How about some handgun recommendations

[ECKSJAY]

So, 1911s then... have any you're partial to that don't break the bank?

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the RIA models. If you can find one, get some diamond files and a Wilson spring kit. For under $600 you can have something arguably better than a Springfield basic GI for the same price. The only real differences between the RIA and the Springfield is that one is finished more. Mine started life as a Springfield 90s Edition, which was the precursor to the 'Mil-Spec'. It was a basic 1911A1. A few changes here and there and it's about what you'd call a 'Mil-Spec Loaded' these days. The basic frame and slide were forged in Brazil, but it was cut and finished in IL. Nowadays they're pretty much just assembled here... Only thing I've left to do on this one is put on an ambi extended safety. ERM, I MEAN...I sold all my guns. Don't have anymore.

 

[Starscream]

ERM, I MEAN...I sold all my guns. Don't have anymore.

My God, I'm so sorry to hear about your boat.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the RIA models. If you can find one, get some diamond files and a Wilson spring kit. For under $600 you can have something arguably better than a Springfield basic GI for the same price. The only real differences between the RIA and the Springfield is that one is finished more. Mine started life as a Springfield 90s Edition, which was the precursor to the 'Mil-Spec'. It was a basic 1911A1. A few changes here and there and it's about what you'd call a 'Mil-Spec Loaded' these days. The basic frame and slide were forged in Brazil, but it was cut and finished in IL. Nowadays they're pretty much just assembled here... Only thing I've left to do on this one is put on an ambi extended safety.

So the gun pictured is an RIA? I've read that they're built a bit sub-par (too tight, lots of break in, etc.) How's it shoot? Is modification really a necessity? Were I to get one I'm sure I'd pretty it up, but how's performance?

 

[RichP]

My God, I'm so sorry to hear about your boat.


So the gun pictured is an RIA? I've read that they're built a bit sub-par (too tight, lots of break in, etc.) How's it shoot? Is modification really a necessity? Were I to get one I'm sure I'd pretty it up, but how's performance?

Reminds me of a gun show I went to years ago up in Ct one weekend, there was a booth setup that had smiths from the colt custom shop there and they would do a tune up on any you brought them on the spot. One guy dropped a 1911A issue .45 on the table, one of the smiths picked it up, fondled it for a while then, shook it a few times to see how much it rattled, took it apart and laid the slide down on the bench and proceeded to give it about 10 whacks with a weighted mallet, couple of trial fits, more whacks, fit, etc, did a few other things then reassembled it, tightened that sob right up, no more slide wobble...

 

[ECKSJAY]

My God, I'm so sorry to hear about your boat.

*sigh* I'll get by. Thanks for your concern.

So the gun pictured is an RIA? I've read that they're built a bit sub-par (too tight, lots of break in, etc.) How's it shoot? Is modification really a necessity? Were I to get one I'm sure I'd pretty it up, but how's performance?

No, mine's a Springfield...

RIA = Rock Island Armory

You don't 'have to' finish anything...but you're getting what you pay for. I'm suggesting that you save some money and do it yourself. It's a great opportunity to learn the inner workings of your piece and learn something about the history of the firearm. Unless you're the kinda guy who has someone else work on his Jeep. Does that make any sense? If you're not comfortable, spend the extra money and get something 'done' already. Performance on the RIAs is just fine with the 3 my buddy has built.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Reminds me of a gun show I went to years ago up in Ct one weekend, there was a booth setup that had smiths from the colt custom shop there and they would do a tune up on any you brought them on the spot. One guy dropped a 1911A issue .45 on the table, one of the smiths picked it up, fondled it for a while then, shook it a few times to see how much it rattled, took it apart and laid the slide down on the bench and proceeded to give it about 10 whacks with a weighted mallet, couple of trial fits, more whacks, fit, etc, did a few other things then reassembled it, tightened that sob right up, no more slide wobble...

...and that's how you tighten up a loose slide.

 

[Kittrell]

 

[Starscream]

No, mine's a Springfield

Whoops, must've misread :dunno:

You don't 'have to' finish anything...but you're getting what you pay for. I'm suggesting that you save some money and do it yourself. It's a great opportunity to learn the inner workings of your piece and learn something about the history of the firearm.

It is something I'd like to do, but...

Unless you're the kinda guy who has someone else work on his Jeep. Does that make any sense? If you're not comfortable, spend the extra money and get something 'done' already. Performance on the RIAs is just fine with the 3 my buddy has built.

I understand what you're saying, and I've always striven to do things myself if at all possible, but screwing up a lift install is one thing, mucking up a weapon is a whole 'nother. I'm just afraid I'd do something wrong being so new at it and then *BANG* where'd my fingers go?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Jeep1991/EMP.jpg

:guitar:

 

[ECKSJAY]

I understand what you're saying, and I've always striven to do things myself if at all possible, but screwing up a lift install is one thing, mucking up a weapon is a whole 'nother. I'm just afraid I'd do something wrong being so new at it and then *BANG* where'd my fingers go?

I understand what you're saying, too...but honestly, you're not doing anything to screw it up so bad you'll hurt yourself. When we're done maintaining or servicing any weapon, we do what's called a function check. It's kinda like a shakedown run with your Jeep. If something isn't right, you tear down and troubleshoot. I tear down, inspect, and function check any weapon I buy (bought) before it leaves the shop or person I'm buying from. A good shop should show you how when you're looking or buying.

 

[Starscream]

I understand what you're saying, too...but honestly, you're not doing anything to screw it up so bad you'll hurt yourself. When we're done maintaining or servicing any weapon, we do what's called a function check. It's kinda like a shakedown run with your Jeep. If something isn't right, you tear down and troubleshoot.

Sounds straightforward enough.

I tear down, inspect, and function check any weapon I buy (bought) before it leaves the shop or person I'm buying from. A good shop should show you how when you're looking or buying.

That's one of the main reasons I didn't buy that P6 I shot a few weeks back. It had just come in a few hours before I saw it, was dirty as all get out, and the shop wouldn't let me do a breakdown inspection of it right in front of them. They said they would let their gunsmith look it over in the back and tell me if there was anything wrong with it. Maybe they thought I was gullible :dunno: Oh well, I'm going shooting again this coming week so I'll see if I can get a hold of some of the weapons mentioned here. I can't even find a place selling RIAs. I asked a shop here in town and they had no idea what I was talking about.

 

[RedHeep]

Sounds straightforward enough.

That's one of the main reasons I didn't buy that P6 I shot a few weeks back. It had just come in a few hours before I saw it, was dirty as all get out, and the shop wouldn't let me do a breakdown inspection of it right in front of them. They said they would let their gunsmith look it over in the back and tell me if there was anything wrong with it. Maybe they thought I was gullible :dunno: Oh well, I'm going shooting again this coming week so I'll see if I can get a hold of some of the weapons mentioned here. I can't even find a place selling RIAs. I asked a shop here in town and they had no idea what I was talking about.

You might have misunderstood. If they're a reputable business and have warranties with their used guns, they might have wanted their smith to look at it, repair it, clean it up, etc. before they sold it to you.

Don't forget that sometimes you're dealing with a salesman and not an experienced gunsmith. Don't be afraid to ask to talk to the guy who knows, instead of the guy who rings up the cash register.

If you're going to buy an RIA, I'd still suggest spending an extra hundred on a springfield.

 

[iwannadie]

I love my springfield armory XD, 1000s of rounds shot and not a single problem. All Ive ever done is a basic field strip/clean and lube to it and its 100% reliable in my eyes. Ive had it for 3-4 years now I think and daily carry it so its not a safe queen.

My next pistol will be a springfield armory 1911.

 

[Starscream]

You might have misunderstood. If they're a reputable business and have warranties with their used guns, they might have wanted their smith to look at it, repair it, clean it up, etc. before they sold it to you.

Don't forget that sometimes you're dealing with a salesman and not an experienced gunsmith. Don't be afraid to ask to talk to the guy who knows, instead of the guy who rings up the cash register.

If you're going to buy an RIA, I'd still suggest spending an extra hundred on a springfield.

Yeah, I guess they didn't want me to open it up and turn down a sale because of it looking worse than it was. That makes sense, if that's what you're getting at.

I love my springfield armory XD, 1000s of rounds shot and not a single problem. All Ive ever done is a basic field strip/clean and lube to it and its 100% reliable in my eyes. Ive had it for 3-4 years now I think and daily carry it so its not a safe queen.

My next pistol will be a springfield armory 1911.

The XD .40 was the first pistol I ever fired and I keep coming back to it. A friend of mine has the 4" .40 and I love it. My only gripe is the trigger safety, but I'll get over that just because the overall weapon feels great. The price is right, the gun is right, it seems to be an easy weapon to conceal carry... I just have to decide and do some comparisons between it and the SIG pro. I'm leaning more towards the XD compact or even the subcompact with a grip extension. I really, really wanted the HK but after what ECKSJAY has said and reading some postings online, the thing seems like a total joke to try to conceal.

 

[iwannadie]

Yeah, I guess they didn't want me to open it up and turn down a sale because of it looking worse than it was. That makes sense, if that's what you're getting at.


The XD .40 was the first pistol I ever fired and I keep coming back to it. A friend of mine has the 4" .40 and I love it. My only gripe is the trigger safety, but I'll get over that just because the overall weapon feels great. The price is right, the gun is right, it seems to be an easy weapon to conceal carry... I just have to decide and do some comparisons between it and the SIG pro. I'm leaning more towards the XD compact or even the subcompact with a grip extension. I really, really wanted the HK but after what ECKSJAY has said and reading some postings online, the thing seems like a total joke to try to conceal.

What do you not like about the trigger safety?

 

[5-90]

Any John Browning design (1911/1991 or Hi-Power) is a good thing. The man knew what he was doing. NB: The Hi-Power is probably the only 9m/m I like (I dislike the 9x19 on principle, based on after-action reports. It has a habit of overpenetration, "one-shot stop" record is abysmal, and the proliferation of high-capacity 9m/m autos has a lot to do with the "Spray and Pray" or "Accuracy by Volume" tendency happening out there. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice, but twice should be all you need.)

H&K USP - Again, well-executed. I just have short, stubby fingers, so the ergonomics (of a good design!) just don't work well for me.

Ditto Glock - the only one I really liked was the G36 single-stack subcompact .45ACP (and I've owned a G17 and a G19, oddly enough.)

H&K P7M9 - again and oddity - it's a 9m/m design I like (not the round, just the pistol.)

Colt Defender - if you can find one, it's not a bad piece at all. Probably about a Officer-sized auto, largely follows the 1911, but in a .40S&W. The .40 isn't a bad calibre - nice compromise (but I do prefer the .45ACP hands down. Anything the .40 can do, the .45 can do better. The JTC solids for the .40 aren't bad, but it will work much better - terminally - with either Winchester Silvertip, Federal Hydra-Shok, or Cor-Bon hollowpoints.)

The catch with autos is that the learning curve for malfunctions and suchlike tends to be a bit steeper - so you have to put more work into it. If you don't feel like it, and you're just going to use it for "nightstand defense" and want anyone in the house to be capable of using it, you may be better served getting a light revolver. If you get a .357 (Magnum or Maximum,) you have a decent little six-shooter that should be able to take any ammo that fits the chamber, gives decent performance (even using .38 Special LWC!) you don't have to worry about the safety, don't have to worry about jams, and if the round doesn't fire you just pull the trigger again. Single action if you take the time to thumb the hammer back, double action if you don't. Practise using .38 Special to start with (lighter recoil, better for learning proper handling,) and keep it handy with .357 rounds. Make sure you go into "second-stage practise" with .357s - but you can use .38s most of the time, they're cheaper and easier to learn handling with (and the .38 Special is already superior to the 9m/m in terminal ballistics. The Army accepted the .45ACP to replace the .38 Special because the 9x19 wasn't even comparable to the .38 Special. We use it now because "it's what everyone else uses" - but what is Popular is not always Right.)

If you really want to simplify home defense, then get a short 12ga pump (18.5" bbl) and load it with #4 buckshot rounds - 2-3/4" rounds OK. You'll get a nice scatter pattern, but the light buckshot won't penetrate exterior walls like, say, the 9m/m will (if you go with a pistol, I do recommend the use of Glaser Safety Slugs indoors if you can still find them - or soft-alloy hollowpoints like the Silvertip or the Hydra-Shok if not. Minimise risk to "innocent bystanders.")

I'm not a huge fan of most of the "new age" autos - mainly because I have a hard time getting used to a handful of plastic (I came up on the 1911. I'd much sooner fill my hand with carbon steel or CRES - and I want to know that I can whack someone upside the head with the thing and not expect any trouble other than a solid, meaty "thud!" when I do. Or shortly after.) This is not to stay that "plastic" pistols aren't well-made - quite a few of them are! And, I can pick up pretty much anything and print a happy group with it. I just happen to have preferences - kinda like we all have with tools. I have a broad selection of hammers (15 or so, various weights and heads) but I have one "favourite" hammer (16-oz claw hammer, fibreglas handle, Craftsman) that swings like an extension of my arm. I can count on the fingers of one nose how many times I've missed with that hammer in the last twenty years.

For me, a 1911 is the same way - aiming it is like pointing my finger. Where I point my finger is where the pill goes - unless I do something wrong. I don't have to think about it - it just happens. That's what I'm looking for in a pistol - I don't care if I can't drill a one-hole group at fifty yards in a modified Weaver or an Isocoles stance - but if I can dump a magazine at top speed into a dinner plate at fifteen yards, I'm good. Do a double-tap and both holes are an inch or so apart at 15 or so? Solid - that's what I want.

And, if I get along well enough with a design that I can repeat that performance rain, snow, s**t, or mud; hung over, hung out, or hung upside down; that's fine by me.

The short form of all this? Especially if you're going to carry it, make sure it's a design that fits your paws well and you don't have to think about. Make sure you can hit all of the controls by touch. Can you strip it and assemble it in the dark? Probably eventually - but that's not as necessary. But, if you don't have to grope or search for controls, if the trigger is in the right place for your finger, and if it feels like an extension of your hand, you've got the right sidearm - and don't let anyone tell you anything different. I'll put more faith in a .22 that handles well than in a .500 Smith that don't handle worth a damn - I'll put the bullets from that .22 where I need to!

 

[iwannadie]

Just to add, I think the gun has to feel right in your hand. If you have to adapt to the gun its not right for you, at least not your first gun.

A friend and I bought our first pistols at the same time. I was open to whatever and rented/fired a bunch of guns before I settled on the XD. My friend had brand X(I wont start a brand war here) drilled into his brain as the Only gun worth owning. So, he went to the store and picked out the brand X gun without a glance at anything else.

He also went for the biggest caliper wanting that 'stopping power' where as I went with the 9mm. Our first few weeks with the guns we went to the range, he was shooting 20rds at a time because of the cost. I was burning through 100s no problem on the cost of it.

Then we ran into the accuracy issues, his high power gun was all over the place. He couldnt hit the paper at 20yards the majority of the time. I was double tapping and laying nice groups day1 and only got better the more I shot. He kept telling me my 9mm was a waste and he has stopping power. Well if you cant hit the guy all that stopping power is just wizzing by the target. You miss that first .45 shot the other guy pulls a 9mm and tags you Anywhere. You may not go down but your not aiming any better for a follow up shot leaving you a sitting duck for a 17rd barrage of 9's.

He also ran into Tons of problems with the pistol failing to feed, the slid locking open or not locking. It was all because it didnt fit his hand properly the gun functioned perfectly fine. Im sure he could have resolved that with practice. However, practice cost a lot more because of the caliper he went with.

Bottom line, my 9mm may be a poor choice for killing a human compared to a .45. I of course hope to never need to shoot someone but I shoot a lot of paper. If pressed, my 18rds of 9's are going to hit someone accurate, fast and reliable. Compared to my friend who if pressed will hope the sight of the gun is enough to save his life. Plus, the hollow point ammo out now is pretty impressive. A double tap of hollow point 9's to the chest is going to be hard to walk through.

Dont be pulled into a certain brand, fire as many as you can and decide what feels right. Choose the caliper you can fire a lot to be accurate with, stopping power should just be a bonus to your accuracy.

/opinion

 

[Starscream]

What do you not like about the trigger safety?

The way it rubs my finger raw and just seems like a total inconvenience. It's something I'll grow accustomed to, but I would much rather have a mechanical safety than a "just make sure you're squeezing the trigger" safety. Should the event arise that some douchebag gets the gun from me I don't want it to be a point and click type of ordeal, I want him to fumble with trying to get it to fire so I can react. I hope that makes sense, I've had a little to drink with some friends

Any John Browning design (1911/1991 or Hi-Power) is a good thing. The man knew what he was doing. NB: The Hi-Power is probably the only 9m/m I like (I dislike the 9x19 on principle, based on after-action reports. It has a habit of overpenetration, "one-shot stop" record is abysmal, and the proliferation of high-capacity 9m/m autos has a lot to do with the "Spray and Pray" or "Accuracy by Volume" tendency happening out there. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice, but twice should be all you need.)

H&K USP - Again, well-executed. I just have short, stubby fingers, so the ergonomics (of a good design!) just don't work well for me.

Ditto Glock - the only one I really liked was the G36 single-stack subcompact .45ACP (and I've owned a G17 and a G19, oddly enough.)

H&K P7M9 - again and oddity - it's a 9m/m design I like (not the round, just the pistol.)

Colt Defender - if you can find one, it's not a bad piece at all. Probably about a Officer-sized auto, largely follows the 1911, but in a .40S&W. The .40 isn't a bad calibre - nice compromise (but I do prefer the .45ACP hands down. Anything the .40 can do, the .45 can do better. The JTC solids for the .40 aren't bad, but it will work much better - terminally - with either Winchester Silvertip, Federal Hydra-Shok, or Cor-Bon hollowpoints.)

The catch with autos is that the learning curve for malfunctions and suchlike tends to be a bit steeper - so you have to put more work into it. If you don't feel like it, and you're just going to use it for "nightstand defense" and want anyone in the house to be capable of using it, you may be better served getting a light revolver. If you get a .357 (Magnum or Maximum,) you have a decent little six-shooter that should be able to take any ammo that fits the chamber, gives decent performance (even using .38 Special LWC!) you don't have to worry about the safety, don't have to worry about jams, and if the round doesn't fire you just pull the trigger again. Single action if you take the time to thumb the hammer back, double action if you don't. Practise using .38 Special to start with (lighter recoil, better for learning proper handling,) and keep it handy with .357 rounds. Make sure you go into "second-stage practise" with .357s - but you can use .38s most of the time, they're cheaper and easier to learn handling with (and the .38 Special is already superior to the 9m/m in terminal ballistics. The Army accepted the .45ACP to replace the .38 Special because the 9x19 wasn't even comparable to the .38 Special. We use it now because "it's what everyone else uses" - but what is Popular is not always Right.)

If you really want to simplify home defense, then get a short 12ga pump (18.5" bbl) and load it with #4 buckshot rounds - 2-3/4" rounds OK. You'll get a nice scatter pattern, but the light buckshot won't penetrate exterior walls like, say, the 9m/m will (if you go with a pistol, I do recommend the use of Glaser Safety Slugs indoors if you can still find them - or soft-alloy hollowpoints like the Silvertip or the Hydra-Shok if not. Minimise risk to "innocent bystanders.")

I'm not a huge fan of most of the "new age" autos - mainly because I have a hard time getting used to a handful of plastic (I came up on the 1911. I'd much sooner fill my hand with carbon steel or CRES - and I want to know that I can whack someone upside the head with the thing and not expect any trouble other than a solid, meaty "thud!" when I do. Or shortly after.) This is not to stay that "plastic" pistols aren't well-made - quite a few of them are! And, I can pick up pretty much anything and print a happy group with it. I just happen to have preferences - kinda like we all have with tools. I have a broad selection of hammers (15 or so, various weights and heads) but I have one "favourite" hammer (16-oz claw hammer, fibreglas handle, Craftsman) that swings like an extension of my arm. I can count on the fingers of one nose how many times I've missed with that hammer in the last twenty years.

For me, a 1911 is the same way - aiming it is like pointing my finger. Where I point my finger is where the pill goes - unless I do something wrong. I don't have to think about it - it just happens. That's what I'm looking for in a pistol - I don't care if I can't drill a one-hole group at fifty yards in a modified Weaver or an Isocoles stance - but if I can dump a magazine at top speed into a dinner plate at fifteen yards, I'm good. Do a double-tap and both holes are an inch or so apart at 15 or so? Solid - that's what I want.

And, if I get along well enough with a design that I can repeat that performance rain, snow, s**t, or mud; hung over, hung out, or hung upside down; that's fine by me.

The short form of all this? Especially if you're going to carry it, make sure it's a design that fits your paws well and you don't have to think about. Make sure you can hit all of the controls by touch. Can you strip it and assemble it in the dark? Probably eventually - but that's not as necessary. But, if you don't have to grope or search for controls, if the trigger is in the right place for your finger, and if it feels like an extension of your hand, you've got the right sidearm - and don't let anyone tell you anything different. I'll put more faith in a .22 that handles well than in a .500 Smith that don't handle worth a damn - I'll put the bullets from that .22 where I need to!

You hit the nail on the head just like always. Thanks for coming to my humble little thread :thumbup: I'm going to be buying a pistol to meet all of my needs: home, self, and "castle" (Jeep, family, girl, belongings, etc.) protection. The pistol can do more for me than the shotgun in those respects.

Just to add, I think the gun has to feel right in your hand. If you have to adapt to the gun its not right for you, at least not your first gun.

A friend and I bought our first pistols at the same time. I was open to whatever and rented/fired a bunch of guns before I settled on the XD. My friend had brand X(I wont start a brand war here) drilled into his brain as the Only gun worth owning. So, he went to the store and picked out the brand X gun without a glance at anything else.

He also went for the biggest caliper wanting that 'stopping power' where as I went with the 9mm. Our first few weeks with the guns we went to the range, he was shooting 20rds at a time because of the cost. I was burning through 100s no problem on the cost of it.

Then we ran into the accuracy issues, his high power gun was all over the place. He couldnt hit the paper at 20yards the majority of the time. I was double tapping and laying nice groups day1 and only got better the more I shot. He kept telling me my 9mm was a waste and he has stopping power. Well if you cant hit the guy all that stopping power is just wizzing by the target. You miss that first .45 shot the other guy pulls a 9mm and tags you Anywhere. You may not go down but your not aiming any better for a follow up shot leaving you a sitting duck for a 17rd barrage of 9's.

He also ran into Tons of problems with the pistol failing to feed, the slid locking open or not locking. It was all because it didnt fit his hand properly the gun functioned perfectly fine. Im sure he could have resolved that with practice. However, practice cost a lot more because of the caliper he went with.

Bottom line, my 9mm may be a poor choice for killing a human compared to a .45. I of course hope to never need to shoot someone but I shoot a lot of paper. If pressed, my 18rds of 9's are going to hit someone accurate, fast and reliable. Compared to my friend who if pressed will hope the sight of the gun is enough to save his life. Plus, the hollow point ammo out now is pretty impressive. A double tap of hollow point 9's to the chest is going to be hard to walk through.

Dont be pulled into a certain brand, fire as many as you can and decide what feels right. Choose the caliper you can fire a lot to be accurate with, stopping power should just be a bonus to your accuracy.

/opinion

Again, I totally agree.




Decisions, decisions...

 

[Ironmen77]

I like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Model_4506

 

[WB9YZU]

I realize you were talking about stopping power, but did you mean "Caliber"

Choosing that beginner gun is like buying a set of starter Skis.

You want one that works for you, but doesn't break the bank. I used to haunt the range until fuel went out of sight, then not so much. I rented a lot of Pistols of all different flavors to see what I could afford to shoot, what felt good, and what I could afford. I asked a lot of questions of the Range operator to see what his likes and dislikes were.

I bought a 9mm because as I was in a league at the time, I knew I would be going through rounds. I wanted something inexpensive, but durable, easy to operate and to clean. The Ruger 89DC I bought has met those criteria in spades. I've let other people shoot the gun, and some folks like it, and some folks think the trigger is too stiff. To each their own.

IIRC, 9mm is also a standard Police issue caliber.

Training is an important aspect to this discussion as you could have the best gun in the world and fail to hit the target. Find a Civilian Combat course in your area, or something like it to simulate home protection scenarios. Find out precisely what the gun laws in your neck of the woods are, and what would happen if you were to discharge your fire arm in a home protection scenario.

 

[5-90]

IIRC, 9mm is also a standard Police issue caliber.

It was, but departments are trending toward the .40S&W of late (started with the FBI, IIRC - although HRT still sticks with .45ACP - again, IIRC.)

"What is Popular is not always Right" - the US Armed Forces uses the 9x19 because the rest of NATO uses it, and they refused to move up to something more useful (although the 9x19 is a bit more powerful than the 9x18 Makarov - more or less standard ComBloc for a while.)

But, if the 9m/m is so damned efficient, why are there so many iterations? Let's see - I probably don't even remember them all, but here are the 9m/m auto calibres I do recall:
9x17 (.380ACP. Designed for work against dogs and small threats, IIRC.)
9x18 (9m/m Makarov)
9x19 (9m/m Luger or 9m/m Parabellum.)
9x21
9x23
9x25

The latter three started out as wildcat loadings to "make Major" in IPSC competition - because, apparently, either people didn't feel up to handling the .45ACP (which isn't that bad to shoot - I can dump a full mag downrange with reasonable accuracy, and the pistol looks like it's vibrating in my hand...) and there are more "tuner" parts available for the 1911 et al (1911A1, 1991A1, Commander, Officer, SVI 2001, ...) than pretty much any other pistol out there. The 1911 is like a Harley - you can, with a little bit of looking, build one entirely out of aftermarket parts! And have it be at least as good as most factory offerings (it takes a fair bit of work to equal a high-end Kimber or a Les Baer, but it's doable.)

Yes, if you want to get pedantic, you can include the .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .357 Maximum as being "in the 9m/m persuasion" - but I'd consider all of those superior to pretty much any 9m/m auto loading - both in terminal ballistics, and in general platform quality.

The various PDs probably went to the 9m/m for the "Accuracy by Volume" tendency as I mentioned before - but if you're not going to hit your target with two rounds, throwing 17 at it won't do much better. cf: Amadou Diallo - 41 shots fired, 19 hits, three cops, contact range. If someone working for me shot that abysmally, I'd relieve them of their sidearm until I was happy with their retraining. Go to hand-to-hand for a while...

(Yes, I know about the effects of physical/psychological stress on frangible physical skills. That's why stress should be induced in training - if you want to find out how good you are, try this: Lay your sidearm down on the firing point (select one for fifteen yards.) Do twenty press-ups, run flat-out 100 yards out and back, and do another ten press-ups. Then, pick up your sidearm and shoot for record.

(Repeat until you're happy with the results. Don't fire more than, say, three double-taps at a time. You won't get "competition accurate" doing this, but you can make it to "combat accurate" and your confidence will skyrocket.

(Yep, I'm a pure bas***d as a trainer. The confidence of my trainees is terribly high. I see no reason to discontinue the practise.)

This is why terminal ballistic performance is so important in a defensive sidearm - if it comes down to SHTF, you're not going to be shooting like you're point-shooting at a range. You're going to be under a phenomenal amount of stress (the idea behind the running and the press-ups is to simulate the effect of adrenaline upon your system and co-ordination.) If you can put two rounds steel on target, land them all of about a couple of inches apart, and do that every damned time, you're going to be shooting better than probably 70-75% of the boys in blue out there. Most of them practise point-shooting, but stress isn't simulated in their training except for maybe the "Hogan's Alley" exercise in most academies.

Sorry - Hogan's Alley should be done a minimum of once per week, after a half-mile run, and done with any duty weapon available to you - sidearm, patrol carbine, rifle, shotty, whatever. If you might carry a SMG on duty, include that in your rotation.

Does this sound excessive? Most people would think so. But, if your life (or the lives of others) is going to depend on your skill with firearms, you'd better take every opportunity to improve that skill you can find!

 

[WB9YZU]

But, if the 9m/m is so damned efficient, why are there so many iterations?

I never said it was efficient, I said that 9mm was cheaper for me to use because, at the time, I went though 100 to 150 rounds a week.

Jon, I agree with most of what you are saying about training except this important missing peice of common sense; Most home owners, unless they are also involved in a criminal enterprise, will almost never need to use their gun for home defense. You shoot to protect people, not property.

When I recomended training, the training I was thinking of, covers more of what basic Police pistol skills and the legal aspects of using a gun in a home defense scenerio.