let this be THE peguot to AX-15 swap thread

[5-90]

"Clutch Kit" = Clutch disc, pressure plate, T/O bearing (or internal slave,) and pilot bearing/bushing all in one box. Last time I had to deal with a failed internal slave (yech!) it was $100 for the slave or $140 for the clutch kit. I just sprung for the kit - even though I didn't need it, I was already there (and I felt better when I was done.)

There isn't an "overhaul kit" for that asinie internal slave cylinder (concentric slave cylinder, or whatever they're calling the wretched thing this week...) so the only service is replacement. The master cylinder may be overhauled, as you've already found out.

You've heard of "approach angle" and "departure angle," right?

Approach angle is the angle of terrain (measured from a horizontal ground line,) with the specification being the angle where the front bumper will hit the ground before you can start your tyres up it.

Departure angle is the same thing, only turned around. It's the angle at which the rear bumper will hang up before the rear wheels will engage the ground line.

"Breakover angle" is related to high-centering. Taken theoretically, the "breakover angle" is the angle between sides of a point at which the vehicle will lose contact between one end or the other and the ground, once it crests the peak.

The first image illustrates the approach and departure angle limitations, while the second will show the breakover angle limitation. Try to transit an angle greater than breakover (or an obstacle - it need not be an angular problem, just apply some trigonometry to see the headache...)

Using trig to figure the approach and departure angles is easy - for the breakover angle, you'll need to measure the lowest point of the underbody, and the longer of the two distances between that point and an axle. The "lowest point" is a dead vertical measurment, while the "longer distance to the axle" is a dead horizontal. You get a right triangle from those two figures (the legs - the hypotenuse is not needed for this one,) and you can then figure the angle using the Sine ratio.

Why the longer of the two along the ground line? Because that's going to give you the shallower angle (a "quick and dirty" method is to simply measure the actual wheelbase - from the axis of revolution of one axle to the other - and then measure the height of the frame rail at the midpoint of that line. You'll probably have points that are lower, but I told you it was "quick and dirty...")

 

[monkeyhouse]

"Clutch Kit" = Clutch disc, pressure plate, T/O bearing (or internal slave,) and pilot bearing/bushing all in one box. Last time I had to deal with a failed internal slave (yech!) it was $100 for the slave or $140 for the clutch kit. I just sprung for the kit - even though I didn't need it, I was already there (and I felt better when I was done.)

There isn't an "overhaul kit" for that asinie internal slave cylinder (concentric slave cylinder, or whatever they're calling the wretched thing this week...) so the only service is replacement. The master cylinder may be overhauled, as you've already found out.

You've heard of "approach angle" and "departure angle," right?

Approach angle is the angle of terrain (measured from a horizontal ground line,) with the specification being the angle where the front bumper will hit the ground before you can start your tyres up it.

Departure angle is the same thing, only turned around. It's the angle at which the rear bumper will hang up before the rear wheels will engage the ground line.

"Breakover angle" is related to high-centering. Taken theoretically, the "breakover angle" is the angle between sides of a point at which the vehicle will lose contact between one end or the other and the ground, once it crests the peak.

The first image illustrates the approach and departure angle limitations, while the second will show the breakover angle limitation. Try to transit an angle greater than breakover (or an obstacle - it need not be an angular problem, just apply some trigonometry to see the headache...)

Using trig to figure the approach and departure angles is easy - for the breakover angle, you'll need to measure the lowest point of the underbody, and the longer of the two distances between that point and an axle. The "lowest point" is a dead vertical measurment, while the "longer distance to the axle" is a dead horizontal. You get a right triangle from those two figures (the legs - the hypotenuse is not needed for this one,) and you can then figure the angle using the Sine ratio.

Why the longer of the two along the ground line? Because that's going to give you the shallower angle (a "quick and dirty" method is to simply measure the actual wheelbase - from the axis of revolution of one axle to the other - and then measure the height of the frame rail at the midpoint of that line. You'll probably have points that are lower, but I told you it was "quick and dirty...")

Good info! Thanks! And I get to use my trig skills again! Ya know I was a math guru in school, algebra to trig to calculus were my fav classes, so cool to be able to use trig workin on a jeep, lol.

Thanks again.

 

[talentjeep]

just wanted to bump this thread and say thank you to all the people who contributed. it was ultimately this thread that made the difference in giving me what i needed to know in order to complete my swap.

i have never been happier with a transmission.

my one improvisation for the swap. if your clutch line becomes damaged (like mine did) because it's plastic and melts when it contacts the exhaust manifold you can still extract the brass ends and have a new line made at a hydraulics shop. mine is doing great.

thanks !


p.s.

This is another source for clutch lines/connecting ends and I hadn't seen it in this thread before.

Advance Adapters, 60" braided stainless line, comes with one flared fitting adapter to attach to the slave:

http://advanceadapters.com/product/2353/(P/N-716130H)-Stainless-Hose-42"-(-3-style-fitting).html

Get an additional adapter for the master cylinder end:

http://advanceadapters.com/product/...er-Cylinder-Fitting-for-Jeep-TJ-Wrangler.html

Neither part comes with new o-rings, you'll have to source them locally.

Just ordered these for my MJ, should be here tomorrow. I'll post pics of install (probably this weekend).

Jeff

edit: add $12 for shipping, my total was $105 and some change......

 

[monkeyhouse]

just wanted to bump this thread and say thank you to all the people who contributed. it was ultimately this thread that made the difference in giving me what i needed to know in order to complete my swap.

i have never been happier with a transmission.

my one improvisation for the swap. if your clutch line becomes damaged (like mine did) because it's plastic and melts when it contacts the exhaust manifold you can still extract the brass ends and have a new line made at a hydraulics shop. mine is doing great.

thanks !


p.s.

This is another source for clutch lines/connecting ends and I hadn't seen it in this thread before.

X2 on this thread being helpful. Thanks 5-90!

 

[xjsorbust]

hey awesome thread! have used thiis for tons of info!
has anyone ran into trouble of internal slave cylinder retaining pins not lining up? will not using the retaining dowel cause issue? thanks guys!

 

[87manche]

Been a while since I've sen this thread.

Re: the transmission hydraulic hose, NAPA has them. When mine popped it was about $30 for the prebent OEM style hose. This was 3 years ago or somesuch, I posted a thread and part numbres then.

 

[61scout80]

Just looking for some verification on my information. I got the Peugeot out, and I'm getting ready to put the ax15 in. 87 4.0.

I have swapped the input gear on the tcase to 23 spline
I need to tap the rearward cross member holes, is a 10mm x 1.5 tap correct?
the standard ax15 tranny mount will work? 2 bolts directly to the bottom of the tranny and the 4 bolts through the cross member? no plates between the mount/tranny/member like the ax5 has?
The input shaft of the AX15i and the BA5/10 are the same length and diameter, so I need not worry about the pilot bushing/bearing? (the clutch in there look very new, I plan to reuse it)

 

[redrider2911]

The back holes are already tapped from the factory, just need to be cleaned out or chased really. A tap is a good idea but I always tell my customers if they dont have one available they can just spray that guy down with some WD-40 and thread in a clean bolt carefully. Besides that I dont know too much about the swap. lol I did just modify my crossmember/skid for a customer still running that tranny though. Proved to be a little work.

 

[cal]

The back holes are already tapped from the factory, just need to be cleaned out or chased really. A tap is a good idea but I always tell my customers if they dont have one available they can just spray that guy down with some WD-40 and thread in a clean bolt carefully. Besides that I dont know too much about the swap. lol I did just modify my crossmember/skid for a customer still running that tranny though. Proved to be a little work.

I did this swap twice in the last year, and I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt the holes were *NOT* tapped on either rig.. 87 MJ, 87 XJ.

 

[TheNerd]

I did this swap twice in the last year, and I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt the holes were *NOT* tapped on either rig.. 87 MJ, 87 XJ.

They were on my '87.... that is weird that some are and some are not.......

 

[61scout80]

They were on my '87.... that is weird that some are and some are not.......

Mine are not tapped, they are smooooth as butter.

 

[5-90]

Just looking for some verification on my information. I got the Peugeot out, and I'm getting ready to put the ax15 in. 87 4.0.

I have swapped the input gear on the tcase to 23 spline
I need to tap the rearward cross member holes, is a 10mm x 1.5 tap correct?
the standard ax15 tranny mount will work? 2 bolts directly to the bottom of the tranny and the 4 bolts through the cross member? no plates between the mount/tranny/member like the ax5 has?
The input shaft of the AX15i and the BA5/10 are the same length and diameter, so I need not worry about the pilot bushing/bearing? (the clutch in there look very new, I plan to reuse it)

The holes for the crossmember have nutserts in them - but the rear ones are often rusted away (mine were.) I simply cut access ports in the side of the framerail, and use 3/8"-24 bolts and nuts (CRES) and fender washers to spread the load over the framerail. Problem solved

The standard AX-15 mount will work neatly.

The input shaft is the same spline (1.125"-10) and length (haven't measured,) but the pilot may be different. From what I've been able to determine so far, the "internal" AX-15 (AX-15i) uses the same size pilot as the Peugeot - that covers you up through 1993. 1994-up "external" AX-15 (AX-15e) has a larger pilot - about 3/4". You'll want the early 1970's CJ V8-304 three-speed manual pilot bushing for that application. The same clutch friction may be used in either case, that's no trouble

 

[talentjeep]

Just looking for some verification on my information. I got the Peugeot out, and I'm getting ready to put the ax15 in. 87 4.0.

I have swapped the input gear on the tcase to 23 spline
I need to tap the rearward cross member holes, is a 10mm x 1.5 tap correct?
the standard ax15 tranny mount will work? 2 bolts directly to the bottom of the tranny and the 4 bolts through the cross member? no plates between the mount/tranny/member like the ax5 has?
The input shaft of the AX15i and the BA5/10 are the same length and diameter, so I need not worry about the pilot bushing/bearing? (the clutch in there look very new, I plan to reuse it)

yes on 10x1.5.

i used this Mopar #53009180AB ('84 CJ something I don't remember) as my pilot bearing. sits in a different place on the Renix flywheel than the original but it works. I don't see why you would need to cut trans input shaft like i've seen in some threads. i had no such issues.

be as careful as possible to make sure you tap the holes straight or it's a pain to get the crossmember on. in the end i had to drill out the holes on it (the crossmember) a bit.

this is how mine worked out. was still tricky to get on but my only current problems are the tcase linkage.

 

[t-frady]

I can tell you how to fix thats and its really simple get all the linkage out and replace it with the one's out of the AX15 including the part on the body where it pivots at. if you can if not sorry I'm no help then 5-90 would prob know he helped me out. good luck

 

[Paintballpsyco2369]

I have read through as much of this thread as my head can handle right now, but I am still at a loss on a couple of things. Here is what I have, and I will follow it with what I think I have right for this swap.

First and foremost I want to mention I have no experience with transmissions. I opted to do this at the time as a friend helping me with the XJ build said it was a direct swap. Come to find out, not quite lol. I got the donor parts for one heck of a price so I still plan to go through with it.

I have a 1988 XJ with Ba-10 and 231 21spline t-case, actually still works beautifully but figured upgrade it while it is torn down. Presently complete mess (no floors, needs rockers, fenders off, rear axle out [should be back in this weekend] basically a total rebuild). The T-case is getting beefed up with planetary assembly, chain and sprockets, and SYE. Front axle already replaced with one from a 98 XJ so no vacuum disco and planning to remove the rest of that system in doing the swap (mot gone already). Rear axle is now a Ford 8.8 so will deal with driveshaft lengthen/shortening when I get the swap done. Presently have a front DS from a ZJ for it so...

Donor parts are from a 1996 XJ and include, fly wheel, clutch plate, pressure plate, the bearing with the rocker arm (not sure what that is called exactly) all associated bolts, inspection/cover plate, external slave cylinder, Ax-15 transmission (with bell housing) and shifter, factory mated NP-231 with shifter and linkage.

Of what I believe I have right in reading through this thread:
I can still use from donor
- The clutch plate, pressure plate and rocker arm
- Associated bolts
- Obviously the trans, and the t-case
- Linkage and shifters
- Inspection/cover plate
- Slave cylinder

Here is where I get a bit lost.
It seems that I should have gotten the trans crossmember, master cylinder and clutch line from the donor rig. That is no longer an option as the PO scrapped it so... One thing I read a couple of times is that the Ba-10 x-member is a bit beefier than the ax-15 one. I know I will have to re-do the mounting holes which is fine as I want to put some extra steel in the rails to strengthen the mounting points anyways.

Can I use the ba-10 x-member with the ax-15, and if so, can I use the same mount, or will I need a new one?

As far as the pilot bushing goes, with the parts I have, what can I use to get the rig up and running and what will I need to buy still?

I like the idea of just extending the clutch line, or replacing it somehow (noticed it was mentioned as being one piece). That I am sure I can get done.

I also read about plugs needing to be adapted, any more info on this? The vacuum crap is going away and I know I need to use the mechanical drive stuff from the older 231 speedometer on the SYE, also not an issue but what about the other stuff?

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide, I greatly appreciate it. I look forward to any responses.

Paint

 

[5-90]

Quick, since I'm on the way out the door...

- You can use the same crossmember. I don't recall if you have to swap it end-for-end, but the one on the recipient vehicle will work.

- You will have to change the mount cushion - but the BA-10 runs $150 or so, the AX-15 can be had for $25-30. Nice.

- You can use the same clutch friction setup. If you're using an AX-15i (1988.5-1993,) you can use the whole BA-10 clutch kit - if you're using the AX-15e (1994-1999,) you'll need to change the T/O bearing and pilot bushing.

- I tend to replace screws and such out of hand - the upper bell screws should be 3/8"-16x1-3/4", the lower ones are somewhere around 7/16"-14x2" or so. I'm sure about the thread pitches, just not the lengths. I studded the upper two screws - made it easier to line things up (3/8"-16x2-1/2" for those, as I recall.)

- You'll have to reterminate the wiring for the reverse lamp switch - but that's easy. Just get a pigtailed Delphi Weatherpack two-pole connector that mates with the switch, cut the stupid little two-pin off, and crimp on the Weatherpack (polarity not important.)

I'll check in later and see what else I can clear up, if no-one else gets to it first.

 

[5-90]

Now that I'm back, let me tackle this a bit more thoroly...

I have a 1988 XJ with Ba-10 and 231 21spline t-case, actually still works beautifully but figured upgrade it while it is torn down. Presently complete mess (no floors, needs rockers, fenders off, rear axle out [should be back in this weekend] basically a total rebuild). The T-case is getting beefed up with planetary assembly, chain and sprockets, and SYE. Front axle already replaced with one from a 98 XJ so no vacuum disco and planning to remove the rest of that system in doing the swap (mot gone already). Rear axle is now a Ford 8.8 so will deal with driveshaft lengthen/shortening when I get the swap done. Presently have a front DS from a ZJ for it so...

Donor parts are from a 1996 XJ and include, fly wheel, clutch plate, pressure plate, the bearing with the rocker arm (not sure what that is called exactly) all associated bolts, inspection/cover plate, external slave cylinder, Ax-15 transmission (with bell housing) and shifter, factory mated NP-231 with shifter and linkage.

Don't use the flywheel - the CKP trigger notches for OBD won't work with the RENIX CKP, and the RENIX trigger notches (contrariwise) won't work with the OBD CKP. However, the clutch screw patterns and friction surfaces are identical, so that causes no trouble.

Of what I believe I have right in reading through this thread:
I can still use from donor

- The clutch plate, pressure plate and rocker arm YES
- Associated bolts YES, but I usually replace these anyhow. See previous post.
- Obviously the trans, and the t-case Can we just agree "Duh!" on this one? :laugh:
- Linkage and shifters You'll have to extend the hole in the transmission tunnel straight back about two inches to clear the "even" gears on the AX-15, but that's easy.
- Inspection/cover plate Yep.
- Slave cylinder You'll be doing a hydraulic swap - so just get all new. Get them as aftermarket separate parts if you can - I've never been one to trust "factory assemblies" when there are multiple points of potential failure...

Here is where I get a bit lost.
It seems that I should have gotten the trans crossmember, master cylinder and clutch line from the donor rig. That is no longer an option as the PO scrapped it so... One thing I read a couple of times is that the Ba-10 x-member is a bit beefier than the ax-15 one. I know I will have to re-do the mounting holes which is fine as I want to put some extra steel in the rails to strengthen the mounting points anyways.

As I said earlier, there's no need. You should be able to use the 1988 X-member with the AX-15, just with the AX-15 mount (which is cheaper than the Peugeot mount anyhow - significantly so! Even the "performance poly" mounts are much cheaper than the Peugeot...) You shouldn't even need to re-drill anything - I didn't. From what I can see WRT the AX-15i and AX-15e, the outer dims are identical anyhow (including mount and shift tower locations.) I've compared the AX-15i (early) crossmember to that for the BA-10 and the AW4 - they're identical. But, you can beef them up if you want.

Can I use the ba-10 x-member with the ax-15, and if so, can I use the same mount, or will I need a new one?

The cross-member should work, just get the proper mount cushion. Nuts are M8-1.25 for the mount studs, if you need them. I think the screws are M10-1.5x25m/m or M12-1.75x25m/m, but I'm not sure.

As far as the pilot bushing goes, with the parts I have, what can I use to get the rig up and running and what will I need to buy still?

The AX-15e pilot is significantly larger than the BA-10 or AX-15i, so you need to replace the pilot bushing/bearing. You'll have to go "off-list" to make it work, the part you want is an early 1970's CJ with AMC304 and three-speed manual, then it's a drop-in.

I like the idea of just extending the clutch line, or replacing it somehow (noticed it was mentioned as being one piece). That I am sure I can get done.

Note earlier comments. Strongly consider aftermarket parts, instead of the OEM assembly. It's cheaper to repair later...

I also read about plugs needing to be adapted, any more info on this? The vacuum crap is going away and I know I need to use the mechanical drive stuff from the older 231 speedometer on the SYE, also not an issue but what about the other stuff?

The reverse lamps are the only real other issue you have - and I've covered that in the previous post (easy fix using off-the-shelf parts.)

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide, I greatly appreciate it. I look forward to any responses.

Paint

We're all here to help!

Just curious - woodsball or speedball, and how long? I'm an old-line woodsballer myself, and some MILSIM airsoft (keeping old reflexes alive...)

 

[Paintballpsyco2369]

We're all here to help!

Just curious - woodsball or speedball, and how long? I'm an old-line woodsballer myself, and some MILSIM airsoft (keeping old reflexes alive...)

Figured I would save a proper response for when I am more awake, I did not realize how long that was when I wrote it last night lol.

I want to thank you though so much for your response with this at the least now and comment on your above quote...

I used to play all the time in High School, did a lot of both actually at a local field. Love every second of it but slightly preferred speedball when the right people were there. Woods was awesome though too as the place had a bunch of bunkers and stuff there... I miss it a lot and it has been some time since I have played. I went to go to the field one day to get their new hours and rates only to find the place had been closed for awhile. Was really sad to find that out.

Biggest issues was always lack of funding. Up until Late August I had a job getting a ton of hours and was saving up to start again. Got my gun out and charged up getting ready to go and all, called up all the guys I used to play with (had managed to find another local place) and was trying to get something setup. Long story short, got a call from the new manager at my store telling me " we're letting you go"... Needless to say, gun went back in the closet for now...

I really have been wanting to play though really bad lately. Got a ton of money sunk into the gun and gear and it has been sitting for far too long than I care to admit lol. One day soon hopefully. Maybe get back into it next summer or something, getting to desperate now lol...

Anyways, thanks again for the help, I did have a couple other things but I will respond with those tomorrow when I can think straighter lol.

Paint

 

[5-90]

When I do go out, I still use my old VM-68 - it's usually older than most of the kids I'm playing with... Slightly modified VM-68 Magnum w/BOA Concealer barrel and a LASER dot set for thirty yards. Does rather well with a decent paint fit to the barrel!

Let us know if you have any other questions - You'd be amazed how many people here have done this swap (including me,) and this is usually where I end up pointing people from other boards looking for information (I'm on several different Jeep boards - but has been "first and longest" for me. As evidenced by my post counts all over...)

 

[Paintballpsyco2369]

When I do go out, I still use my old VM-68 - it's usually older than most of the kids I'm playing with... Slightly modified VM-68 Magnum w/BOA Concealer barrel and a LASER dot set for thirty yards. Does rather well with a decent paint fit to the barrel!

Let us know if you have any other questions - You'd be amazed how many people here have done this swap (including me,) and this is usually where I end up pointing people from other boards looking for information (I'm on several different Jeep boards - but has been "first and longest" for me. As evidenced by my post counts all over...)

That gun if I am remembering the right one, is a pretty sweet gun. Mine is an Angel IR3 with a Angel 4 circuit board (with the cops 2 sensor) Ir4 grip from and intake regulator, 14" infinity barrel, soft face bolt, titanium hammer and a couple other upgrades I can't remember off the top of my head lol, also running a HPA tank (3,000psi, 68ci) and a Halo B hopper with a victory board running at 35 bps, one heck of a sweet setup, extremely accurate and air efficient with the "chamber" upgrades. I really miss shooting that thing lol. Last time I played everyone else's guns were all new and stuff but mine was quieter, lasted longer per tank and shoot a heck of a lot better than anyone else's there lol. Truly miss playing...

I realized after reading your post count, you have been around for quite some time lol. This is my second off road forum and have been into this stuff for just over a year or so now... Loving every second of it though (except having to checkout when shopping for stuff lol). I have been directed here for more Jeep specific stuff than anywhere else actually. Kind of obvious why though lol. I am glad to be doing it though, the swap I mean. Gives me a much better driveline to handle all the other upgrades. As good as my current BA-10 is right now, I am fairly sure it wouldn't last too long when I finish up the project. Plus I can probably get a bit of money for it in getting rid of it... We shall see when the time comes for it lol. Anyways, I will get to that post of yours in a few minutes here, ebay keeps emailing me about leaving some feedback so I want to get that done and out of the way lol.

Paint