Is America christian, yes

Rich;
I respectfully disagree with you. Our country was NOT founded as a Christian country. Say what you want, but the truth is fact.

I am not bashing Christianity at all. There were Christians among our founding fathers. There were also Deists and yes it seems to me the religions share a lot in common - only my viewpoint.

Farwell address or not - look up the facts, Washington was a Deist. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. Have to ask yourself why, maybe because he was not a Christian?

You should have also emphasized how Madison was the Father of our Constitution, he was also the stongest proponent of separation of church and state. These guys all remember a little thing called the 'Church of England' and they didn't like it much. Also, Madison stated, "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, and "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." Doesn't quite fit in with your view, but.........

John Adams, our second President, It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

I agree with you, look up the facts, not what someone with an agenda wrote.
 
Madison being a big proponent of separation of church and state doesn't mean he saw a problem with the church necessarily. Like you said, he remembered a thing called the Church of England and knew that if the gov't was run by any particular religion, we would not have the freedom that they sought. A Christian gov't would make laws that excluded Hindu, Jewish gov't would exclude Christianity, Muslim gov't would kill all who don't believe (;)), etc etc. Like many Christians I know today, he likely knew that putting one religion over all in law and cramming it down the people's throats would not be conducive to promoting Christianity.
Where are your sources for your claims regarding Washington's deathbed?

This country was founded on largely Christian morals, but our forefathers had the sense to not write Christianity as the law of the land. They'd already seen what happens when men get power and can claim that power is from God.
 
Rod Knee said:
In broad terms, what you say is more or less correct. However we still have a sizable part of the population that tends to endorse coerced school prayer. I don't think that imposing religion on someone else's kids is what the founding fathers had in mind, especially considering there is no mention of a nationally endorsed religion in the Constitution, the foundation for law in this country. Meanwhile, any student is free to pray unobtrusively in the middle of a math test, which is as it should be. I somehow don't think the founding father's would have thought I needed to recite an affirmation of someone else's religion to be patriotic either, such as in "one nation under God", thank you very much.
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Hey, God can refer to many religions. In English, Allah is simply God. The Jews believe in God. The Hindus have many gods.
Rod Knee said:
Fighting imposed religion such as coerced prayer is not a waste of resources. It is a noble and essential undertaking. Alot of Iranians agree.
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Since when was prayer coerced? The last I heard was they had made it a quiet time when you could pray, meditate, fart, pick your nose, do whatever came to you, quietly. Of course this was before it was pushed for that it was removed entirely. After that, I was under the impression kids weren't allowed to pray at school at all.
CherBear said:
RichP,

I will agree with you that the US is primarily Christian. Yes lots of unwritten "Traditions" are faith based. Think of "In God We Trust" on our dollar bills, our "Ten Commandments" on courthouse lawns. These are all very Christian based.

This Does NOT mean that we are a theocracy. Think of middle Eastern nations, they are theocracies. Many of their laws are based on their interpretation of the Qur'an. Think of laws about women's rights and religious holiday observances.

The difference between the US and a Theocracy is that the majority of Americans are Christian, so Christian values and ideas tend to enter government by convenience rather than by legislation. (Which I don't Always agree with)
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We aren't claiming that the nation is a theocracy or ever was, I believe the question was regarding what belief system we were founded on.

Someone mentioned how Christmas is a bad term these days. I disagree. That's the name of the holiday. Christmas was about the birth of Jesus. I won't deny the timing coincides with Winter Solstice, a traditionally pagan holiday and that a lot of the traditions that are now followed are stolen from that. But there's absolutely no reason not to pronounce and spell it Christma as that is the holiday. If you don't believe in Christ, fine. You don't have to celebrate Christmas. If you are an atheist, or believe ina different religion, there ought to be no shame in celebrating Winter Solstice. You still have your tree and lights (that came from Solstice anyways), and you can still get together with falimy and exchange gifts, talk about Santa, etc.
Christmas was around long before you. As was Winter Solstice. Sounds to me like we've covered all the bases. The Jews have Hannukah, the Christians have Christmas, and the atheists have Winter Solstice.
 
RichP said:
Yea, read paragraph 27 of his farewell address. I think it's always funny when current 'experts' write about 'how it was' a few hundred years ago and ignore the writings of the man himself and all the people around him.

Oh, that's not what he really meant.... LOL
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I DID read it. He mentions religion and morality but no where in his farewell address does he allude to Christianity, the bible or Christ.
He speaks of religion at its most basic terms which fits well with his deist beliefs.


Go find a quote from his farewell address that shows he is Christian.
 
So, a website about/promoting deism tells you Washington was a deisyt and you automatically believe it?
 
RichP said:
Yea, read paragraph 27 of his farewell address. I think it's always funny when current 'experts' write about 'how it was' a few hundred years ago and ignore the writings of the man himself and all the people around him.

Oh, that's not what he really meant.... LOL
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Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.






How is that an endorsement of Christianity?
 
Darky said:
So, a website about/promoting deism tells you Washington was a deisyt and you automatically believe it?
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No of course not, Im not making my opinions from the website, but it contains information from verifiable sources.

Where did you make your opinion from?
 
ocean_jet said:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.






How is that an endorsement of Christianity?
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Exactly, It isnt. It is an endorsement of morality through religion. Which fits perfectly with deist views.

You all do realize that deism is very different from atheism...:greensmok
 
When you say "America is Christian", what do you mean, and what is your purpose for assigning a specific religion to our secular nation?


If you mean the majority of people are Christian... sure, we're a Christian nation... but what about the real possibility that at some point in the future that Christians are the minority?

If you mean that somehow the institutions of the United States are Christian, and governed by the a church, I think it's well established that the institutions of the United States were established with the intent of them being separate from religion.

If you mean the moral system that is the foundation of our justice system is based on Christian ideology, well, of course that would make sense, since most of the founding fathers, whether Christian or Deist or other, likely received their moral system from the teachings of Christianity. But of course, that doesn't necessarily make someone Christian. Many people who grow up to be atheists in the US, received their moral system from a Christian upbringing, or exposure to Chritian morals. And, if this is what you mean... so what? What is your point?
 
CherBear said:
No of course not, Im not making my opinions from the website, but it contains information from verifiable sources.

Where did you make your opinion from?
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Our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, etc. Our rights are God-given. My belief is that we were founded on a Judeo-Christian basis. That doesn't mean that we ever had an official religion.
 
ocean_jet said:
When you say "America is Christian", what do you mean, and what is your purpose for assigning a specific religion to our secular nation?


If you mean the majority of people are Christian... sure, we're a Christian nation... but what about the real possibility that at some point in the future that Christians are the minority?

If you mean that somehow the institutions of the United States are Christian, and governed by the a church, I think it's well established that the institutions of the United States were established with the intent of them being separate from religion.

If you mean the moral system that is the foundation of our justice system is based on Christian ideology, well, of course that would make sense, since most of the founding fathers, whether Christian or Deist or other, likely received their moral system from the teachings of Christianity. But of course, that doesn't necessarily make someone Christian. Many people who grow up to be atheists in the US, received their moral system from a Christian upbringing, or exposure to Chritian morals. And, if this is what you mean... so what? What is your point?
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Well, which one are you arguing against? As we've both agreed on, this nation is not nor has been governed by the church. The separation of church and state isn't so much to keep religion out of government but to keep government out of religion. To keep government from backing any one particular faith. I haven't heard anyone here claim that we are a theocratic nation.
 
Darky said:
Well, which one are you arguing against? As we've both agreed on, this nation is not nor has been governed by the church. The separation of church and state isn't so much to keep religion out of government but to keep government out of religion. To keep government from backing any one particular faith. I haven't heard anyone here claim that we are a theocratic nation.
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What in the world are we arguing about again??
 
I'd say it's a reaction to how strenuously many will argue that there is no religious correlation to our gov't, founding father, or chunky peanut butter. People try to shove religion aside like it doesn't exist, just cuz they don't like it.
 
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