack thwarted by peaceful negotiations with members of islam. Yes, I know that not all who follow islam are terrorists. But, it seems all the terrorists follow islam. Any connection?

Atrocities committed in war? Yes, I know they happen on both sides. I believe when atrocities are comitted against prisoners, it makes the warriors fight harder. Not saying mistreatment is right, just making an observation.

Don't worry I wasn't calling you enlightened. You made no mention of racism being impossible since we're all part of the human race.

 

[Boatwrench]

But, does a new construction have genuine "historical importance?"

NO new construction does not. I read your OP as a blanket don't give public money for any reason and was just pointing out an exception.

Make sense?

 

[5-90]

I slipped - it happens.

Looks like we're more or less on the same page now.

FWIW, I could approve of a non-denominational religious memorial, acknowledging the existence/intervention/effect of Divine Will - just not one that follows a particular religious tradition above another, when paid for with public monies.

As soon as it starts to follow a particular tradition over another, then that tradition can fund it themselves (churches seem to have enough money of their own - they don't need ours. Besides, if a church is tax-exempt, they get to keep all of their money to use as they will, vice the bite that is constantly foisted upon us...)