HANDGUNS for self defense...

5-90 said:
This should get interesting...

5-90

No, it will not get interesting. Some will quoute fiction and claim it to be real. Me... when you die, you feed worms. Prove otherwise, and I may be interested. Fairy tales, no matter how old, or how many believe them does not make it fact. IMHO, of course. :)
 
Yah - but it's the quoted fiction that becomes interesting.

My semi-belief is, in its own way, based upon empirical observation. Life after death? I consider it a possibility - for much the same reason.

Granted, I'm working an awful lot with probabilities for the former, but there are entirely too many strange things to see to think that they all "just happened."

Apart from that, I've read most religious texts, and consider them to be, in the main, fiction - until I can scare up some proof otherwise.

If free will is a mistake, then I shouldn't be. I have the problem (curse?) of thinking about things in depth - which doesn't make me a good religious person. They ask for too much to be accepted upon blind faith - and I don't have any.

I don't have any trouble with the idea of God - just with the idea of religion. Does this make me a bad person, a sinner, or just a pain in Jerry Falwell's a$$?

5-90
 
ECKSJAY said:
I love the conversations that this thread has generated.

Sure has separated the men from the e-SEALs.

No doubt. The e-seals, e-speacial foreces, e-bad-asses are out in force. Better than TV. :)
 
The nieghbors look at my Jeeps and sometimes ask, is four wheel drive really necessary. I don´t even try to tell them why, they arent gonna listen anyway. Ì just say, I´m styling and grin at them.
15 foot dike, a half mile from the house, dig down a few feet in the garden and it´s nothing but sand, look up one valley and see the major runoff from one rather large watershed and up another and see the main watershed for about 1/3 rd of the country. Take a look around and notice everything west requires a bridge, everything north needs a bridge, three major roads out, in the other two directions, not counting the forest and field roads. Oh and by the way, a rather substantial military presence just up the road (east and south). Plutonium reprocessing faciltiy, 4 miles away (east).` Predominanat wind direction is East (north east), so South it is, two roads out, that are actually on a flood plan going up river, then hills enough (after about 6-7 miles) to get out of the valley. The shortest distance, to high ground, is through a bottleneck and right past the plutonium reprocessing plant.
If I was to try and educate them, they´d look at me like I was nuts.
I keep a good set of maps and a compass in the house. keep the top half of the gas tank full, usually park nose out. Have a collection of gang boxes and duffel bags and waterproof liners. Enough camping gear to stay comfortable for a good long spell.
You can three monkey the situation, see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil or play Ostrich and hid your eyes, or hopefully, maybe waste a little time and energy, preparing for the worst, while hoping for the best.
If I leave in a hurry, the chain saw, a collection of pioneer tools and probably, the subject of this thread is going with me. Along with as much usefull junk, as I can quickly throw in the trailer.
Seems to me, to be a reasonable responce, to a possible threat. Doesn´t require any exotic training or special (forces, military or police) backgound. Just awareness of the possible threat and reasonable precautions.
Plan for the worse and hope for the best, is about all anybody can do. Try to use your brain and have a plan, before the bad stuff happens.
 
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8Mud said:
15 foot dike, a half mile from the house

That's a huge b***h!

tdeuce4.jpg
 
I like my Sig 229 .357sig. I can shoot well with it and love to carry it. Does it mean I'm parinoid if I carry two clips with the gun and then have access to two more in my vehicle and house? ;)

If your serious about protecting your home, pratice clearing it, now where the spots are you could fall back to for ammo, weapons, phone support. I can clear my place(small apartment) pretty quickly. Having a gun near the door might be a good idea, stop them at the front if possible. Oh and Surfire flashlights rock and can be just as usful as a gun. They will blind someone in the dark for a few seconds, enough to make a difference. They even have sweet ones with a aluminum bezel on it that has teeth to be used as a weapon. Tazer guns seems to work well, according to the local sheriff's.

Shotguns already been mentioned and you can get less then lethal rounds for it. Beanbags, pepper spray rounds, rubber bullets.

As for hangun calibers, any will work if you can shoot them. I like my .357sig, power speed capacity, penetration and it's fun to shoot. I've shot 9mm,.40,.45 and I really wouldn't want to get hit witheither.

Guns I've shot a few. Already mentioned I really like my SIG. Shot a glcok and they seem like a decent gun but I don't like how the gun feels. Walterh makes a nice gun now or SW makes a nice one, but if they get dirty the realibity goes to crap. 300 rounds and no cleaning and it was jamming, FTF, every few rounds. The gun feeld pretty good but seems a little thin and rubs the wrong way. Ruger semi was an ok gun but not real impressed. Kimber 1911, didn't like the gun. Hate the grip safety, just feel wrong, gun bites my hands, 7 rounds suck, pretty accurate though. HK USP, very nice guns. I love how these feel and shoot. Very accurate and reliable. Not quite as accurate as my SIG but really dang close. And my sig does it all. Springfiel aslo makes a nice looking semi, the XD series. I haven't shot iut but it seem to feel good and lots of guys like them. Go try out a bunch and see what fits and you like. Everyone that has shot my sig like it, doesn't seem to matter hand size, I've got smaller hands.

and lastly it doesn't matter what you have if you can hit your target at 14 feet, you suck. pratice pratice pratice.

Every summer gets crazy in Rapid. Last summer we had a guy get beat with a 2x4 with an nail(walking down the wrong street the attackers said) a kid that was attempting to rob and elderly man got his ass wupped, knife taken away and killed with it, several drive by shooting, girl stabed in Taco Bell, anothe guy knifed for no reason, a several more retarted acts of violence, oh and my place was also broken into, buddies place broken into(while they were home)-guy got onto their second floor deck. I guess uf you don't like it or see the point that fine, I'm still gonna carry.
 
Weasel said:
I like my Sig 229 .357sig. I can shoot well with it and love to carry it. Does it mean I'm parinoid if I carry two clips with the gun and then have access to two more in my vehicle and house? ;)
I call it well-planned. ;)
If your serious about protecting your home, pratice clearing it, now where the spots are you could fall back to for ammo, weapons, phone support. I can clear my place(small apartment) pretty quickly.
I could clear mine quickly as well, but I invite you to consider why cops don't enter buildings alone. At least two guns and four eyes cover a lot better than one and two. Also, in the same school of thought, (and I talked to Rabbi about this last night) think about why hostage-takers are so successful in standoffs. It's because they stay put and barricade themselves. Very few situations can really warrant leaving the security of a well-barricaded room. Hell, having the family shepherded to the far side of the bed from the bedroom door, shotgun lying across the bed pointed at the door, speakerphone dialed to 911 or phone off the hook (out of hands) doing the same, bulletproof vest slipped on quickly, and head ducked low will be the best course of action one can take. Authoritive voicing telling intruders, attackers, or would-be attackers to keep away from the room certainly doesn't hurt. Just be sure to tell the call-taker at the 911 center that the homeowner is armed and will fire in self-defense...so have them caution their officers to properly and carefully identify themselves. ;) If they're carrying the stereo, let them be. Defend only life, not property. Goes without saying that one can be easily replaced while the other cannot.

Also another course of action would be to have an attorney on retainer or at least used as a consultant PRIOR TO defending yourself(selves). Get their advice and take their suggestions. That's what they get paid to do. Don't rely on the cousin, brother, family friend who is a lawyer in another state. Retain one in your OWN state who is up to snuff on self-defense laws and ask questions.

On a related note, institutions such as LFI, FAS, etc provide expert witness testimony to alumni in the event that such a case goes to court. These instructors remember their students and have curriculum documented with your attendance...and can testify that you were trained to handle given situations with proper use of force.

As I have said before...marksmanship is only part of the equation. You may have lived, but you have to be able to handle the mental/legal shitstorm that comes afterward.
 
Well I'm lucky to be resiting in sates such as MT and SD. Few summers ago in Billings, MT the police responded to a fatal shooting, turns out so guy tried to break into and enter a home owen by and eldery lady, she blast with with a .357mag and killed him. Cops took her statment and left, never even arrested her.

Basicly same thing happened in SD about a year ago. The legal stuff can definatly bite you in the butt if your not careful.

On the clearing, I'm not talking swat syle in under ten seconds, but a least be very familar were everything is at. Where someone could hit, what furniture you can use to move with, where cords are, which spots require speed cover and which don't. Nice thing about your palce is you can know the layout, ect before hand. LE and Military don't always have that luxury when storming a area.
 
Weasel said:
Well I'm lucky to be resiting in sates such as MT and SD. Few summers ago in Billings, MT the police responded to a fatal shooting, turns out so guy tried to break into and enter a home owen by and eldery lady, she blast with with a .357mag and killed him. Cops took her statment and left, never even arrested her.
We go by the 'reasonable person' standard that views self-defense on a case by case basis (See also: People v. Goetz). While you do have a right to defend your 'property', it's not feasible or reasonable to do so. The case of a little old lady with a .357 shooting and killing an intruder is viewed differently than a 6'6" linebacker with a 12ga shooting a 90lb crackhead who is making off with the good China. PERSONALLY I just want you out of my f***ing home while keeping my family and myself intact. Shots fired means testimony and paperwork. Shooting is the last resort.

On the clearing, I'm not talking swat syle in under ten seconds, but a least be very familar were everything is at. Where someone could hit, what furniture you can use to move with, where cords are, which spots require speed cover and which don't. Nice thing about your palce is you can know the layout, ect before hand. LE and Military don't always have that luxury when storming a area.
I know what you mean. To clarify my point...you don't know where THEY are if you're moving around. A stationary cover point like the bedroom scenario I mentioned hold a tactical advantage over the intruders. They sacrifice security for their mobility. Same reason we dug perimeter foxholes in the Army. ;)
 
Glenn said:
Who is god? What right does he give me? I wanna see him, and talk to him. Oh, thats right.... he does not realyy exist. If I do not believe in that fiction, do I not have a right to own guns?

Your beliefe in fairy tails has absolutely nothing to do with my guns. Unless you beleive Bambi to be the almighty word?
T'ain't me, Glenn. The old boys who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights believed that the rights they enumerated in the BOR were "granted" to us by God. That's why they were careful to word the BOR in a way that "affirmed" (implying pre-existing rights) rather than "granted" the rights.

Doesn't matter a bit if you or I or anyone on this forum believe in God or not. The BOR is worded the way it is because THEY believed in God. That's not theology or religion, that's simple historical fact.
 
ECKSJAY said:
I know what you mean. To clarify my point...you don't know where THEY are if you're moving around. A stationary cover point like the bedroom scenario I mentioned hold a tactical advantage over the intruders. They sacrifice security for their mobility. Same reason we dug perimeter foxholes in the Army. ;)

Oh isee what your saying, if your in the house and they come, yeah I'm not moving around either, let come. I was thinking more along the lines as I've come home a few nights to the front door hanging wide open.
 
Weasel said:
I was thinking more along the lines as I've come home a few nights to the front door hanging wide open.

Oh fun.

With my background as an LEO I'd be calling for the guys who get paid to go inside. ;) I'm patient, I'll wait. I might even ask nicely for them to bring a dog...or two. :D
 
Weasel said:
Oh isee what your saying, if your in the house and they come, yeah I'm not moving around either, let come. I was thinking more along the lines as I've come home a few nights to the front door hanging wide open.
If you come home and find the front door open, don't go in. Stay outside and call the police.

In all probability the "castle doctrine" won't protect you if you're safely outside, and choose to enter and then encounter one or more bad guys. You might (or might not) prevail in the ensuing encounter, but it would likely not be ruled a "good shoot" because you weren't defending your life, you were on the offensive. You can't leave a safe position/location to enter a dangerous position/location and then claim you had to defend yourself because you feared for your life.

An exception to the above would be if you know or think that your wife and/or children should be in the house. Lethal force is generally justifiable in protection of others as well as yourself, so entering to check on your family would probably justify leaving the safety of the outdoors. If you live alone -- stay outside and let the police clear the house.
 
ECKSJAY said:
Absolutely false. Drugged, drunk, adrenaline-rushed, or very large individuals tend to be resistant to bullets. This often leads to long, drawn out fights that end in that person bleeding out rather than being neutralized immediately. Not sure what magazine you read, but I suggest reading a copy of The Ayoob Files. Torn down investigations into police and civilian shootings. There's almost never any such thing as a 'one shot stop'. About half of the rounds fired in a high-stress situation miss their intended target. Factors like tunnel-vision and focus on the attacker's weapon (rather than center mass), as well as MOVING targets contribute greatly to those misses. Often does not matter whether it's a revolver, single-action auto, double-action auto, or even a shotgun. NO TWO INSTANCES ARE THE SAME. There are constant variables that are involved and an individual should train for as many of them as possible.


I agree 100%. In my shooting, the guy was drunk, adrenaline-rushed and large (6'3 and 230 lbs). Pepper (O.C.) spray'd him, kicked and knocked him down, all while he came at me with a knife. Once I pulled my head outta my arse, I shot. First two had no effect, next 3 phased him a bit but he kept coming, final was a head shot. 4 of the 6 shots were intended to be center of mass, but I would later learn they hit the lower abdomen where he held the knife in his hand, near his hip (focusing on the threat indeed). Shot 5 was in the left pectoral.

Most people would at least drop as a result of the shock of being shot after the first two shots, but drugs or alcohol take that psychological reaction out of the equasion.
 
Weasel said:
Oh isee what your saying, if your in the house and they come, yeah I'm not moving around either, let come. I was thinking more along the lines as I've come home a few nights to the front door hanging wide open.
I came home from work and noticed the front door hanging open (when I lived in L.A.), checked out the street and driveway for the girlfriends (and other friends) cars, just parked it where I could see three sides of my bungalow and watched for a good long while. Counted the noses of my dogs, just to see if everybody was present and accounted for. I was there after the fact, they´d cleaned me out. My plan, was if they came out, with there arms full of my sterio and TV, I was gonna run them around my 1/2 acre plot a few times, with my pick up truck.
Funny, learned a lesson that day, that was almost worth the price of my junk. They had chummed Oscor Myer weaners all the way from the front gate, to the front door and back again, I found a dozen empty packages. I had a pack of hunting dogs, that would usually bite for fun and did a pretty good job of watching the property. Sad part of the whole thing was, the weaners, were probably worth as much as my junky sterio and TV.
Had words with a guy about trying to push herion to my little brother and his friends. Guy sure wasn´t your typical drug dealer, clean cut, wore a sports coat. When I went to his place to talk, he introduced me to his cheerleader wife and two daughters. He politely told me to mind my own business.
i don´t usually carry, almost never with one in the chamber and the pistol on half XXXX. Guy came at me from the rear, looked over my shoulder and saw the buck knife about five feet from my kidneys, grabbed the Browning and shot right through the bottom of the shoulder holster three times, he was hit in the guts, the solar plexes and the sternum. Went down hard and never took another breath. 127 grain, 9MM FMJ´s, just because that´s what the pistol worked best with.
You can argue diety all you want to, but one, I almost never carry, I never carry with one in the barrel and the trigger half cocked and to tell you the truth, don´t even remember, cocking the hammer. And two, the Browning was sure there when I needed it.
Don´t really know, if the knife guy and the dealer were connected, the story was, two of his friends had put him up to it, because they didin´t like my looks. Felt bad, the knife guy, was supposed to be, borderline retarded.
Funny, the dealer, was shot through both ass cheeks a couple of weeks later, with a 30/06. I´ve never owned a 30/06.
I´m not gonna write a book, but the point is, my instincts, have most ways, worked out for me. After the fact, my instinctual responses, may seem strange, but they have worked. Even in the military, I got some strange looks, because my way, wasn´t what was expected and was nothing like what the others would do.
Have a plan, but trust your instincts. If something is screaming in your head, to run duck and hide, do it.
 
Arguably this is the most interesting thread I have seen yet. The depth of experience from our members is tremendous. As for the original question of recommended firearms. The 1911 and/or it's varients is hard to beat. Mine is a Springfield. The 12 gauge pump is my long weapon, mine is a Mossberg which was a gift from my dad at the age of 10 and modified to allow for close-in use.

The key (as so well put by others) is planning, practice and proficiency. A couple of trips to the shooting range will not put you in a position to defend yourself. If the bottom falls out and you have to stop to think about what to do , you are in serious hurt. Find a good weapons training facility...one that is SERIOUS about the job. Personal security goes far beyond pulling a trigger.
 
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