mikeny59
NAXJA Member #300
- Location
- NY and/or Fl.
-
Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.
it's hot, servicing cooling system, is below article bs?!?
- Thread starter mikeny59
- Start date
Dr. Dyno
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Al Ain, UAE
If your engine has a cast iron block +/- head, you definitely don't want to be running only distilled water in the cooling system. An antifreeze with corrosion inhibitor is an absolute must.
Aluminium engines need a special type of coolant (usually red in colour) that inhibits electrolytic corrosion.
Aluminium engines need a special type of coolant (usually red in colour) that inhibits electrolytic corrosion.
mikeny59
NAXJA Member #300
- Location
- NY and/or Fl.
I certainly would still run the usual coolant/distilled water mix, and I found another article from a bmw board that says the specific benefit from ww is that it reduces hot spots around the cylinders/combustion chambers, specially valve seats that supposedly get red hot and devleop their own little case of vapor lock.
You know, this thread I think is going to become theoretical, I shouldn't of even started it.
Sorry
sv
You know, this thread I think is going to become theoretical, I shouldn't of even started it.
Sorry
sv
RichP
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Effort, Pa
Water Wetter isnt going to fix a failing cooling system, but it will slightly help a properly functioning one. I put some in last summer and I noticed that it did slightly help in the cooling of my engine. In traffic in the summertime when the temperatures are in the 90s with the A/C on my guage would sometimes read slightly past the middle of the gauge. Only slightly, it would get to about 215 sometimes. Under all other conditions it stayed right at 210. I put a bottle of Water Wetter in along with my 50/50 coolant/water mix and it always stayed right it 210 in all conditions and never hit 215. It not a huge improvement but it did slightly help.
Edit: I didnt read the post well enough, but thats my experience with water wetter.
Edit: I didnt read the post well enough, but thats my experience with water wetter.
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
Just throwing a couple of things out there, hot water has less free oxygen. Less oxidation. Coolant is acidic, with lubricants and inhibitors. The inhibitors are often films.
If electrolysis was actually a large problem, there would be sinks built into the system. Sinks are metals designed to absorb free electrons, often nickle.
Galvanized products are sacrificial anodes, they are supposed to oxidize but very slowly. A controlled process.
The acidic properties of coolant (dispite the obvious temperature benefits of a solution) are much of the actual corrosion. The acidic properties, help keep undesireable elements in water and by products of oxidation in suspension, to inhibit the build up of solids.
Distilled water has fewer solids, in solution.
Changing the coolant removes many of the solids in solution.
Dissimiliar metals, often (always) have an electron exchange, the properties of coolant, make it a better conductor, than plain water. Especially when it is a nearly saturated solution of metalic oxides.
If electrolysis was actually a large problem, there would be sinks built into the system. Sinks are metals designed to absorb free electrons, often nickle.
Galvanized products are sacrificial anodes, they are supposed to oxidize but very slowly. A controlled process.
The acidic properties of coolant (dispite the obvious temperature benefits of a solution) are much of the actual corrosion. The acidic properties, help keep undesireable elements in water and by products of oxidation in suspension, to inhibit the build up of solids.
Distilled water has fewer solids, in solution.
Changing the coolant removes many of the solids in solution.
Dissimiliar metals, often (always) have an electron exchange, the properties of coolant, make it a better conductor, than plain water. Especially when it is a nearly saturated solution of metalic oxides.
Last edited:
5-90
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Hammerspace
8mud - I think the word you want is "zincs" - not "sinks."
Zincs are a carryover from marine construction, and they are basically a shaped piece of cast zinc intended as a sacrificial anode - they corrode before the bronze screws or copper plating (found on some hulls) will.
You can get radiator caps - standard styles - with sacrificial zinc anodes, and they can also be found in residential water heaters. Nickel isn't a good choice for a sacrificial anode - electroless nickel is often used for "rustproofing" alloy steels, and works quite well (check out "Marine Magnum" shotguns - Mossberg 500 and Rem870 come to mind - for an example.) Now that that's out of the way...
Distilled or R/O filtered water is preferred for cooling system use, as the dissolved solids, sediment, and metals found in tap water are no present in distilled or R/O. This keeps the system innards from being coated with crap, and keeps the potential ion exchange activity down.
"Ion exchange activity" is also known as "galvanic action" - and the exchange of metal ions in an electrolyte solution (a liquid carrier of various ions - the ability of the solution to carry ions is largely a function of pH value/concentration of hydronium, or H3+, ions,) is going to be related to both the ion carrying potential of the electrolyte and the "distance" between metals on the scale of galvanic activity - the closer they are, the less ion exchange takes place. The farther apart the metals are, the more activity.
Note that the use of aluminum radiators became quite popular alongside the use of aluminum major engine parts - there is a significant degree of separation between aluminum and copper, as I recall.
Engine coolant inhibits corrosion in the following manners:
Acid Netutralisers - this keeps the formation of acids down in coolant (lower pH = higher acidity = better electrolyte,) thus reducing ion migration through the coolant.
Antioxidisers - help to prevent the oxidation of metal parts in the cooling system. Oxidised metals are a wonderful source of ions, which increases the potential for galvanic action.
Oxygen binders - keep free oxygen in the system to a minimum, thereby reducing oxidation of parts. Separate function from antioxidisers.
The principal benefit to Water Wetter is the fact that is significantly reduces the strength of surface tension (ST) of water and water-based solutions. Surface tension is the force that makes the "surface" of the water, and determines the amount of "wetting" that takes place when a fluid comes into contact with something else (including other fluids.) When you see oil and water separate, the boundary layer - and its sharp profile - an an example of surface tension.
For the sake of experiment, put about a quarter cup of water and a quarter cup of cooking oil into a closable clear container and stir or shake. Wait - you'll start to see the layer form - that's the surface tension difference between the oil and the water. The oil ends up on top because it is less dense.
Open the container, and add about a half-teaspoon of any ordinarly liquid soap. Close, and stir/shake. Wait.
Keep waiting - because the oil should not separate from the water (or not as drastically.) The soap has reduced the surface tension of the water to the point where the two fluids don't separate anymore - and this is why soap gets oil and grease off your hands. The soap doesn't actually dissolve anything - it makes the water more able to dissolve things, by making it "wetter."
Surface tension is also a critical factor in designing liquid coolant systems - the "wetter" we can get the surfaces involved, the more contact there is between the coolant and heat source, and coolant and heat sink - and the more heat can be transferred by the coolant and the more heat can be ejected from the system.
Water Wetter is a surface tension reducer, which enables more contact between the coolant and the metals involved.
It would stand to reason that WW would also help to inhibit corrosion - metal submerged in reasonably pure water should not corrode. Take it out, and it will start to - if you don't dry it off. The water doesn't cause corrosion - it enables it by allowing the transfer of ions. It is things like suspended oxygen that causes corrosion.
WW would inhibit corrosion in distilled water by encouraging more contact between the metal and the water - and thereby keeping free oxygen from the surface of the parts.
Oh- due to the increased molecular activity, hot water can be more enabling of corrosion than cold water - simply because molecular activity is increased with heat. This is why the additives in coolant are so important, and why they "wear out" and require changing at regular intervals.
This is, of course, a horrid simplification of what's happening in there, but it's a good start.
The galvanic action can be checked quite easily in a cooling system. Take a DC Voltmeter, and set it to the 2V scale. Put the + probe into the coolant (don't touch anything metal) and the - terminal to any conveniend ground on the cooling system. If you read more than .2VDC, you need to change the coolant - and flushing the system isn't a bad idea to help get anything else out. Your cooling system has become a battery...
5-90
Zincs are a carryover from marine construction, and they are basically a shaped piece of cast zinc intended as a sacrificial anode - they corrode before the bronze screws or copper plating (found on some hulls) will.
You can get radiator caps - standard styles - with sacrificial zinc anodes, and they can also be found in residential water heaters. Nickel isn't a good choice for a sacrificial anode - electroless nickel is often used for "rustproofing" alloy steels, and works quite well (check out "Marine Magnum" shotguns - Mossberg 500 and Rem870 come to mind - for an example.) Now that that's out of the way...
Distilled or R/O filtered water is preferred for cooling system use, as the dissolved solids, sediment, and metals found in tap water are no present in distilled or R/O. This keeps the system innards from being coated with crap, and keeps the potential ion exchange activity down.
"Ion exchange activity" is also known as "galvanic action" - and the exchange of metal ions in an electrolyte solution (a liquid carrier of various ions - the ability of the solution to carry ions is largely a function of pH value/concentration of hydronium, or H3+, ions,) is going to be related to both the ion carrying potential of the electrolyte and the "distance" between metals on the scale of galvanic activity - the closer they are, the less ion exchange takes place. The farther apart the metals are, the more activity.
Note that the use of aluminum radiators became quite popular alongside the use of aluminum major engine parts - there is a significant degree of separation between aluminum and copper, as I recall.
Engine coolant inhibits corrosion in the following manners:
Acid Netutralisers - this keeps the formation of acids down in coolant (lower pH = higher acidity = better electrolyte,) thus reducing ion migration through the coolant.
Antioxidisers - help to prevent the oxidation of metal parts in the cooling system. Oxidised metals are a wonderful source of ions, which increases the potential for galvanic action.
Oxygen binders - keep free oxygen in the system to a minimum, thereby reducing oxidation of parts. Separate function from antioxidisers.
The principal benefit to Water Wetter is the fact that is significantly reduces the strength of surface tension (ST) of water and water-based solutions. Surface tension is the force that makes the "surface" of the water, and determines the amount of "wetting" that takes place when a fluid comes into contact with something else (including other fluids.) When you see oil and water separate, the boundary layer - and its sharp profile - an an example of surface tension.
For the sake of experiment, put about a quarter cup of water and a quarter cup of cooking oil into a closable clear container and stir or shake. Wait - you'll start to see the layer form - that's the surface tension difference between the oil and the water. The oil ends up on top because it is less dense.
Open the container, and add about a half-teaspoon of any ordinarly liquid soap. Close, and stir/shake. Wait.
Keep waiting - because the oil should not separate from the water (or not as drastically.) The soap has reduced the surface tension of the water to the point where the two fluids don't separate anymore - and this is why soap gets oil and grease off your hands. The soap doesn't actually dissolve anything - it makes the water more able to dissolve things, by making it "wetter."
Surface tension is also a critical factor in designing liquid coolant systems - the "wetter" we can get the surfaces involved, the more contact there is between the coolant and heat source, and coolant and heat sink - and the more heat can be transferred by the coolant and the more heat can be ejected from the system.
Water Wetter is a surface tension reducer, which enables more contact between the coolant and the metals involved.
It would stand to reason that WW would also help to inhibit corrosion - metal submerged in reasonably pure water should not corrode. Take it out, and it will start to - if you don't dry it off. The water doesn't cause corrosion - it enables it by allowing the transfer of ions. It is things like suspended oxygen that causes corrosion.
WW would inhibit corrosion in distilled water by encouraging more contact between the metal and the water - and thereby keeping free oxygen from the surface of the parts.
Oh- due to the increased molecular activity, hot water can be more enabling of corrosion than cold water - simply because molecular activity is increased with heat. This is why the additives in coolant are so important, and why they "wear out" and require changing at regular intervals.
This is, of course, a horrid simplification of what's happening in there, but it's a good start.
The galvanic action can be checked quite easily in a cooling system. Take a DC Voltmeter, and set it to the 2V scale. Put the + probe into the coolant (don't touch anything metal) and the - terminal to any conveniend ground on the cooling system. If you read more than .2VDC, you need to change the coolant - and flushing the system isn't a bad idea to help get anything else out. Your cooling system has become a battery...
5-90
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
Right Zinks not Sinks, dyslexia strikes again :laugh3:
They sometimes use nickle anodes, that coat/plate various metals, inside of metal hot water systems, using electrolysis as an asset, rather than a liablility.
They also use silver to kill bacteria.
They sometimes use nickle anodes, that coat/plate various metals, inside of metal hot water systems, using electrolysis as an asset, rather than a liablility.
They also use silver to kill bacteria.
Last edited:
5-90
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Hammerspace
Very true. In the "covered wagon" days, it was a common practise to put a silver coin (usually a "cartwheel" - $1) into the milk pitcher - this kept it fresh throughout the day without benefit of refrigeration.
An interesting line of search to pursue is "colloidal silver" - which is enjoying a re-emergence in health circles. It has also shown excellent results when used in bandages for large-area burns - the gauze to be next to the burned skin is soaked is a solution of colloidal silver (susp.), which encourages healing, prevents infection, and also reduces scarring.
Colloidal silver, taken orally in small amounts, has also shown significant benefits to overall health.
As I recall, one of the better writeups on "how and why" appeared on the site for Ford's More Than Military (www.fordsmtm.com, if memory serves,) along with generators and supplies. Worth looking into - if for no more than academic interest.
I'd not heard of nickel being used as a sacrifical anode - have you a source I could check? Every time I've heard of nickel being used in conjunction with corrosion reduction/elimination, it's always been as a protective coating (electroless nickel being preferred over nickel electroplate, due to the fact that electroless nickel presents a more uniform coating thickness.)
5-90
An interesting line of search to pursue is "colloidal silver" - which is enjoying a re-emergence in health circles. It has also shown excellent results when used in bandages for large-area burns - the gauze to be next to the burned skin is soaked is a solution of colloidal silver (susp.), which encourages healing, prevents infection, and also reduces scarring.
Colloidal silver, taken orally in small amounts, has also shown significant benefits to overall health.
As I recall, one of the better writeups on "how and why" appeared on the site for Ford's More Than Military (www.fordsmtm.com, if memory serves,) along with generators and supplies. Worth looking into - if for no more than academic interest.
I'd not heard of nickel being used as a sacrifical anode - have you a source I could check? Every time I've heard of nickel being used in conjunction with corrosion reduction/elimination, it's always been as a protective coating (electroless nickel being preferred over nickel electroplate, due to the fact that electroless nickel presents a more uniform coating thickness.)
5-90
mikeny59
NAXJA Member #300
- Location
- NY and/or Fl.
Hey, I did fess up that I shouldn't of started the thread, 5-90, appreciate the chem. lesson,
Boy, I'm glad I moved down to the middle school...
sv
Boy, I'm glad I moved down to the middle school...
sv
bajacalal
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- San Diego (North County), California
Very good write up, 5-90.
Incidentally though, water wetter (the Redline product) is fortified with corrosion inhibiting chemicals, to boost that propert of traditional antifreezer and to inhibit oxidation in motors where pure water is used (racing). This, it says on the label and their brochures which I have. So this, not the other (surfactant) ingredients is why it kept the metals from corroding.
Also, where can you buy radiator caps w/ sacrifical zincs included?
The use of distilled water, a very good idea. Boil a pot of so. california tap water (the heat makes some suspended solids drop out) and you get about a half inch of sediment. Autopart stores ought to carry it... oh well the supermarket does.
Incidentally though, water wetter (the Redline product) is fortified with corrosion inhibiting chemicals, to boost that propert of traditional antifreezer and to inhibit oxidation in motors where pure water is used (racing). This, it says on the label and their brochures which I have. So this, not the other (surfactant) ingredients is why it kept the metals from corroding.
Also, where can you buy radiator caps w/ sacrifical zincs included?
The use of distilled water, a very good idea. Boil a pot of so. california tap water (the heat makes some suspended solids drop out) and you get about a half inch of sediment. Autopart stores ought to carry it... oh well the supermarket does.
5-90
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Hammerspace
Yeah - I'm sure there's more to WW than the surfactants, but that's the big thing - and from that is derived the largest benefit. That's why (I seem to recall...) that DW + WW can do better than DW + AF - antifreeze doesn't do much to raise the boiling point (that's a function of applied pressure,) but it does depress the freezing point to a more useful level in colder climes. The extra wetting due to the addition of WW will still have a beneficial effect against corrosion, for reasons stated. If I had access to a gas chromatograph, I'd like to take a few of these additives apart and find out what we're really putting in things - but I've got a curious nature. Some would call it "prying." MMO is something else I'd like to take apart, f'r instance.
For vehicle use, I use R/O filtered water exclusively. I have a couple bulk containers that I use, and that's ALL that EVER goes into them - with the possible exception of trace amounts of saliva when I get really thirsty...
I know those SA caps are out there - but don't check with the big "chain" stores - with the possible exception of NAPA, they just don't carry anything useful. Check with some of the smaller outfits, and you'll have better luck.
Also, bear in mind that these are standard "bayonet" caps, and won't work with the threaded "closed system" cap (unless you've converted to an aftermarket metal tank, which is not a bad idea. If the closed system can be said to have a flaw, it is the plastic tank - which EVERYONE uses! Damned accountants...) You can still fabricate something yourself, if you have access to zinc mill stock. It will just take a little doing, that's all.
And you thought everything you learned in HS chem was useless... A good mechanic is a generalist - he has to understand HOW and WHY things work. If you don't, you'll have a hard time making them work BETTER.
5-90
For vehicle use, I use R/O filtered water exclusively. I have a couple bulk containers that I use, and that's ALL that EVER goes into them - with the possible exception of trace amounts of saliva when I get really thirsty...
I know those SA caps are out there - but don't check with the big "chain" stores - with the possible exception of NAPA, they just don't carry anything useful. Check with some of the smaller outfits, and you'll have better luck.
Also, bear in mind that these are standard "bayonet" caps, and won't work with the threaded "closed system" cap (unless you've converted to an aftermarket metal tank, which is not a bad idea. If the closed system can be said to have a flaw, it is the plastic tank - which EVERYONE uses! Damned accountants...) You can still fabricate something yourself, if you have access to zinc mill stock. It will just take a little doing, that's all.
And you thought everything you learned in HS chem was useless... A good mechanic is a generalist - he has to understand HOW and WHY things work. If you don't, you'll have a hard time making them work BETTER.
5-90
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
5-90 said:
Most of my exposure to nickle (probably an alloy), being used as an anode is in building sized heat exchangers, mostly older buildings. They have newer methods and materials now. Many of the heating pipes in (top end) older buildings have a silver metalic coating on the inside, which seems to inhibit corrosion.
The rusty screw test in a glass of water, isn´t really valid (not saying water wetter isn´t good). First the water has to be heated to boling, then covered. Less free oxygen, less rust. Second, iron rusts in antifreeze, but this is slowed by inhibitors and what does get through, is usually in suspension, so you can´t see it anyway (until it´s way past time for a coolant change).
Coolant designed to protect aluminum from electrolysis, may be necessary (but I´m skeptical), there are other processes as good if not better. Anodes being one, coatings another. I´m pretty sure if the engineers thought electrolysis was a problem, they´d have a solution other than modifying the coolant, electrolysis is nothing new.
I personnaly think much of the aluminum damage is from the PH, more than from electrolysis.
Newer coolants may have extra oxidation inhibitors.
I sure don´t believe everything a manufacturer says, some of it is snake oil. If my anti freeze says it´s approved by leading auto manufacturers, who am I to argue.
Silver anodes in the bottom of a swimming pool, make lower levels of chlorine practical.
Similar threads
