Jeepspeed engineering

Zuul99 said:
if you guys have any questions about million dollar racing machines i will return the favor, Haha
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I have one, what's it like driving on flat ground? :confused1

don't get discouraged, desert guys are a rough bunch, it's part of the fun :D
 
not at all. I've driven a 9 second car down the 1/4 at fontana (at 10.20, lol) in a straight line, but I can't imagine pulling G's on a road course. Not to derail the thread or anything though, It was more a rhetorical question than sarcasm.

:cheers:
 
Many years ago I worked for a team that campaigned cars in IMSA (GT and Showroom Stock) and Pikes Peak. We were one of the factory backed Eagle Talon teams. Desert racing is very different than both of those. IMSA we were very concerned about weight and weight distribution. Cars were low, and very stiff. We had minimum weight requirements and through strategic use of lightweight materials we could remove weight in an undesirable location and put it back someplace that helped handling. Sometimes strength was given up to gain the weight advantage.

Pikes Peak was a little different. Still, low and not much suspension, and set up very much like the IMSA cars. We did a batch of 5 ZJ's - a 6 cyl/5sp, 2 5.2/auto, and 2 5.9/auto. This was back in 1993 so I guess I get to claim the honor of building the first "Niner" ZJ. As much of a thrill as it was to get to test one of the IMSA cars, NOTHING has ever come close to taking one of the Niners up the course as fast as I could. Again, very much concerned with weight over strength. They were lowered and set up stiff. Through the course of the week, these things made probably 2 dozen runs each up the hill and the only prep between runs was a visual check. One of the ZJ's was later given to a desert team to use for support in the Baja 1000 - they used it to pre-run and it lasted less than 100 miles.

Desert is very much more strength over weight. Obviously we do not add weight that isn't necessary, but these things take a pounding that is exponentially greater than road, rally, or anything like that. We do move things around to try to work with weight distribution and handling, but it isn't as important as with anything else.

You say you have downloaded rules...What do the LeMans Prototype rules have to do with our discussion here?

Here is a simple task - go to Youtube and search for desert racing parker, desert racing mint, and desert racing baja. You can find some awesome videos, including some in-car stuff. Watch that, then come back and ask more questions.
 
all in all WRC or FIA Engineering is the same as Desert Stuff (or should be). The parameters may change but the basics are still the same. To say the one racing disciple doesn't apply to another is ignorance.
 
Weasel said:
all in all WRC or FIA Engineering is the same as Desert Stuff (or should be). The parameters may change but the basics are still the same. To say the one racing disciple doesn't apply to another is ignorance.
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Having had personal experience in several disciplines, I can say that this is the most ignorant statement made in this thread. You have NO idea as to what you are talking about.
 
DieselSJ said:
Having had personal experience in several disciplines, I can say that this is the most ignorant statement made in this thread. You have NO idea as to what you are talking about.
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So how does Material analysis suddenly change between the two? Steel become less strong? Is there a special steel made just for F1 racing that desert racers can't use? You understand steel and it's relationship in strength, stiffness, heat treatments and you should be able to apply them to either disciple.

Or how does chassis analysis change? Do structural loads start moving in some other manner the basic stress analysis. If you under stand loads and how stress is transfered then you can design for either application.

Do shock fluids start flowing in a different manner then they would in any other applications? Are you saying the shock engineers at King can't design a shock for autocross racing or that Ohlin's could make one for desert racing? Do shims all of a sudden start deflection at different rates? Once you understand fluid flows, shim stiffness, orifice design, shaft velocities you can apply them to either or.

Or do roll center vs camber curves all of a sudden change and have a different meaning when going between the two? Sway bars add differently to total suspension rates, or roll center vs CG height's have different meaning off all sudden? Are spring rates some how magically determined in different manners between the two? Or that sprung/unsprung mass ratios don't effect desert trucks but do road cars? How about roll moments effect road cars in a different manner then it does with off-road trucks.

How about welding or machining. So there is a Tig welding method that different then Tig welding for offroad trucks? The steel somehow puddles and fuses in a different manner?

Where do you think all that fancy technology that desert trucks have came from? Like the profiling on axle shafts, shock valves, the creation of chromoly steel, heat treatment techniques, and the list goes on and on. F1 and aerospace. How does the same engineering that developed this technology and currently being used not apply between the two fields. Any engineer worth his salt should be able to take everything he knows from project A take it and apply it to project B. Sorry if the above comes off wrong, just trying to make my point.
 
Weasel said:
So how does Material analysis suddenly change between the two? Steel become less strong? Is there a special steel made just for F1 racing that desert racers can't use? You understand steel and it's relationship in strength, stiffness, heat treatments and you should be able to apply them to either disciple.

Or how does chassis analysis change? Do structural loads start moving in some other manner the basic stress analysis. If you under stand loads and how stress is transfered then you can design for either application.

Do shock fluids start flowing in a different manner then they would in any other applications? Are you saying the shock engineers at King can't design a shock for autocross racing or that Ohlin's could make one for desert racing? Do shims all of a sudden start deflection at different rates? Once you understand fluid flows, shim stiffness, orifice design, shaft velocities you can apply them to either or.

Or do roll center vs camber curves all of a sudden change and have a different meaning when going between the two? Sway bars add differently to total suspension rates, or roll center vs CG height's have different meaning off all sudden? Are spring rates some how magically determined in different manners between the two? Or that sprung/unsprung mass ratios don't effect desert trucks but do road cars? How about roll moments effect road cars in a different manner then it does with off-road trucks.

How about welding or machining. So there is a Tig welding method that different then Tig welding for offroad trucks? The steel somehow puddles and fuses in a different manner?

Where do you think all that fancy technology that desert trucks have came from? Like the profiling on axle shafts, shock valves, the creation of chromoly steel, heat treatment techniques, and the list goes on and on. F1 and aerospace. How does the same engineering that developed this technology and currently being used not apply between the two fields. Any engineer worth his salt should be able to take everything he knows from project A take it and apply it to project B. Sorry if the above comes off wrong, just trying to make my point.
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The basics apply as far as the technical aspects, but what Diesel SJ is referring to (as far as I can tell) is that the design aspects change. You can't take a vehicle chassis designed for F1 and just bolt on different suspension and expect it to live running F1, rally, desert, etc.
 
Darky said:
The basics apply as far as the technical aspects, but what Diesel SJ is referring to (as far as I can tell) is that the design aspects change. You can't take a vehicle chassis designed for F1 and just bolt on different suspension and expect it to live running F1, rally, desert, etc.
Click to expand...

Agree but way to many people I run across flat out do not believe any aspect or knowledge learned from other areas cannot be applied to off-road design. It's a shame this thought is so prevalent as alot of the basic design principles are chucked out the window and the wheel is reinvented. Redesign the wheel don't reinvent it. Just use the parameters that suit your environment.
 
Weasel said:
So how does ......
Click to expand...

No, you said the engineering was the same. They are not the same. Now you are getting closer in your next post where you talked about analysis and materials.

Darky got what I was saying.
 
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