Governor Schwarzenegger on Roadless Areas

Ed A. Stevens said:
It's time for some sort of lobby effort to make Arnold wake up to motorized recreation as a revenue source and responsible use of public lands (including motorized trail adoptions to prevent the roadless-rule decommissioning).

You guy's might also mention to your clubs that the CBD is opening an office in 29-Palms (there goes the neighborhood, right next to Johnson Valley). Something to watch with respect to local political issues and influence (look for $$$$ going into local government as a way to direct policy, and make locals aware to solidify their pro-motor connections in local government).


I've been telling people this for years.

Money talks.

One of the best uses for 4wd club funds is lobbying efforts and/or donations to fence-sitting politicians.

Alas, clubs like putting on picnics and giving toys to tots more than they like keeping trails open.

It's time to play hard-ball, folks. Feel good events just don't cut it anymore.

CRASH
 
karstic said:
Doesn't CA4WDC and CORVA do this? If not where do my dues go?


One of the two organizations has a nice building (I read about it now and then, between the pissing and moaning about funds and the cost of holding events in NorCal). The other organization has volunteer officers sitting on the Desert Advisory Committee, on the Motorized Off-Highway Vehicle Recreation Council, and very active Land Use Representation that reaches all forms of off-pavement motorized recreation (including officers in the other organization's leadership).

I have never been to the office of one of the two organizations, and I have been told it's likely I would find the gate closed and locked. When visiting the other organization's office I walked in without an appointment and asked the President a question, and he called a person who provided an answer immediately, and then walked me over to meet with the trail maps illustrator the club funded in cooperation with the state. I walked out with a few bundles of literature for handouts and an impression of action, and reassurance that there are effective activists on our side of difficult issues.

Quite a difference.

One issue to remember is the California League of Off Road Voters (CLORV) is the political action organization for our cause, as the non-profit status of most of our clubs and organizations prevents them for taking a visible stance on political issues.
 
karstic said:
Especially with gas at $2.50/gal=more sales tax revenue. IIRC a portion of CA fuel taxes also goes to OHV program in California.

IIRC, gas tax is a flat-rate 18c/gallon with an additional 14c/gallon achieved in air quality non-attainment areas; it's not a percentage of the fuel cost, though. There's another 18c on top of that for federal taxes, but again not a percentage (source: CA Energy Commission). In a way this is a good thing, since it eliminates any incentive for the government to manipulate supply in order to artifically inflate the price of fuel to collect more tax.
 
CRASH said:
I've been telling people this for years.

Money talks.

One of the best uses for 4wd club funds is lobbying efforts and/or donations to fence-sitting politicians.

Alas, clubs like putting on picnics and giving toys to tots more than they like keeping trails open.

It's time to play hard-ball, folks. Feel good events just don't cut it anymore.

CRASH

My local club hosts an annual event, Fright Night, on Miller Jeep trail. We donate proceeds to both Cal4W and Corva. If pressed, few in the club will claim to be "activists", but given the demographics of the club, a majority are "very concerned", and participation in clean ups and adopt a trail work is high. The activisim level is changing right now...

I'm working on my personal activism, but I have a few concerns from what I've seen... keep in mind here that I'm new to 4 wheeling, and I did dirt bikes for only a very short period as a kid.

Crash, you found the LAT article, can you point out to me what benefit the quote attributed to the CAL4W guy has to keeping trails open? I only ask because I'm seeking enlightenment.

Sure, journalistic slant, the LAT predisposition, etc, etc; but, look at how easy it is for them to make out a bad guy. And, you gotta admit at some level that regardless of the aforementioned factors, it's just too damn easy for a reporter to find the level of quote material they do with us... even our representatives!

I had an interesting discussion with Ed Waldhiem (CORVA Pres) and Terry Work at our club meeting month before last. I had been learning about the different orgs, and a little about the fight for access and land use, and one thing kept coming back to me. Where are our lawyers and legal infrasturcture? How come they are not the ONLY ones doing the talking?

I had to ask Ed if he'd ever heard of the Department of Boating and Waterways... "Huh?' was the response. This endavor needs to take more than just a few lessons from them, as painful as that outcome will be.

NEWS FLASH: CORVA has just hired a "full time" attorney to work issues in Sacto.

I think that's great, and not to be negative, but the realist me says thats pathetic. The opposition has had them ENGRAINED in their efforts since the beginning of the Sierra Club.

I had a DBW Commissioner tell me about how he's monitored the off road efforts over the years... he used to ride dirt bikes. The only thing I'll convey here is his comparison: "Look at what we have (boaters), look at what they have"; "Look at what we had to do with Jet SKi's, for off roaders it'll never happen".

We need a DBW for off road issues in California. Is it too late?

--ron
 
Did anyone see page A25 of the LA Times on Sunday? I think Truckhaven is going to be a prime place for tresspassing issues, and alot sooner than we think.

--ron[/QUOTE]

I was out in that area last weekend..... 5 new homes on N.Marina (all ontop of each other) are already being sided & the streets & h2o lines are getting an upgrade that place is exploding, maybe all the Cal. organizations should pitch in & buy afew thousand acres.....
See Ya !
Curt (aka Xtreme XJ)
 
You are correct. We have pathetic legal representation. DBW is a state agency that advocates for boating.

What are teh odds we will ever get such an agency advocating for off-highway travel? I would say exactly "zero".

As we have seen, the state can barely be trusted with green sticker funds......

A side note regarding the effectiveness of enviro orgs in the legal arena. A senior attorney I worked with at a water regulatort agency (SWRCB) was a not just a Sierra Club member, but it's legal counsel on some matters. He got away with it because he said he recused himself on cases that came before our board in which the SC was involved. In practicality, that was impossible because he hired and supervised all staff attorneys. Do you think he ever hired a new attorney that was not of his political ilk? I knew of not one.

Newsflash: your esteemed governor has just put a new member on the SWRCB: New Water Boardmember, Gerald “Jerry” Secundy of Pasadena (left), is sworn into office ......Secundy is a member of the Sierra Club, Common Cause and the American Civil Liberties Union.

CRASH

Captain Ron said:
My local club hosts an annual event, Fright Night, on Miller Jeep trail. We donate proceeds to both Cal4W and Corva. If pressed, few in the club will claim to be "activists", but given the demographics of the club, a majority are "very concerned", and participation in clean ups and adopt a trail work is high. The activisim level is changing right now...

I'm working on my personal activism, but I have a few concerns from what I've seen... keep in mind here that I'm new to 4 wheeling, and I did dirt bikes for only a very short period as a kid.

Crash, you found the LAT article, can you point out to me what benefit the quote attributed to the CAL4W guy has to keeping trails open? I only ask because I'm seeking enlightenment.

Sure, journalistic slant, the LAT predisposition, etc, etc; but, look at how easy it is for them to make out a bad guy. And, you gotta admit at some level that regardless of the aforementioned factors, it's just too damn easy for a reporter to find the level of quote material they do with us... even our representatives!

I had an interesting discussion with Ed Waldhiem (CORVA Pres) and Terry Work at our club meeting month before last. I had been learning about the different orgs, and a little about the fight for access and land use, and one thing kept coming back to me. Where are our lawyers and legal infrasturcture? How come they are not the ONLY ones doing the talking?

I had to ask Ed if he'd ever heard of the Department of Boating and Waterways... "Huh?' was the response. This endavor needs to take more than just a few lessons from them, as painful as that outcome will be.

NEWS FLASH: CORVA has just hired a "full time" attorney to work issues in Sacto.

I think that's great, and not to be negative, but the realist me says thats pathetic. The opposition has had them ENGRAINED in their efforts since the beginning of the Sierra Club.

I had a DBW Commissioner tell me about how he's monitored the off road efforts over the years... he used to ride dirt bikes. The only thing I'll convey here is his comparison: "Look at what we have (boaters), look at what they have"; "Look at what we had to do with Jet SKi's, for off roaders it'll never happen".

We need a DBW for off road issues in California. Is it too late?

--ron
 
Captain Ron said:


I had an interesting discussion with Ed Waldhiem (CORVA Pres) and Terry Work at our club meeting month before last. I had been learning about the different orgs, and a little about the fight for access and land use, and one thing kept coming back to me. Where are our lawyers and legal infrasturcture? How come they are not the ONLY ones doing the talking?

...

NEWS FLASH: CORVA has just hired a "full time" attorney to work issues in Sacto.

I think that's great, and not to be negative, but the realist me says thats pathetic. The opposition has had them ENGRAINED in their efforts since the beginning of the Sierra Club.

I had a DBW Commissioner tell me about how he's monitored the off road efforts over the years... he used to ride dirt bikes. The only thing I'll convey here is his comparison: "Look at what we have (boaters), look at what they have"; "Look at what we had to do with Jet SKi's, for off roaders it'll never happen".

We need a DBW for off road issues in California. Is it too late?

--ron




It's never too late.

Consider the only funded representation positions the 4x4 community has ever had were half-time volunteers for land use, and these positions were cut back to make funds available for social events. Does it make you wonder where the priorities are (I did not say were, but where they are today)?

One reason we do not read our Legal Representation quoted in the paper is our Officers have not learned to shut up on potentially damaging issues, and leave the comments to the Legal folks (representation we would have to pay for the quote services). The paper asks for a comment on some nit-wit on a quad or 4x4 pick-up tearing up someone’s property, and our leaders comment that it's wrong and giving out sport a bad name (leading a reader to believe these nit-wits represent our sport).

We need to take care and distance our sport from these folks, by reinforcing the fact these nit-wits do not represent off-road sport in our comments, and refer comment on legal issues to the legal representatives. The result would be more effective (IMO) just like Sierra Club comments when a hiker does something illegal (and they reinforce the accused hiking nit-wit is not representing the SC and claim no comment on the legal aspects of the topic).

NASCAR never claimed moonshiners were part of their sport, and the NHRA does not comment that illegal street racers are the bad side of their sport, just like the AMA does not have to deflect claims that the Hells Angels represent motorcycling enthusiasts, and yet when some nit-wit is found driving in a closed watershed, mud pit or designated Wilderness we comment the practice is unacceptable for our sport (h#ll, it is not our spot, and leave it at that).

Ninety-nine percent of off-road recreation enthusiasts are folks that drive dirt roads to responsibly camp, fish, make it into the hiking trailhead, and picnic (the rockcrawlers like us are part of this responsible 99%), but the media only writes about the one percent fringe nit-wit factor our officers comment on when asked for quotes (again, we would be better served limiting comments to "they are not part of our sport".)

Ron, they used to blame money on all our problems with representation.

In the past few years I watched the American Sand Association solicit and generate funds specific to a cause, to hire Legal representation and Biologists to reopen the ISDRA CBD litigated closures (considered impossible by the older groups due to "other" budget priorities). This fundraising effort was accomplished without sacrificing funds for other causes, or the older organizations. The experience proves, given a good cause, that the OHV enthusiast pool for Land Use dollars is not a zero-sum equation (that is ASA funds did not deplete BRC, CORVA, or CAL4, or AMA, or any other OHV recreation oriented organization's potential funding pool). The money is there, enough to fund multiple methods to further our cause, although we still have to get past a narrow focus paradigm.

This year a few of our Activist groups got together, and approached other similar groups to fund a common account to retain an Attorney Firm who is an expert on ESA issues (issues like that driving the NEMO, WEMO, ISDRA plan, and local Forest Plan Revision motorized use closures). The concept is a great idea to pool funding and build a large trust to unite and fight legal challenges facing our sport, except the buy-in quoted was too high for most organizations and the communicated legal specialty focus was too narrow (it ignores legal support for efforts to protect RS2477 and public easement right of way challenges).

Many members of smaller groups, groups who do not face immediate and obvious ESA challenges, turned the concept down without much consideration. If the activists had offered a wider focus for the legal representation, and assurances that the pool funding for non ESA challenge efforts would be granted equal attention, then the concept would have been better received (and probably visibly and loudly supported).

Things are getting better, but we have a long way to go.
 
Ed if I ever meet you in person let me shake your hand and buy you a beer :cheers:
 
Thanks, both CRASH and Ed.

I understand the DBW is a state agency, I also understand that it's mandate is one that fits the off road access and land use issues here to a capital "T".

Interesting... take a look at the terminology used CA code sec 68-68.2 ..."recreational boating trails"...

Every state agency began with a mandate from the Legislature, they did not all exsist at the inception of the CA state constitution. Wishful thinking perhaps, but something needs to change in basic strategy.

I'll be taking more time to get absorbed in the issues.

--ron
 
More FYI:

BLUERIBBON ON ROADLESS



On May 5, the Final Rule on management of our National Forest System “Roadless Areas” was released. Subsequent news stories totally misrepresented the intent of the Rule or what it could accomplish. The stories postulated that the Rule would stimulate road-building and timber harvest in these relatively undeveloped areas. In describing these areas, they chose to ignore that our Roadless Areas are where a significant amount of recreation occurs in our National Forests, the importance of that recreation, and how it is crucial that these areas be actively managed to provide for forest health, access and diverse recreation opportunities.



The Rule establishes guidelines and an ambitious time frame under which the governor of each state with Roadless Areas can submit a petition to the Forest Service proposing to change how each of these areas is now managed. The stakes for the recreation community are high. For example in Idaho, 45% of national forest lands are in inventoried roadless areas, and these areas provide significant opportunities for motorized recreation. The OHV community isn’t the only group with a dog in this fight. Indeed, the majority of trail based recreation enjoyed by the American public is in “roadless” areas.



In the next 18 months, a governor must decide whether or not to submit a petition for change. For those choosing to submit a petition, they must conduct some rational process leading to final submittal to the Secretary of Agriculture on the ambitious time frame required. Any such decisions are likely to be highly controversial, and subject to the disinformation that has characterized the public discussion so far. Both could be costly, both in dollars and political capital that a governor could spend to get the job done.



The rule leaves to each affected State’s discretion the process by which a petition is crafted. It does specify that a petition must contain:



Location and description of the lands and how they are managed now.
Purpose and need for change.
Relation of the area’s current management to local and state land conservation policies now in place.
How fish and wildlife would be affected.
A description of how the public was involved in developing the petition.
A commitment that the state will participate in subsequent rulemaking as a cooperating agency.


After the petition is submitted, the Secretary has 180 days to accept or decline the petition. The rule provides for the creation of a national advisory committee to assist in evaluating the petitions. The committee will also provide advice and recommendations to the Secretary on any state specific rulemaking.



The committee will consist of 12 members appointed by the Secretary of Agriculture, “..composed of a balanced group of representatives of diverse national organizations who can provide insights into the major contemporary issues associated with the conservation and management of inventoried roadless areas…Collectively, the members should represent a diversity of organizations and perspectives.”



After a petition is accepted, the Forest Service will begin rulemaking to address the petition. This rulemaking process will consider the environmental effects of the proposed rule in compliance with NEPA. Put in the context of other Forest Service planning efforts, the petition may be analogous to a proposed action and the subsequent process will presumably have a full range of alternatives with national public involvement at the appropriate levels. The subsequent decision by the Secretary will reflect this decisionmaking process, and could be different from the petition. However, despite many inquiries from states and affected interest groups, the Forest Service and Department of Agriculture have been conspicuously vague in describing the process that will be used in evaluating and finalizing any petitions submitted under the Rule.



This is a powerful opportunity for the recreation community to join together and tell our story: the importance of recreation in our Roadless Areas, access to our national forests, and active management of those lands. The story thus far has spun way off this track. The recreation community has a significant challenge ahead.



Following are some thoughts on how recreation groups at the state level could proceed:



· Networking with all the recreation groups that use these roadless areas will be more important than ever.

· Become informed on all the Roadless Areas in the state, their recreation resources, and assemble a package of the highlights in each. A good place to start is the Forest Service’s Roadless web site: http://www.fs.fed.us

· Establish a close relationship with officials engaged in the petition decisionmaking and process.

· Submit applications to any state committees or task forces that are established. Now is the time for our best people to become involved.

· Work with recreation leadership to encourage appropriate applicants for positions on the national committee. The deadline for applications is 45 days from May 5.



Finally, organized recreation advocates have long been, and will continue to be, fully engaged in this process and the fight for our ongoing access to Roadless Areas. Be aware of their requests for financial or other assistance, and provide them this assistance according to your means and qualifications.



This will be a lot of work for everyone in the recreation community who has Roadless Areas in their state. It is a tremendous opportunity to tell our story, and we cannot afford to leave that story untold.
 
Ed,

I think I understand the concept of a "Roadless Area." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it's an area in which the USFS maps show no roads. Not necessarily that there aren't roads in the area, only that maps don't show any USFS inventoried road.

These are the Inventoried Roadless Areas catagories shown on this map.
Inventoried Roadless Area where road construction or reconstruction is allowed.

Inventoried Roadless Area where road construction or reconstruction is not allowed.

Inventoried Roadless Area where road construction or reconstruction is not allowed, and the forest plan recommends as wilderness.

Designated Areas outside of Inventoried Roadless Areas.

National Forest System lands outside of Inventoried Roadless Areas - not all private land is shown on the map.​


What I don't understand are the distinctions between the last two.
 
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