I've lost my mind.. or an MP90 on a stroker

[Talyn]

I have seen a certain person do that (obstruct the port, in this case by nearly 50%) and the compressor basically fried...

Yeah, I don't see that as a good idea. I should be able to fully expose the discharge port to the manifold.

I got some work done today. I cut a hole in the manifold to get a better look what I am dealing with.

Doing the angle cut will interfere with the 3&4 cylinder's runners. I have a rough line drawn about where the cut will land. It also shows the structures for the runners. I will be reducing the runner to open it up more. I don't think that will be that great of an issue as the other SC manifolds as well as the pre 2000 manifolds had a great difference in the intake runner length as the log portion of the manifolds is part of the runner length.

This is the currently intended cut.

I am considering having a box welded on the underside to increase plenum volume since I will be taking so much away. Also, I will be putting 1/2" strips under where the bolts will land. I don't like the idea of running a bolt into 3/8" aluminum only. They strips will be held in by aluminum body panel adhesive or JB weld. I need to look up the technical specs of each to see what kind of heat they can hold up to. With the 1/2" strips and the 3/8" aluminum plate I may be able to use fredserts instead of tapping into the bare aluminum. http://www.fredsert.com/fred2/index.html. If I still don't have enough depth I may just bolt into the aluminum and at a later time, if necessary, use keenserts as suggested by o-gauge. I also haven't looked into the cost of fredserts, but I fear I may get sticker shock from the serts and tooling costs. The word "milspec" comes at a high cost.

On the vacuum ports the brake booster will get its own port as will the PCV line. For the three vacuum lines on the side of the manifold (emissions, and cruise, etc) I am thinking about doing a distribution block with a single large line coming off the back of the SC.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

IMO, dedicated taps are best for the vacuum lines. Boostec attempted to combine just a couple of the lines (with a "T") and the HVAC would shift to defrost (no vacuum) everytime the throttle was opened. It was for just this reason I added a port to the Sprintex inlet for the IAT sensor. The 98 had used up all of the ports available and the sensor still needed to be mounted.

That being said, what do you have to lose? Keep in mind that, for the most part, what you are going to have is venturi vacuum, not actual manifold vacuum.

My personal thoughts are to create as little interference with the PCM as is possible. So... I leave the MAP on the TB, mount the IAT under it in the compressor inlet and basically leave it alone as much as possible. The net effect has been that there have been very little issues with the F/IC installation.

Just a thought here, you may consider getting the manifold soda blasted to clean it prior to any welding. I should imagine there is a sand blaster in the area that can do the process as it is now the preferred method of paint removal for automotive restorations as it does not cause any heat to distort the sheet metal.

Another thought is that a stud in the aluminium will hold better than a bolt. So depending on the size of the hardware, this may or may not be an option for you.

 

[Talyn]

IMO, dedicated taps are best for the vacuum lines. Boostec attempted to combine just a couple of the lines (with a "T") and the HVAC would shift to defrost (no vacuum) everytime the throttle was opened. It was for just this reason I added a port to the Sprintex inlet for the IAT sensor. The 98 had used up all of the ports available and the sensor still needed to be mounted.

Real estate on the TB plate is going to be very scarce. My IAT is on my air box and will stay there unless it causes some issue. Vac ports: Brake, PCV, one large one or 3 smaller ones, and I can't forget the bypass valve port. So, thats 4 or 6 ports. There will also have to be a fitting for the meth/water nozzle. Maybe if the line to the vacuum log and log is large enough it won't effect the HVAC.

Just a thought here, you may consider getting the manifold soda blasted to clean it prior to any welding. I should imagine there is a sand blaster in the area that can do the process as it is now the preferred method of paint removal for automotive restorations as it does not cause any heat to distort the sheet metal.

Of course I will blast it prior to any welding. Right now it went through the sonic cleaner. I can't put it in the hot tank as the caustic will eat the aluminum. Most of that dirt just brushes off. There is some carbon that needs to be removed from the intake runners anyhow. After sand blasting I may bake it a bit to burn off any oils. I'm leaving the final cleaning and blasting until after the machine work is finished.

Another thought is that a stud in the aluminium will hold better than a bolt. So depending on the size of the hardware, this may or may not be an option for you.

Yes, studs are an option, provided there is room

 

[merdock69]

A vacuum 1-way check valve (my '99 has one stock) combined with the stock vacuum reservoir should be ample to prevent loss of vacuum at wot.

 

[Talyn]

A vacuum 1-way check valve (my '99 has one stock) combined with the stock vacuum reservoir should be ample to prevent loss of vacuum at wot.

That is what I was thinking. Perhaps his check valve got removed at some point

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Here's the thing. As the system vacuum is going to be generated at the compressor inlet via venturi, most likely the system will not drop vacuum at all.

Mine doesn't and the taps are located just under the TB. But then I extended the fittings a tad to get them into the air stream in order to better ther venturi response.

What I did was to braze in brass tubing. Not much and since the opening for the TB has been enlarged to 68mm (from 64mm), I replaced all of the fittings with stock ones as the shrouding of the fittings has been removed.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Looks great Talyn! Do you have the welding covered? If not, I may be able to help ya. Just let me know.

Bryson

 

[Talyn]

I don't have the welding covered yet. I has going to attempt to weld it myself, but I am still working on welding steel with TIG. I'm a bit far off for aluminum work and this has to be pretty good. I have a few local guys I am going to try to talk to, which I need to do before the major machine work on the manifold. If they fall through (which they may) I'll definitely get in touch with you.

I'm 90% sure I will be going with water/meth injection right off the bat. I have a feeling that with my compression ratio I might need it just to prevent ping and keep the timing up. I figure that I could do a safe tiune on the FIC first, then do a tune with the water/meth. Use the safe tune as map 2 and the w/m tune as map 1. Use the output from the washer fluid reservoir low fluid switch to tie into the FIC and switch between tunes.

I'll be removing my CPS modification as I don't want to dial back that much timing on the FIC. It adds 6* base.

I'm still working on the logistic of the power steering pump. I know that I can buy one from PSC, but I don't want to spend that much and I really don't need an upgraded pump. Autozone does offer a seal kit, so tapping it myself is a possibility. But if I take it apart its probably a good idea to rebuild it as well, which I haven't seen a kit for.

Hopefully soon I will have the adapter plates mocked up. Still need to order counter sunk bolts and see if TRD has inlet and outlet gaskets for this thing, or find material myself and cut them on the laser, or just use RTV.

 

[urban yan]

What about the local guy that modified my header? Is he able to weld aluminum?

 

[Talyn]

I already tried him. He is too busy with working on something for a mining company and he didn't seem too interested anyhow.

 

[Talyn]

Something I have been thinking about is using a push style solenoid instead of a vacuum actuator to control the bypass valve. When there is no power to the solenoid it will put the valve in the open position, bypassing boost. The FIC has a 12 volt output that can be configured based on TPS position, MAP load, RPM or any combination. Probably not necessary but I would be able to control when full boost comes on, but I don't think the bypass valve is large enough to bypass all the boost....

For the bypass valve I will probably need to move it to the passenger side. The Toyota setup uses an or kind of shaft after the supercharger to actuate the bypass valve. It currently on the drive side and may interfere with possibly the brake master cylinder and its lines. Magnuson could sell me the vacuum actuator, linkage, etc. They refused to sell me the bearings for the rod though. They wanted me to ship it to them and have them change the location. Shipping would have been high both ways for that. Then I remembered that most bearings had part numbers on them. Took a look and found them. So when I get to that stage I can remove and install them myself and just get what linkage is necessary.

 

[Talyn]

Small update

I modified the throttle cable bracket for a smaller foot print. Still a bit larger than I like.

Positioned over a scale print of the intake plate, top of the image is toward the hood:

Being that the SC will be positioned on the intake manifold at an angle I will also be rotating the throttle body and bracket at the same angle, maybe a bit more. Clearance with the valve cover will prevent further rotation.

I also got the hardware for mounting the SC to the various plates:

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Progress!

Looking good, can't wait until it is up and running. IMO, you are going to like the extra pull. Especially in the hills when getting to the trail heads. Or towing, if you tow...

You know, the other day I was getting the oil changed (the place I use is chock-a-block full of gear heads...) and the guys were asking if it was possible to break traction with my Heep. Told them that I doubted it as with the Detroit in the back, both of the P285s would have to let go. They asked me to try and so...

It sat there and happily chirped both tires causing the back end to hop as it lost traction.

Whose says SCs can't be fun?

In the interests of openness, the surface was concrete. Interstate, not floor smooth. Makes a difference.

As for the TB placement, it can go anywhere there is a place for it. Does not have to be bolted directly to the inlet of the compressor. As long as the cables can get to it, all is well. So, if it winds up on the passenger side of the engine, there is nothing wrong with that at all. Sprintex kept it where they did so as to be able to repurpose the stock air box. You are not limited by that requirement.

One of the Rovers I did the TB was relocated all the way to the front of the engine. Used a jackshaft driven compressor for that installation which put the compressor inlet up front instead of in the back (V8 installation). Stock, the D90 TB sits over the driver's side valve cover with the MAF on the firewall connected by this stupidly long glassfibre piping. I loathed the idea of having an intake track that made several 90 degree bends (just to connect to the stock plumbing) as that strangles the compressor inlet.

The idea is to have as little restriction to flow as is possible.

The less restrictions, the less parasitic heat is generated from the compressor having to overcome the restricions.

And heat is our enduring enemy...

And oil in the air stream. Which is why I recommend installing an oil separator into the PCV line. You will be amazed at how much crap gets caught.

 

[Talyn]

Looking good, can't wait until it is up and running. IMO, you are going to like the extra pull. Especially in the hills when getting to the trail heads. Or towing, if you tow...

Oh I already know I will. I love the stroker. I have to be careful on the highway as it takes nothing to move that needle. Even a minor boost PSI would make it even more fun.

As for the TB placement, it can go anywhere there is a place for it. Does not have to be bolted directly to the inlet of the compressor.

I know, but any where on the driver's side would not work as the cables would be too short. Cruise and TV cable cables are the limiting factor, especially the TV cable. The passenger side would work, but then I would have to have a tube made to go from there to the back of the compressor, which would have to be removed when I pull the valve cover off. Plus with all the crap I added over there its a tight fit and would probably restrict getting to the oil filter even more. Then I would either have to make an air box for the passenger side or run the intake hose to the passenger side. That would mean crossing the intake air over the engine twice. Plus I am going to try to use my current air box.

And oil in the air stream. Which is why I recommend installing an oil separator into the PCV line. You will be amazed at how much crap gets caught.

Got that covered. My ebay/home brew oil air separator works very well. The one I purchased on ebay was cheap and I knew it was nothing more than an open canister. I got some stainless steel wool and ran a pipe from the inlet down to about an inch off the bottom. Funny thing about the SS wool is that after looking at lowes, home depot, walmart, I found exactly what I wanted at food lion. SS pot scrubbers. Out let is open at the top. The vapors flow from the valve cover, to the canister, through the pipe into and through the steel wool and out the top to the intake. I also am testing a BMW AOS that offroadordinance sent me. I have it before my current AOS to see what it doesn't catch. Its a maze of hoses over there currently until I decide which AOS works better. I'm hoping the BMW one does as it has such a small foot print.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Let me know how the BMW part works out and, if you would, what the dimensions are. I see them on eBay all the time and, being the cheap bastid that I am, do not wish to just throw money at the issue. As it is, I repurposed a compressed air oil/water separator for this by simply drilling two rather small holes in the filter element so as to remove any flow restrictions. What works for pressure systems does not work for vacuum systems. The trick to to separate the liquid components without impeading the air flow in any way.

So, I am interested. If that is, I keep the Heep and do not sell it off which I am looking at doing as you know... Both the Wife and the Kid think I should hang on to it and they will sell it on after. Something about my last hurrah...

 

[Talyn]

Let me know how the BMW part works out and, if you would, what the dimensions are.

Its about 2" at the top, about 2.5" with the hose fittings. About 6" tall. I currently have mine mounted back by the AC dryer/accumulator. I have a clear hose running down to around the LCA frame mount with a ball valve on the end. I checked it yesterday and it has a little less than 1/8" of oil condensed in the bottom of the hose. I really hope it works well because it is so small.

 

[Talyn]

I went to layout the vacuum ports on the throttle body adapter plate and realized there isn't much room there. I will definitely have to use a vacuum manifold for the three smaller lines on the side of the manifold. For the water/meth nozzle I will either have to drill and tap a hole on the back of the SC in the cavity before the rotors or put it on the intake tube. I will also make a small throttle body spacer to allow for clearance of the vacuum fittings and allow for clearance on the IAC flange. Probably 3/8" or 1/4". I may also change the thickness of the TB adapter plate from 1/2" to 3/8". The MAP sensor will also have to be moved from the throttle body to a remote mount to allow room for the fittings. Future planning for the 68mm throttle body doesn't allow for much offset or the hole due to shrouding by the SC input flange. I could always modify the flange a little.

 

[Talyn]

I think I have found a solution to the throttle body adapter.

Keep in mind that the SC is rotated 15*, which will make the throttle body near level.

Green are the NPT fittings for the various vacuum items, blue is the throttle body spacers, and purple are some guides (countersunk bold heads, inside of SC, outside of SC). I will have to shave a bit of the inside of the SC at the bottom where the TB opening is, but still plenty of material to seal. The booster fitting will be a 1/4" NPT to 3/8" hose 90* fitting, the PCV will be a 3/8" hose to 1/4" NPT straight fitting, the Vac manifold will be a 1/2" hose to 3/8" NPT 90* fitting, and the bypass will be a 3/16" hose to 1/8" NPT fitting. I may swap the bypass and PCV ports though. Looks like everything will be cut out of 3/8" plate.

Hopefully I can cut some mock ups this weekend.

 

[CobraMarty]

Where are you 'plumbing' the MAP sensor?

 

[Talyn]

Stock port