Klune-V gear reduction unit/dual t-cases--is there a need???

[Big Red]

I know this probably belongs in the modified section, but I was just wondering how many of you guys were thinking of getting a klune v reduction unit for you xj's behind the 231/242/atlas etc.? Do you guys think it over kill? I think it would be great for the rock crawling trails we have here in California, but I know it is pricey. Do most people if they do anything with their t-cases probably do it in this order of expense, etc: 1st do a 4:1 kit in their 231, get an atlas 4.3:1 t-case, go with a klune-v reduction unit behind their 231 or atlas. I loved Jeeps, but have been envious of the Toyota camp and their ability to fairly cheaply run Marlin dual t-cases and be able to creepy crawl just about any obstacle. Do you think that a combination of lower gears, 231 4:1 t-cases and heavier use of the brakes is adequate enough to not feel the need to go with a gear reduction/dual t-case?

 

[Jes]

Two words.
Seat time.

 

[Big Red]

Two words.
Seat time.

What do you mean? You don't need that fancy reduction unit to wheel the hard stuff. That the auto with decent gears and strategic use of the brake will do it???
Troy

 

[Phil]

Stop worrying about it so much until after you've seen what the rock trails are really like, he means.

You've got a winch hanging off the front, so it's not like you're going to get stuck because your crawl is too high.

 

[Gary E]

Two words.
Seat time.

:roflmao:

As much as everybody thinks it would be super cool to start out with a jeep on 38s with dana 60s, there is no replacement for starting out with a mild lift and 31s and learning how to drive, and really its just as fun

There are plenty of guys out there on 33s that will make lots of guys with 38s look silly. Andy Couch and Jes come to mind.

My first time through fordyce I had a lunchbox locker in my dana 35 with a 3 inch lift, 31s and stock gears. I needed a strap three times, pretty light tugs.

Its still a tough and pretty trail now on 35s with dual lockers though.

 

[Big Red]

:roflmao:

As much as everybody thinks it would be super cool to start out with a jeep on 38s with dana 60s, there is no replacement for starting out with a mild lift and 31s and learning how to drive, and really its just as fun

There are plenty of guys out there on 33s that will make lots of guys with 38s look silly. Andy Couch and Jes come to mind.

My first time through fordyce I had a lunchbox locker in my dana 35 with a 3 inch lift, 31s and stock gears. I needed a strap three times, pretty light tugs.

Its still a tough and pretty trail now on 35s with dual lockers though.

Yeah, I've had a 89 xj on 3" lift and 31 at's and this was my dd after my 91' wrangler engine hydro-locked while I was wheeling at the Badlands in Indiana. I went to Prairie City just to mess around and I like how the extra wheelbase felt and what I was able to do with it. I have since been trying to sell my 94' wrangler with 10" lift 4.3L chevy vortec, 4.88 etc etc. I have no plans in the near future to go with a klune-v, but I think that dual t-cases have alot of use for rock crawling trails years down the road when you've done everything else, this is also the time that people go with coil overs, full width 1 ton axles etc. It's the progressional of things I guess if you haven't spent all your money and are not that far in debt and your wife, house, etc is still there. :laugh:
Troy

 

[CRASH]

Klunes don't go "behind your 231/241/Atlas", they go between your transmission and your T-case.

An ideal overall crawl ratio for a 4.0 Jeep on 35's is about 90 to 1 with a manual, and 70 to 1 with an auto. Add 20 points for every two inches for every 2 inches of tire size.

Toyota's need much more crawl because of there drastically underpowered engines.

CRASH

 

[Big Red]

Klunes don't go "behind your 231/241/Atlas", they go between your transmission and your T-case.

An ideal overall crawl ratio for a 4.0 Jeep on 35's is about 90 to 1 with a manual, and 70 to 1 with an auto. Add 20 points for every two inches for every 2 inches of tire size.

Toyota's need much more crawl because of there drastically underpowered engines.

CRASH

I know that Toyota 4runner/pickups motors don't put out a lot of hp and they are sort of ugly anyways. I just read this guys got dual t-cases with 5.29 gears, yata yata. I think the mod to seperate the 1-2 position on the aw4 auto would be good as well as being able to lock up the torque converter. Do you know when the aw4 wants to shift from 1-2 in the position, what rpm usually? I just know that when I'm wheeling that I'm using the brakes more than I want to with 4.56 gears and 35's. I don't want to sink a lot of $ into the 231 with a 4:1 kit, but I want more gear reduction than I have. What gears do you run Crash & Jes? Do you use your brakes alot decending down obstacles? Did you do the manual aw4 mod or anything else to get more engine braking? Do you have 4:1 gears in your t-cases? Just wondering.
Troy

 

[CRASH]

I have an NV4500 with a 6.3 to 1 first, an HD 231, and 4.88's. This puts me at 84 to 1. With the tired old motor, it was not enough for some of the Johnson Valley trails. It is more than enough for most everything in the Sierra's, though I'd like to go a bit slower in Little Sluice.

With the new stroker, the additional torque should help the motor not stall, which is my only problem in the very deep rocks.

CRASH

 

[Goatman]

I have no plans in the near future to go with a klune-v, but I think that dual t-cases have alot of use for rock crawling trails years down the road when you've done everything else, this is also the time that people go with coil overs, full width 1 ton axles etc. It's the progressional of things I guess if you haven't spent all your money and are not that far in debt and your wife, house, etc is still there. :laugh:
Troy

I know you're generalizing, but coilovers and full width axles are NOT in the normal progression of build ups. Coilovers are cool, and at this point, on an XJ, that is about all that can be said about them. Guys go with full width axles because it's easier than cutting them down (it's acutally easy, and allows you to correct the castor/pinion angle, but some are lazy or don't care) or cheaper than getting custom axles built........not because it works better. Just couldn't resist making this comment......

Klune V's are nice in the right situation. It allows you to have both a low t-case gear and the stock gears, if that's a situation that helps you, plus it would give you a super low range when both are in. This could be good if you had a stick. The Klune will add stress to your stock t-case, so that needs to be considered. I know someone who broke the 21 spline t-case input shaft with a Klune V, so he had to upgrade both to 23 spline. Your '89 has 21 splines. The low gears are nice if you have an auto, but not necessary. They are absolutely necessary for a stick.

 

[Big Red]

I know you're generalizing, but coilovers and full width axles are NOT in the normal progression of build ups. Coilovers are cool, and at this point, on an XJ, that is about all that can be said about them. Guys go with full width axles because it's easier than cutting them down (it's acutally easy, and allows you to correct the castor/pinion angle, but some are lazy or don't care) or cheaper than getting custom axles built........not because it works better. Just couldn't resist making this comment......

Klune V's are nice in the right situation. It allows you to have both a low t-case gear and the stock gears, if that's a situation that helps you, plus it would give you a super low range when both are in. This could be good if you had a stick. The Klune will add stress to your stock t-case, so that needs to be considered. I know someone who broke the 21 spline t-case input shaft with a Klune V, so he had to upgrade both to 23 spline. Your '89 has 21 splines. The low gears are nice if you have an auto, but not necessary. They are absolutely necessary for a stick.

I previously had a 91' yj with stock 3.07 gears & 33" pro comp mud terrains and had absolutely no power in 4th or 5th gear. I was wheeling at the Badlands in Indiana and got stuff in a mud/water hole and since my motor was still running and didn't stall out, I figured I'd leave it running. This was a bad idea as water got in my motor via the necked down airbox inlet by the front grill so I hydolocked my motor. I then really got into xj's when I bought a 89' as a dd. I added a 3" lift & 31" at's and it did o.k. as a dd, but then I found a real good deal on a 94' yj that a guy in Michigan built with 10" 4.3L 95' chevy vortec/4l60e tranny/ford 8.8/4.88 gears etc, but after wheeling my 89' xj out her at Prairie City, I really started to like the extra wheelbase and added stability, room, etc that the xj offered. I sold that 89' as it was on its last legs with the motor smoking and all and about 5 months ago bought my 91' 'xj with 8" lift & 35" mtrs. I've since added a dana 44 rear axle with 4.56 gears and a detroit locker & front dana 30 with 4.56 gears and a arb locker. I like having an auto off-roader and not having to worry about stalling out all the time, but I know I want more gearing and don't want to throw alot more into the 231 t-case. I'm thinking of doing the 1-2 gear & torque converter mod whereby I can lock out 1st gear in the 1-2 mode and also lock out the torque converter. I think this should help a little and I wouldn't have to use my brakes as much. I just think the Klune-V is awesome and gives you so many options as to what gears you have and what terrain/instances you want/can use them. It does come at a price though. Even an atlas 4.3 with 4.56 gears and the aw4 doesn't put you that close to what Crash says are ideal crawl ratios for an auto. It comes out to around 55:1 so a Klune-V with a slightly strengthened 231 and axles should work out good. With 4.56 gears and the stock aw4 and 231, you get final crawl gearing of 139:1. Which should be awesome with an automatic.
Troy

 

[CRASH]

Well, you have to know what you are going to do with your rig. 50 to 1 with an auto will be fine for trails like the 'Con. If you are going to run places like JV or Nevada and Arizona rocks, you'll definately want deeper.

You are going to want deeper axle gears eventually as well. 4.56 and 35's with an auto is right on the edge for driving a fully loaded XJ up and down the hill. 5.13's are about perfect for 35's.

If you ran 5.13's and a stock 231 with 35's, you'd be very happy 99% of the time.

You should know, I may have a different perspective of "ideal" gearing for an auto, as all my Jeeps and pickups have always been manual transmission equipped. The auto numbers I gave above come from talking to slush-box drivers around campfires in various venues. One word of caution, if you go over about 90 to 1 in an auto, you will have a very difficult time stopping the rig on the trail. The tranny will drive right over the stock brake setup, especially if you electronically lock the converter. You'll need to pull it out of drive to stop, essentially.

I would never put a Klune in front of a stock 231. I think to get the input shaft torque rating necessary to handle the power, you'll need to stuff 241 guts into it.

CRASH

 

[Big Red]

Well, you have to know what you are going to do with your rig. 50 to 1 with an auto will be fine for trails like the 'Con. If you are going to run places like JV or Nevada and Arizona rocks, you'll definately want deeper.

You are going to want deeper axle gears eventually as well. 4.56 and 35's with an auto is right on the edge for driving a fully loaded XJ up and down the hill. 5.13's are about perfect for 35's.

If you ran 5.13's and a stock 231 with 35's, you'd be very happy 99% of the time.

You should know, I may have a different perspective of "ideal" gearing for an auto, as all my Jeeps and pickups have always been manual transmission equipped. The auto numbers I gave above come from talking to slush-box drivers around campfires in various venues. One word of caution, if you go over about 90 to 1 in an auto, you will have a very difficult time stopping the rig on the trail. The tranny will drive right over the stock brake setup, especially if you electronically lock the converter. You'll need to pull it out of drive to stop, essentially.

I would never put a Klune in front of a stock 231. I think to get the input shaft torque rating necessary to handle the power, you'll need to stuff 241 guts into it.

CRASH

Good points, thanks for the info. I'm planning on keep my rev dana 30, so 4.56 gears are probably low enough for that axle. I have 4.88's in my wrangler with a ford 8.8, but I heard this is getting a bit low and might be giving up to much strength, plus 4.56 gears are very common and I was able to buy these axles already setup so it saved me alot of $$$ rather than having it done and buying the parts new. I know what you mean about maxing out your brakes with 4.56 gears and low range. I was having a pretty hard time stopping when the person in front of me decided to ride his brakes in his tj. I bled them pretty good after I put in the axles, but I will probably need to use neutral more to stop in low range if the decent is pretty steep and I'm going slow enough and want to make a complete stop. Is the 1-2 & torque converter mod a good idea in your opinion? I wonder if my rig will stay in 1st for up to 3K rpm or so before going into 2nd. Also I wonder how much more comp braking will be added by locking up the torque conv and lot allowing any slip?
Troy

 

[CRASH]

Originally posted by CRASH:

You should know, I may have a different perspective of "ideal" gearing for an auto, as all my Jeeps and pickups have always been manual transmission equipped.

I don't like, nor endorse the use of, transmissions that utilize fluid to couple power. I have no idea why a transmission would have a "1-2" position or why it would shift from "1" to "2" on its own accord. This seems silly on it's face, doesn't it? I suppose any more control you can impart on this silly feature would benefit you.

CRASH

 

[Big Red]

Originally posted by CRASH:



I don't like, nor endorse the use of, transmissions that utilize fluid to couple power. I have no idea why a transmission would have a "1-2" position or why it would shift from "1" to "2" on its own accord. This seems silly on it's face, doesn't it? I suppose any more control you can impart on this silly feature would benefit you.

CRASH

Yeah, I know. I wonder who's bright idea it was to make a "1-2" mode on the aw4, but there is a cheap mod to lock out 1st and the torque converter. Brett was even thinking of making a push button manual shifts for the aw4. He was going to make 4 push buttons that manually shift the auto aw4 if needed as well as have a toggle switch for torque converter lockup. I don't know if he has been able to work on this with his cross country drive and all.
Troy

 

[CRASH]

Yeah, I know. I wonder who's bright idea it was to make a "1-2" mode on the aw4, but there is a cheap mod to lock out 1st and the torque converter. Brett was even thinking of making a push button manual shifts for the aw4. He was going to make 4 push buttons that manually shift the auto aw4 if needed as well as have a toggle switch for torque converter lockup. I don't know if he has been able to work on this with his cross country drive and all.
Troy

He was at URF on Saturday, taking spy pics of the new rig and getting his front ARB set up, and he didn't mention it.

CRASH

 

[Big Red]

He was at URF on Saturday, taking spy pics of the new rig and getting his front ARB set up, and he didn't mention it.

CRASH

So is Brett's front dana 44 all geared up & locked? I know he wants to do some trails real soon. I'm planning on the Lost Coast trip this coming weekend with my wife in our stock 98' zj and then I'm going to be going on the rubicon run 6/17-20. Hopefully we can get a informal Fordyce trail run the 4th of July weekend or around that time. I'm picking your brain with this gearing stuff because I know you are more of let's say a "professional wheeler" :roflmao: and know what works and what doesn't.
What do you think of dual 241/231 cases in a mj/xj per this link?:
http://bc4x4.com/tech/bryce/tcase/tcase.cfm
Some real Canadian mods. :roflmao:
Troy

 

[CRASH]

Yeah, he's ready to run, just needs to plumb the ARB.

Professional wheeler? Puh-lease......my only credentials are breaking a lot of Jeep parts in the last 9 years.

As for URF, our work speaks for itself.......

CRASH

 

[Big Red]

Yeah, he's ready to run, just needs to plumb the ARB.

Professional wheeler? Puh-lease......my only credentials are breaking a lot of Jeep parts in the last 9 years.

As for URF, our work speaks for itself.......

CRASH

Where is URF located? I'd like to check it out sometime. I'm also working on mounting the arb comp, wiring, air line routing etc. Man that arb stuff is a pain to get in, even though I didn't install it in the housing. I think you did Andy. I bought Sean's dana 30. Sean's a real nice guy, we spend 5-1/2 hrs installing my rock sliders because my passenger side pinch seams were badly damaged and things we not lining up.

 

[CRASH]

Where is URF located? I'd like to check it out sometime. I'm also working on mounting the arb comp, wiring, air line routing etc. Man that arb stuff is a pain to get in, even though I didn't install it in the housing. I think you did Andy. I bought Sean's dana 30. Sean's a real nice guy, we spend 5-1/2 hrs installing my rock sliders because my passenger side pinch seams were badly damaged and things we not lining up.

Yeah, I did the install.

Sean mentioned you may need an ARB wiring harness? I have one that I'll sell you for half of the $80 retail price. It includes everything needed to wire two ARB's and a compressor, except the swithches and solenoids. New in box, $40.

URF is where you find it.

CRASH